Friday: Farage, Cleg and could you vote UKIP?

DonDaddyD

Listening to LBC today, I was greeted with 30mins of Nigel Farage.

He worries me, he preys on fears and frustrations and reassures with cool ideas that, while extreme, are entirely feasible.

Lets take Europe for example, Farage would have England leave the EU, setting up a proper trade agreement in the process, and then focus on developing the Commonwealth and establishing free trade within that. That's appealing, immigration laws would still stand and the Country would benefit from freetrade with some incredibly wealthy developing Countries - with our Queen as Head of State. Rule Britannia.

Edit: Any way I want to look at it, its appealing and I'm not sure England would be less wealthy - in the long run - if this action would be taken. For the Great Unwashed, who walk the tight rope between prejudice and racism, Farage's stance reassures against their perception of the influx of Eastern Europeans (they've moved on from 'Polish people' and Hungarians to Romanians, Bulgarians and Romany Gypsys) who are destroying the British way of life and taking all the low paid jobs. Farage also makes the point that many of the Commonwealth Countries actually speak English and understand the British way of life - given the encounters I've had with some EE's* - I'm nearly etching UKIP into my forearm.

And that's the worry about Farage, the man is infectious, he is like Boris Johnson - In the first instance I'll probably disagree with Boris on every single political point, but I like him, so I'll listen and through that I'll be persuaded.

I can see UKIP making huge leaps in British politics this coming election, so I ask:

Would you vote for them?
Are you already decided will/won't vote for them?
Why?

Also, is Clegg the greatest political leader of his generation? He has less MPs than probably every Lib Dem leader before him, and yet is in Government with a disproportionate percetage on the Cabinet and a hell of a lot of his parties polices passed through parliament - LBC would have you believe 75% of the parties policies/manifesto. I think he has actually achieved more than all the other Party Leaders.

*Its not always racism that I've (and my son, Girlfriend) encountered from people from Eastern European, most times its more ignorance, a lack of cultural awareness/understanding and a reliance on stereotyping to form opinions. Talking to some people from Eastern European Countries and its like I've stepped into the early 90s or the 70s and 80s that my parents talked about. I've also found that many actually don't like this Country and have no respect or show little tolerance for the immediate social culture here. Others have been completely safe and I really like them.

Discuss

walkingbootweather

I hadn't realized that UKIP stood for the English Independent Party

simonhead

Never vote for them, some of what they say makes a little sense but much of it is misguided.

phil s

I don't really understand your point about Eastern Europeans. "Eastern Europe" is a large and diverse area. Who are you talking about here, or are you just lumping them all into one homogenous group? Are you willing to paint in such broad brush strokes about Africans or Arabs, for example?

arran77

This is even more bleak than daviesee's attempt at starting a Friday mass debate.

SteppenHerring

DonDaddyD wrote:

Listening to LBC today, I was greeted with 30mins of Nigel Farage.

He worries me, he preys on fears and frustrations and reassures with cool ideas that, while extreme, are entirely feasible.

Unfortunately his ideas aren't feasible at all.

Look at Norway and Switzerland as a couple of examples of countries that are in the free trade area but outside of the EU proper. They both still need to follow the rules about product standards, they need to follow the rules about free movement of capital, they need to follow the rules about free movement of people and they still pay for the privilege - even though they don't get a vote.

You can't have a free trade area without product standards - when choosing whether to buy $THING from Italy or Poland you need to know that $THING is made to the same standards in both places. Sure it leads to standards that the tabloids mock and exaggerate, but that's the way it goes.

The man is an idiot.

aberdeen_lune

Roll on 18th September 2014 so we can get away from these eejits.

Kieran_Burns

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

Roll on 18th September 2014 so we can get away from these eejits.

Indeed.... http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/ they're hoping the English will get their own Parliament.

il_principe

DonDaddyD wrote:

Any way I want to look at it, its appealing and I'm not sure England would be less wealthy - in the long run - if this action would be taken. For the Great Unwashed, who walk the tight rope between prejudice and racism, this begins to reassure against the influx of Eastern Europeans (we've moved on from 'Polish people' and Hungarians to Romanians, Bulgarians and Romany Gypsys) who are destroying the British way of life and taking all the low paid jobs. Farage also makes the point that many of the Commonwealth Countries actually speak English - given the encounters I've had with EE's* - I'm nearly etching UKIP into my forearm.

