Hand made wheels for winter bike

muzzan
muzzan Posts: 203
edited October 2013 in Road beginners
Hi,

So, as the time comes to pack away my good bike for the winter its dawned on me I will have to go on some longer runs with club etc on my winter bike (Boardman CX) which has really only been a commuter up till now. Bit worried about the difference this will make, so have started thinking about ways to improve the boardman. A place nearby has a decent rep (recommended by club mates) & is offering to make a set of handmade wheels for about £200.

So my question is... will this make a significant difference on longer rides? Or am I better to just stick with the OEM wheels till they actually need replacing? Good training & all that....

Ta
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Comments

  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,339
    £200 quid will buy you a decent set of wheels.

    http://www.wigglestatic.com/product-med ... h=2000&a=7

    or

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-rs10-clincher-wheelset/

    Why handbuilt ? Are you 17 stone ? Are you strong as Cav ?
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • muzzan
    muzzan Posts: 203
    I must say, I had no idea you needed to be one of those things to consider hand builts, and I am neither, though closer to the 1st than the 2nd that is for sure (bit under 12st).

    Should also mention that the bike has disc brakes so that rather narrows down the options for off the shelf. I am considering the Kinesis Crosslights as I read some on here say good things about them.
  • You don't need to be either of those things to buy handbuilt wheels you just need to be someone who wants to keep a set of wheels rather than get rid of them when they need repairing. I don't know the Crosslights myself but they do look fairly light and this would concern me a little. I am sure I have read that disc brakes put extra strain on the wheels and 32H should be the bare minimum (they are 28H) for safety reasons.

    I would stick with the stock wheels for a few runs at least and see how you fare or get you local shop to build you some on the basis that:
    i) they know you
    ii) they are aware of your riding
    iii) they have a reputation within your club to uphold
    iv) if the wheels have problems they will fix them
  • The Crosslight are OK, but they cost the same as a bespoke set made with Novatec 711/712 hubs (the same hubs), better spokes, like Dt swiss or Sapim (Crosslight use Pillar) and a rim that you can actually replace in case of a crash (Crosslight do not provide spare rims).
    I recently had to rebuild a crashed Crosslight, and had to use a different rim

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/561

    So you might as well get them built on these rims in the first place
    left the forum March 2023
  • jotko
    jotko Posts: 457
    I am in same boat as OP and doing pretty much exactly as Ugo states above.

    Novatec 711/712 hubs on Mavic Open Pro CD rims.

    Wanted them built locally so am getting them built by LBS (Cadence Bath) - picking them up tomorrow.

    Total price of parts and build ~£260
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,339
    You don't need to be either of those things to buy handbuilt wheels you just need to be someone who wants to keep a set of wheels rather than get rid of them when they need repairing...

    There's no need for that whatsoever Mr Night Porter (tell that Mr Jones bloke in number 12 to keep the bloody noise down).
    Just replaced my bearings and cones on my Euruses that have done at least 10k (miles). There's a flat spot on the rear after I hit a pothole because some tw4t driver wouldn't give me room round a bottomless puddle but apart from that, hardly throwaway and having had many handbuilt wheelsets, they are very stiff and not as forgiving as say G3 pattern campag.

    My last set was Mavic Sup 2 Reflex (32 DB spokes) on Campag Titanium hubs. Yes they had re-sale value and were perfect when I sold them for £147 on flea bay, yes they were bullet proof but F*ck me they were uncomfortable and on our roads that seem to be deteriorating all the time...

    cont...P94
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • Initialised
    Initialised Posts: 3,047
    I've been looking for disc specific road rims (i.e. no rim brake track) what are the options?
    I used to just ride my bike to work but now I find myself going out looking for bigger and bigger hills.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    You don't need to be either of those things to buy handbuilt wheels you just need to be someone who wants to keep a set of wheels rather than get rid of them when they need repairing...

