Merkcx

clanton

He was obviously well before my time but the more I watch modern racing the more in awe I become of his achievements. To be so dominant in both one day events and the grand tours for such a fairly sustained period of time is simply phenomenal. Not only his talent but his motivation to keep winning when he'd done it all. No "modern" rider has come anywhere near his achievements even for a single year let alone for a career.

Ok - Marianne Vos is probably fairly close but the level of competition I think is not comparable.

specialgueststar

I dont think you can make a direct comparison - too many 'factors' at work in the Merkcz' era

RichN95.

clanton wrote:

Ok - Marianne Vos is probably fairly close but the level of competition I think is not comparable.

I think, in fact, the level of competition may be fairly similar.

Bo Duke

The Badger is probably the last of that ilk.

clanton

RichN95 wrote:

clanton wrote:

Ok - Marianne Vos is probably fairly close but the level of competition I think is not comparable.

I think, in fact, the level of competition may be fairly similar.

Rich there are far fewer woman pros than men and the money is nowhere near equivalent - attracting fewer competitors. Top woman athletes who might have been cyclists are probably going to other sports where they money is better. the strength in depth is not the same and I think that will affect the level of the top pros.

Vos is incredible, no doubt about it but Merckx was up against the likes of De Vlaeminck, Maertens et al.

RichN95.

clanton wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

clanton wrote:

Ok - Marianne Vos is probably fairly close but the level of competition I think is not comparable.

I think, in fact, the level of competition may be fairly similar.

Rich there are far fewer woman pros than men and the money is nowhere near equivalent - attracting fewer competitors. Top woman athletes who might have been cyclists are probably going to other sports where they money is better. the strength in depth is not the same and I think that will affect the level of the top pros.

Vos is incredible, no doubt about it but Merckx was up against the likes of De Vlaeminck, Maertens et al.

This illustrates my point. Merckx was up against DeVlaeminck, a Belgian, and Maertens, another Belgian. Have a look at some of the Monuments Merckx won back then - there's usually seven or eight Belgians in the top ten. The northern classics were glorified Belgian championships. From 1968-1976 37 of the 45 monuments were won by Belgians. Merckx only raced against riders from about four countries. The strength in depth wasn't that great.

clanton

Not sure I agree Rich. Yes the Belgians have always gone in for the Monuments and other Classics - but they attracted the big names like Merckx, Hinault, Moser etc then too. When last did we see a Tour or Giro winner take a proper tilt at Paris Roubaix or Flanders?

He also won three World Champs jerseys, hardly a Belgian only affair!

RichN95.

clanton wrote:

Not sure I agree Rich. Yes the Belgians have always gone in for the Monuments and other Classics - but they attracted the big names like Merckx, Hinault, Moser etc then too. When last did we see a Tour or Giro winner take a proper tilt at Paris Roubaix or Flanders?

They don't, because the depth in talent is so much greater that a rider who is best at one is longer the best at the other.
In Merckx's last Tour win there were 130 riders. 124 came from the big five nations.
In the last two years, monuments and grand tours have been won by riders from Australia, Germany, Britain, Kenya, Ireland, Canada, USA, Switzerland and Kazakhstan (as well as Italy, Belgium and Spain).

Women's cycling now is very much like men's cycling back in the day in terms of it's talent pool. If Merckx was riding today he wouldn't win a third of what he did back then.

clanton wrote:

He also won three World Champs jerseys, hardly a Belgian only affair!

From 1967-1976 only one rider from outside the big five nations made the Worlds podium. In the last ten years 50% (15 of 30) have been from outside those nations. Belgium didn't even get a full quota of riders this year.

RichN95.

Double post

Macaloon

RichN95 wrote:

In the last two years, monuments and grand tours have been won by riders from Australia, Germany, Britain, Kenya, Ireland, Canada, USA, Switzerland and Kazakhstan (as well as Italy, Belgium and Spain).

RichN95.

Macaloon wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

In the last two years, monuments and grand tours have been won by riders from Australia, Germany, Britain, Kenya, Ireland, Canada, USA, Switzerland and Kazakhstan (as well as Italy, Belgium and Spain).

Well it is where he actually comes from, which for the sake of my argument is more pertinant than the flag he has chosen to rider under.

davidof

clanton wrote:

Ok - Marianne Vos is probably fairly close but the level of competition I think is not comparable.