Wait, you don't actually mean this do you? I sincerely hope you don't.

daviesee

Nice to see you getting back in the swing of things. :P

arran77

Il Principe wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Any way I want to look at it, its appealing and I'm not sure England would be less wealthy - in the long run - if this action would be taken. For the Great Unwashed, who walk the tight rope between prejudice and racism, this begins to reassure against the influx of Eastern Europeans (we've moved on from 'Polish people' and Hungarians to Romanians, Bulgarians and Romany Gypsys) who are destroying the British way of life and taking all the low paid jobs. Farage also makes the point that many of the Commonwealth Countries actually speak English - given the encounters I've had with EE's* - I'm nearly etching UKIP into my forearm.

Wait, you don't actually mean this do you? I sincerely hope you don't.

After yesterday, nothing would surprise me :P

DonDaddyD

Il Principe wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Any way I want to look at it, its appealing and I'm not sure England would be less wealthy - in the long run - if this action would be taken. For the Great Unwashed, who walk the tight rope between prejudice and racism, this begins to reassure against the influx of Eastern Europeans (we've moved on from 'Polish people' and Hungarians to Romanians, Bulgarians and Romany Gypsys) who are destroying the British way of life and taking all the low paid jobs. Farage also makes the point that many of the Commonwealth Countries actually speak English - given the encounters I've had with EE's* - I'm nearly etching UKIP into my forearm.

Wait, you don't actually mean this do you? I sincerely hope you don't.

Of course not. I was talking from the perspective of the Farage influence Great Unwashed.

il_principe

Really? Yet you go on to mention your encounters with "EE's"...

seanoconn

DonDaddyD wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Any way I want to look at it, its appealing and I'm not sure England would be less wealthy - in the long run - if this action would be taken. For the Great Unwashed, who walk the tight rope between prejudice and racism, this begins to reassure against the influx of Eastern Europeans (we've moved on from 'Polish people' and Hungarians to Romanians, Bulgarians and Romany Gypsys) who are destroying the British way of life and taking all the low paid jobs. Farage also makes the point that many of the Commonwealth Countries actually speak English - given the encounters I've had with EE's* - I'm nearly etching UKIP into my forearm.

Wait, you don't actually mean this do you? I sincerely hope you don't.

Of course not. I was talking from the perspective of the Farage influence Great Unwashed.

It's not entirely clear from this post as to whether you personally find Farage appealing and persuasive?

monkimark

Farage looks like a slug.

For that reason and many others besides, I'm out.

Kieran_Burns

Just read the UKIP's policies on cycling then decide.

veronese68

No. Farage is vile. He says anything he can to appeal to the masses with no real thought given as to how it would actually work in reality. If he ever got into power I think we would be in real trouble.
There are a few Eastern Europeans here and they have a far better work ethic than many of the young English* lads that work here. perhaps if the English were prepared to do some of the more menial jobs that they seem to consider below them it would help.

* I say English as that is the experience I have. I have no idea how the Welsh, Scots or Northern Irish are in this respect. I could narrow it down further but you get the drift.

CiB

As someone who wishes England was still like it was in 1908 with a decent king on the throne, an empire to run and not much in the way of social unrest as everyone either lived in a large English country house or worked in one, he'd probably get my vote. Trouble is we've all moved on to what we have now so whatever Mr Farrago imagines he could do given enough MPs, he's got no chance so Big Dave probably retains my vote, until Theresa steps in to fill his shoes then we'll have to take another look at the situatioin.

Do I win? A hint almost of possible casual racism, rose-tinted specs and an outright admission of being a Tory voter. :!:

Personally I would like to see a curtailment of immigration, not because it's Good Old Jonny Foreigner marching in taking our jobs and wimmin etc* and soaking up the benefits payments, it's the simple fact that the country's infrastructure can't cope with that rate of population increase.