    There's no need for that whatsoever Mr Night Porter (tell that Mr Jones bloke in number 12 to keep the bloody noise down).
    Just replaced my bearings and cones on my Euruses that have done at least 10k (miles). There's a flat spot on the rear after I hit a pothole because some tw4t driver wouldn't give me room round a bottomless puddle but apart from that, hardly throwaway and having had many handbuilt wheelsets, they are very stiff and not as forgiving as say G3 pattern campag.

    Yeah, but you dealt that ball back to yourself by implying that handbuilts are not "decent" wheels. :wink:

    Not that I don't agree with you that the presumption that factory wheels are disposable is fair either. I've also replaced the bearings (wheel and hub - sealed in this case) in set of Khamsins that have probably done about 12,000 miles in all weathers. I think there is still plenty of mileage in them but the cost was minimal anyway (less than £15 for six bearings). But, you are still kippered if you bend a rim - eg less than £20 for a replacement rim for a handbuilt and, if you can assemble the spokes yourself, £10 to get it trued and tensioned vs several hundred quid for a new wheelset (because, perish the thought that even if you accept the comedy prices for eg Campag rims and decide that a new wheel is a better bet, you could actually buy a single front or rear wheel rather than an entire wheelset......). They really should be ashamed of themselves.

    I wouldn't even grudge the high cost of the spokes - it's the fact that one pothole is enough to pretty much write a wheelset off even if virtually new.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • jotko
    jotko Posts: 457
    jotko wrote:
    I am in same boat as OP and doing pretty much exactly as Ugo states above.

    Novatec 711/712 hubs on Mavic Open Pro CD rims.

    Wanted them built locally so am getting them built by LBS (Cadence Bath) - picking them up tomorrow.

    Total price of parts and build ~£260

    Just picked these up - will give them a weigh and post up some photos laters.

    Exact price was:

    Hubs = £87 ($140)
    Rims = £84 (CRC, using £10 off offer)
    Spokes = £32 (builders choice, not sure what they were, will check)
    Build = £60
    Total = £263

    So, basically exactly the same as Kinesis Crosslights.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,339
    Rolf F wrote:
    You don't need to be either of those things to buy handbuilt wheels you just need to be someone who wants to keep a set of wheels rather than get rid of them when they need repairing...

    There's no need...

    Yeah, but you dealt that ball back to yourself by implying that handbuilts are not "decent" wheels. :wink:

    I didn't - you got the wrong end of the stick. There was a time long ago when handbuilts were everything. In terms of value for money, factory built are excellent. I do agree that Campag (beyond bearings and cones) prices are silly, but tbh, they are so strong, it would be rare thing to replace a rim or hub.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    I don't really see the issue. OK your bike might be a bit heavier than the best bike - but most people will be doing the same. Weight doesn't make that much difference once the bike is rolling anyway.

    What tyres have you got ? I'd be looking at that first rather than buying wheels that I might not need anyway.

    I ride a very heavy fixed wheel in winter. It doesnt make that much difference TBH.
  • jotko
    jotko Posts: 457
    jotko wrote:
    jotko wrote:
    I am in same boat as OP and doing pretty much exactly as Ugo states above.

    Novatec 711/712 hubs on Mavic Open Pro CD rims.

    Wanted them built locally so am getting them built by LBS (Cadence Bath) - picking them up tomorrow.

    Total price of parts and build ~£260

    Just picked these up - will give them a weigh and post up some photos laters.

    Exact price was:

    Hubs = £87 ($140)
    Rims = £84 (CRC, using £10 off offer)
    Spokes = £32 (builders choice, not sure what they were, will check)
    Build = £60
    Total = £263

    So, basically exactly the same as Kinesis Crosslights.

    10172105724_89947d7799.jpg10172219295_0e30a4737d.jpg

    Weighed in at 1835g with rim tape on my crappy kitchen scales.

    Not bad at all for 32 spoke disc wheels,
  • Nice ones...