Certainly if you watch the Stars and Watercarriers you could imagine Vos being able to keep up, maybe even take a stage.

clanton

RichN95 wrote:

clanton wrote:

Not sure I agree Rich. Yes the Belgians have always gone in for the Monuments and other Classics - but they attracted the big names like Merckx, Hinault, Moser etc then too. When last did we see a Tour or Giro winner take a proper tilt at Paris Roubaix or Flanders?

They don't, because the depth in talent is so much greater that a rider who is best at one is longer the best at the other.
In Merckx's last Tour win there were 130 riders. 124 came from the big five nations.
In the last two years, monuments and grand tours have been won by riders from Australia, Germany, Britain, Kenya, Ireland, Canada, USA, Switzerland and Kazakhstan (as well as Italy, Belgium and Spain).

Women's cycling now is very much like men's cycling back in the day in terms of it's talent pool. If Merckx was riding today he wouldn't win a third of what he did back then.

clanton wrote:

He also won three World Champs jerseys, hardly a Belgian only affair!

From 1967-1976 only one rider from outside the big five nations made the Worlds podium. In the last ten years 50% (15 of 30) have been from outside those nations. Belgium didn't even get a full quota of riders this year.

Some valid points there Rich. Looking at it from that point of view I agree that maybe he would not have been as dominant now. That said you can only beat the competition you are faced with - so we can't say he would have only won a third of what he did. I still think the breadth of his talent was amazing - de Vlaeminck, Museeuw never won grand tours for example. Merkcx won on the track, NINETEEN monuments, 11 Grand Tours, 3 Worlds etc etc etc. I know these facts will be well known to you - but just listing them emphasizes how much he did win.

Macaloon

RichN95 wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

In the last two years, monuments and grand tours have been won by riders from Australia, Germany, Britain, Kenya, Ireland, Canada, USA, Switzerland and Kazakhstan (as well as Italy, Belgium and Spain).

Well it is where he actually comes from, which for the sake of my argument is more pertinant than the flag he has chosen to rider under.

Completely agree. And as soon as he comes out with it the better for those who admire his talent regardless of his passport. In the real world, the convoluted funding of Sky, BC and the Olympian quest for Brit winners means his inner-Kenyan* may remain caged till retirement. Which would be a shame since it's probably a much more interesting tale than someone brought through the BC ranks.

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxdxk0RpBQg
Early Super8 of the Froome family compound

RichN95.

clanton wrote:

Some valid points there Rich. Looking at it from that point of view I agree that maybe he would not have been as dominant now. That said you can only beat the competition you are faced with - so we can't say he would have only won a third of what he did. I still think the breadth of his talent was amazing - de Vlaeminck, Museeuw never won grand tours for example. Merkcx won on the track, NINETEEN monuments, 11 Grand Tours, 3 Worlds etc etc etc. I know these facts will be well known to you - but just listing them emphasizes how much he did win.

Look, I'm not saying he was rubbish. He clearly wasn't. Ask me who the greatest cyclist of all time is and I'll say Merckx. All I'm saying is that the talent pool he was racing against was more similar to the modern day women's scene than the men's.

Richmond Racer

Macaloon wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

In the last two years, monuments and grand tours have been won by riders from Australia, Germany, Britain, Kenya, Ireland, Canada, USA, Switzerland and Kazakhstan (as well as Italy, Belgium and Spain).

Well it is where he actually comes from, which for the sake of my argument is more pertinant than the flag he has chosen to rider under.

Completely agree. And as soon as he comes out with it the better for those who admire his talent regardless of his passport. In the real world, the convoluted funding of Sky, BC and the Olympian quest for Brit winners means his inner-Kenyan* may remain caged till retirement. Which would be a shame since it's probably a much more interesting tale than someone brought through the BC ranks.

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxdxk0RpBQg
Early Super8 of the Froome family compound

His history is hardly kept hidden. It was all covered in articles up to, during and post the Tour, even down to the names of his pet pythons, and being chased by hippos and the like.

FocusZing

"Cyclists live with pain, if you can't handle it you
will win nothing," he told me earlier this week.
"If you don't want to suffer, take up another
sport. Winning big Tours and stage races is often
about pain management. When the terrible
accident occurred at least I escaped with my
life. I was the lucky one, that was my reaction. I
was positive and having worked so hard to
succeed in cycling I was determined not to give
up.
"I was only young and the injuries were to haunt
me for the rest of my career but I got through. I
had to adjust my position on the saddle and I
was always needing massages and manipulation.
But I got through. In the end I grew
philosophical. I could still turn the pedals, the
bike still went quick. Not as quick, but still very
quick. The only difference between me and my
opponents was that I started most races in pain,
they hit the wall three-quarters through or at
the top of a big climb.
"I began to use it to my advantage. Being in
pain from the start made me sharp and on edge
and well motivated. I had no fear of what lay
ahead. I was already suffering. My opponents
had all that to look 'forward' to but they didn't
know when it would ambush them in the race.
"Sometimes,also, it was very bad and it was as if
I raced so fast just to get the race over so I
could stretch out on the floor or the bed to get
comfortable. The mind can overcome great
setbacks and make a person very strong."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... -Eddy.html

greasedscotsman

RichN95 wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

In the last two years, monuments and grand tours have been won by riders from Australia, Germany, Britain, Kenya, Ireland, Canada, USA, Switzerland and Kazakhstan (as well as Italy, Belgium and Spain).

Well it is where he actually comes from, which for the sake of my argument is more pertinant than the flag he has chosen to rider under.

So you shouldn't have Ireland on that list then!

RichN95.

greasedscotsman wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

In the last two years, monuments and grand tours have been won by riders from Australia, Germany, Britain, Kenya, Ireland, Canada, USA, Switzerland and Kazakhstan (as well as Italy, Belgium and Spain).

Well it is where he actually comes from, which for the sake of my argument is more pertinant than the flag he has chosen to rider under.

So you shouldn't have Ireland on that list then!

Yeah, I didn't think of that.

Yellow Peril

RichN95 wrote:

clanton wrote:

Some valid points there Rich. Looking at it from that point of view I agree that maybe he would not have been as dominant now. That said you can only beat the competition you are faced with - so we can't say he would have only won a third of what he did. I still think the breadth of his talent was amazing - de Vlaeminck, Museeuw never won grand tours for example. Merkcx won on the track, NINETEEN monuments, 11 Grand Tours, 3 Worlds etc etc etc. I know these facts will be well known to you - but just listing them emphasizes how much he did win.

Look, I'm not saying he was rubbish. He clearly wasn't. Ask me who the greatest cyclist of all time is and I'll say Merckx. All I'm saying is that the talent pool he was racing against was more similar to the modern day women's scene than the men's.

I think relatively speaking you are right. Vos's dominance in female cycling is similar to that of Merckx. I think somebody mentioned further up that they could imagine Vos taking a GT stage back in the day. I wouldn't go that far. Distances could be longer equipment heavier and all the ridiculous rules about how where or when you could take a bottle created a different approach to racing. also bear in mind no radios so no one to fdo the thinking for you.

clanton

RichN95 wrote:

clanton wrote:

Some valid points there Rich. Looking at it from that point of view I agree that maybe he would not have been as dominant now. That said you can only beat the competition you are faced with - so we can't say he would have only won a third of what he did. I still think the breadth of his talent was amazing - de Vlaeminck, Museeuw never won grand tours for example. Merkcx won on the track, NINETEEN monuments, 11 Grand Tours, 3 Worlds etc etc etc. I know these facts will be well known to you - but just listing them emphasizes how much he did win.

Look, I'm not saying he was rubbish. He clearly wasn't. Ask me who the greatest cyclist of all time is and I'll say Merckx. All I'm saying is that the talent pool he was racing against was more similar to the modern day women's scene than the men's.

Well Rich I think you've made some intelligent points and put a spin on it that I hadn't considered. Food for thought.

Macaloon

Richmond Racer wrote:

His history is hardly kept hidden. It was all covered in articles up to, during and post the Tour, even down to the names of his pet pythons, and being chased by hippos and the like.

Yep. I'm only suggesting that if he rode under the Kenyan flag he would attract much less bile.On the other hand, when Sean Yates discovered him, he wasn't just wild, he was livid. Here's Yatesy teaching Froomie how to ride in a bunch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rht64izLQg

mike6

Macaloon wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

His history is hardly kept hidden. It was all covered in articles up to, during and post the Tour, even down to the names of his pet pythons, and being chased by hippos and the like.