    And these ain't bad either... 8)

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/571
    left the forum March 2023
  • andrewjoseph
    andrewjoseph Posts: 2,165
    I've been looking for disc specific road rims (i.e. no rim brake track) what are the options?

    I've put halo aerowarrior 36h rims on hope mtb hubs for our road/tourers. No issues after 12,000km and weigh about 1.6kg f&r without cassette or rim tape.
    --
    Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails
  • muzzan
    muzzan Posts: 203
    cougie wrote:
    I don't really see the issue. OK your bike might be a bit heavier than the best bike - but most people will be doing the same. Weight doesn't make that much difference once the bike is rolling anyway.

    What tyres have you got ? I'd be looking at that first rather than buying wheels that I might not need anyway.

    I ride a very heavy fixed wheel in winter. It doesnt make that much difference TBH.

    This is what I sort of suspect. As we know, Strava doesn't lie :wink:, and on most flattish bits around me the CX is every bit as quick as the Canyon, its only the hills that I see a significant difference & as you say, everyone will basically be in the same boat. Think I will give the club runs a go on the CX & see how it goes.

    Got Conti 4 seasons (25mm) on the CX, so far they've been great, hopefully they will see me through the winter.
  • jotko
    jotko Posts: 457
    I've been looking for disc specific road rims (i.e. no rim brake track) what are the options?

    I've put halo aerowarrior 36h rims on hope mtb hubs for our road/tourers. No issues after 12,000km and weigh about 1.6kg f&r without cassette or rim tape.

    How do you manage that weight?

    The rims alone are 545g each?

    + 72 spokes
    + hubs??
  • robbo2011
    robbo2011 Posts: 1,017
    muzzan wrote:
    This is what I sort of suspect. As we know, Strava doesn't lie :wink:, and on most flattish bits around me the CX is every bit as quick as the Canyon, its only the hills that I see a significant difference & as you say, everyone will basically be in the same boat. Think I will give the club runs a go on the CX & see how it goes.

    Strava doesn't lie indeed. Weight makes a significant difference where I ride. It is measurable on Strava both on climbs and on overall average speed. I am between 1-2kmh slower average speed on my winter CX bike (11kg) compared to my summer bike (7kg). I usually ride over 1000m of elevation gain each ride though. On flatter rides, there would be a much smaller gap.
  • jordan_217
    jordan_217 Posts: 2,580
    I'm building my first set of wheels next w'end. They'll go on my CX bike for Winter training and commuting.

    Hubs - Shimano 105 5700 (32h)
    Rims - Ambrosio Evolution
    Spokes - Alpina ACI SS/DB, with brass nipples.

    I'm building them on a wheel building course and including all the components and price of the course I hope to end up with a decent set of wheels for less than £200. Although, I'm building them, so quality is debatable...
    “Training is like fighting with a gorilla. You don’t stop when you’re tired. You stop when the gorilla is tired.”
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    robbo2011 wrote:
    Strava doesn't lie indeed. Weight makes a significant difference where I ride. It is measurable on Strava both on climbs and on overall average speed. I am between 1-2kmh slower average speed on my winter CX bike (11kg) compared to my summer bike (7kg). I usually ride over 1000m of elevation gain each ride though. On flatter rides, there would be a much smaller gap.

    Do you ride your winter bike in the winter? When it's colder?............ :wink:
    Faster than a tent.......
  • andrewjoseph
    andrewjoseph Posts: 2,165
    jotko wrote:
    I've been looking for disc specific road rims (i.e. no rim brake track) what are the options?

    I've put halo aerowarrior 36h rims on hope mtb hubs for our road/tourers. No issues after 12,000km and weigh about 1.6kg f&r without cassette or rim tape.

    How do you manage that weight?

    The rims alone are 545g each?

    + 72 spokes
    + hubs??

    Dunno, just what the kitchen scales say... might have been minus the hub though.
    --
    Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    "Dunno, just what the kitchen scales say... might have been minus the hub though"

    How on earth do you weigh a wheel without it's hub??
  • Nice ones...