Yep. I'm only suggesting that if he rode under the Kenyan flag he would attract much less bile.On the other hand, when Sean Yates discovered him, he wasn't just wild, he was livid. Here's Yatesy teaching Froomie how to ride in a bunch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rht64izLQg

Not that this has anything to do with the thread, but my tale on the Froome debate. So what. He has a British passport,his parents were British. He even chose to ride for Britain, that should make him even more acceptable. The rest of us Brits were merely born here, we had no choice. He did, so that makes him even more laudable.

inseine

You'd think the title of a thread about the greatest cyclist ever would at least spell his name right :shock:

BenderRodriguez

Some interesting points being made here. However, I would say that the size of the pool that Merckx was swimming in was still vastly greater than the one Vos is swimming in today. True enough, more nations are involved today, but back in Merckx's time bike racing was practically an obsession in many European countries and many more people were racing seriously than is the case today, even if the financial state of the sport back then meant that there were fewer people who actually made a living as a fully-fledged pro.

I know people who raced as 'amateurs' on the continent back then and the size of the racing scene was many times bigger than today, with plenty of people making good money and even preferring to stay as 'amateurs' as they knew they would make more cash than if they turned pro.

Things are probably not much different in the UK, with the Premier calendar / Star trophy series being a much bigger affair 20- 30 years ago than it is now, with UK domestic racing being in a right sorry state.

Abdoujaparov

clanton wrote:

Ok - Marianne Vos is probably fairly close but the level of competition I think is not comparable.

If she has a weakness relative to Merckx isn't it in her stage racing GC palmares? She's only 26 though.

mike6

Merckx? best pro cyclist ever, so far. His palmares will probably never be beaten. As for the remark that he was riding against weak opposition, get real. How many real GT contenders are there today?
If you take into consideration he raced for almost 12 months of the year, usually rode at least 2 GTs, all the classics and monuments, the Worlds and then the 6 day track at the end of the year, he is incomparable.

Also he rode every event to win, none of your poncey "Im doing this for training". If he pinned on a number he was there to be beaten. Most of his wins were gained after his debilitating crash that displaced his pelvis, leaving him in constant pain on the bike. He was a marked man in every race and still pulled out a win almost every third event he rode. Comparing the opposition of that time to women's racing now is disrespectful and just plaid wrong. It was harder then. For a lot of young guys in France, Belgium, Holland, Spain and Italy it was the route out of subsistence farming and the competition for a contract was fierce, so every rider rode hard, or got kicked out.

clanton

inseine wrote:

You'd think the title of a thread about the greatest cyclist ever would at least spell his name right :shock:

I can spell. I can't type.

RichN95.

mike6 wrote:

Merckx? best pro cyclist ever, so far. His palmares will probably never be beaten. As for the remark that he was riding against weak opposition, get real. How many real GT contenders are there today?
If you take into consideration he raced for almost 12 months of the year, usually rode at least 2 GTs, all the classics and monuments, the Worlds and then the 6 day track at the end of the year, he is incomparable.

Also he rode every event to win, none of your poncey "Im doing this for training". If he pinned on a number he was there to be beaten. Most of his wins were gained after his debilitating crash that displaced his pelvis, leaving him in constant pain on the bike. He was a marked man in every race and still pulled out a win almost every third event he rode. Comparing the opposition of that time to women's racing now is disrespectful and just plaid wrong. It was harder then. For a lot of young guys in France, Belgium, Holland, Spain and Italy it was the route out of subsistence farming and the competition for a contract was fierce, so every rider rode hard, or got kicked out.

So if we took the current peloton then excluded all the riders who don't come the big five nations, slash wages so it's a less attractive career, reduce team budgets so they only have one star rider each and then regionialise the calendar more so all but half a dozen teams rarely ride outside their own country, then you think the standard would somehow go up? Why? Because you've bought into some overblown nostalgic prose?

TheBigBean

So, of the current riders, who do you think would be able to win all 5 monuments? I think Sagan might be able to, but that's it.

deejay

mike6 wrote:

Merckx? best pro cyclist ever, so far. His palmares will probably never be beaten.

Also he rode every event to win, none of your poncey "Im doing this for training". If he pinned on a number he was there to be beaten.

Absolutely correct with that post
RichN99 seems he would agree but raised a fair point for these modern day riders but no one has mentioned if Vos could ride with that equipment and over constant "Pave" and gravel roads where punctures happened more often.
Domestiques happened because of the need to keep their Leader mobile and fed and this has led to the modern day "Trains" we see today.
Would these riders from other continents still be as keen to ride in a peloton that Merckx did. :?:
There used to be a lot more to riding a bike and looking after oneself than today's riders have to.

An Interesting thread.