    And these ain't bad either... 8)

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/571


    Nice - but how much.......?
  • andrewjoseph
    andrewjoseph Posts: 2,165
    keef66 wrote:
    "Dunno, just what the kitchen scales say... might have been minus the hub though"

    How on earth do you weigh a wheel without it's hub??

    Meant the free hub :oops:
    --
    Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails
  • Nice ones...

    And these ain't bad either... 8)

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/571


    Nice - but how much.......?

    Less than that... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • robbo2011
    robbo2011 Posts: 1,017
    Rolf F wrote:
    Do you ride your winter bike in the winter? When it's colder?............ :wink:


    When I say winter bike, I actually mean 'roads not completely dry' bike. I take it out in summer too. Yes, and there is a significant and consistent difference between the bikes.

    Most of you guys in the UK won't even notice as you don't really do any climbing. However, when you are regularly doing climbs lasting 30-60 min or more, it becomes very obvious.

    Anyway, back to handbuilt wheels..
  • Initialised
    Initialised Posts: 3,047
    After reading about the trend for wide rims I'm thinking some 29er wheels would fit the bill for a winter wheelset with the advantage that you could fit Schwalbe Winters (assuming they'll fit in your forks).
    I used to just ride my bike to work but now I find myself going out looking for bigger and bigger hills.
  • After reading about the trend for wide rims I'm thinking some 29er wheels would fit the bill for a winter wheelset with the advantage that you could fit Schwalbe Winters (assuming they'll fit in your forks).

    That provided you succeed in fitting a 700c tyre on a 29er rim, which is not a given... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • Initialised
    Initialised Posts: 3,047
    After reading about the trend for wide rims I'm thinking some 29er wheels would fit the bill for a winter wheelset with the advantage that you could fit Schwalbe Winters (assuming they'll fit in your forks).

    That provided you succeed in fitting a 700c tyre on a 29er rim, which is not a given... :wink:

    Rim diameter of both is 622mm why would it be a problem assuming standards are followed.

    Might have to post this in the MTB section.
    I used to just ride my bike to work but now I find myself going out looking for bigger and bigger hills.
  • After reading about the trend for wide rims I'm thinking some 29er wheels would fit the bill for a winter wheelset with the advantage that you could fit Schwalbe Winters (assuming they'll fit in your forks).

    That provided you succeed in fitting a 700c tyre on a 29er rim, which is not a given... :wink:

    Rim diameter of both is 622mm why would it be a problem assuming standards are followed.

    Might have to post this in the MTB section.

    Well, you can try for yourself... fitting a 700c tyre on a 29er rim is a grey area... might work or might not work, it's really a trial and error and there are no rules. Sometimes can be straightforward, other times impossible, other times so hard that you don't want to have to do it on the road...
    left the forum March 2023
  • Initialised
    Initialised Posts: 3,047
    After reading about the trend for wide rims I'm thinking some 29er wheels would fit the bill for a winter wheelset with the advantage that you could fit Schwalbe Winters (assuming they'll fit in your forks).

    That provided you succeed in fitting a 700c tyre on a 29er rim, which is not a given... :wink:

    Rim diameter of both is 622mm why would it be a problem assuming standards are followed.

    Might have to post this in the MTB section.

    Well, you can try for yourself... fitting a 700c tyre on a 29er rim is a grey area... might work or might not work, it's really a trial and error and there are no rules. Sometimes can be straightforward, other times impossible, other times so hard that you don't want to have to do it on the road...

    I tend to use folders so I can use warm water to soften the tyre and pray that any punctures I pick up are slow. Failing that I could always shave a mm or two off the edge of the rim.

    It sound like something to try before committing too. From what I can work out anything up to 20mm internal rim should accept 23mm unless it's wired.
    I used to just ride my bike to work but now I find myself going out looking for bigger and bigger hills.