*yes yes I know, (c) Daily Mail & all that...

veronese68

I once had a customer ranting at me about asylum seekers. It soon became clear he didn't mean asylum seekers but economic migrants from within Europe. At the end of his rant he told me if it carried on he was going to sell up and set up shop in France. I didn't have the heart, or the patience, to tell him that was exactly the sort of thing he'd been complaining about.

Yossie

Seriously? Someone here ois going to vote for the BNP - sorry, I mean UKIP.

FFS, people fought and died to protect us from fascist racist anti semitics and now you're considering voting them in?

Seriously guys, wake up and smell the coffee - as turgid as Cons/Labs/Libs are, they are a squillion times better than the half bred fools that are the BNP. I mean UKIP.

Please - vote anyone but them - they will hash everything and everyone up.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Farage* is dangerous. He appeals directly to one group at the expense of another. He has a directness and perhaps even a charm that many like. He clothes his message in ostensibly reasonable sounding language (cf Salmond, Livingstone). He's precisely the sort of extremist who pops up during economic hard times, and never for the better.

UKIP is a disaster area. It's a single policy party that has attracted a mass of swivel eyed loons ((c), not mine) to the flame of that policy. Get past a referendum (which they will lose, for better or worse) and you've got a collection of people pulling in different directions.

And, of course, UKIP splits the vote on the right, pushing power towards the left; the very thing it claims not to want. No matter how ambitious it is, it is and will remain a spoiler/protest party.

Clegg's a oddity. He takes a disproportionate amount of sh!t for not stopping the Tories in their tracks, and gets almost no credit for the LD policies he can get through. A year or two ago I thought he had genuinely killed the LDs stone cold. Now, I'm beginning to wonder whether he might be able to get close to holding the LD vote at the next election. The best thing for him is Miliband and Balls, who I think many wouldn't trust to run a sweet shop. With Cleggs being perceived as an ineffectual junior partner to the Tories, enough people might just be put off the idea of a Lab/LD coalition to result in another Con/LD coalition after the next election.


*Factoid. Farage was two years above me at school. Something I didn't know until a couple of weeks ago when the thing about him being called a fascist when being considered as a prefect blew up in the media. Not only don't I remember him, more oddly, I have no recollection whatsoever of a neo-fascist loudmouth character two years above (or at all) either. Yet somehow he managed to catch the eye of some of the teaching staff.
Another factoid is that when the MPs expenses scandal broke, the "best" MP - the one who'd claimed the least - was a name I recognised from the year above me at school. Pretty broad mix.

SteppenHerring

I think this sums it up.

Mikey23

I find the man insincere and repulsive. Sort of what would happen if Norman bates became a used car salesman. An interesting diversion for a mid term confidence vote but not to be taken too seriously beyond that. Unfortunately, there will always be people like him to appeal to the ignorant and politically naive...

Clegg, I don't have an opinion on... Which kind of sums him up really

First.Aspect

Its easy to be an appealing extremist minority politician. Just look at Boris Johnson. Its a bit trickier when it comes to the crunch and people start to look for some sort of coherent plan for stuff like people's lives or the economy. UKIP have a natural glass ceiling - somewhere about the height of a coffee table I think, and Nigel Roughage will come unstuck when the spotlight is shone on their policies as a whole, or on some of the other loonies in his party.

The strangest thing about UKIP is how DC seems to be worried that Nige will be made head boy, for some reason. Instead of trying to be chums with the Kippers gang, he should just let the rotter go on newnight and let Jezzer give him a bunch of fives.

ballysmate

We had a debate in Cake Stop some months back about UKIP, when I posted

Welcome to the world of politics. It's called 'Know your audience'.
UKIP saw that people were dissatisfied with the main parties' stance on Europe and filled the niche. If the main parties had paid more attention to the growing unease that a lot of voters felt about the direction that the EU was going, UKIP would never have got off the ground.
As I stated earlier, UKIP are a one trick pony, and a party of protest, but I understand why they have growing support.

The only thing that has changed is that UKIP are being taken more seriously now by the media after the local election results and are coming under scrutiny.

rick_chasey

Ballysmate wrote:

We had a debate in Cake Stop some months back about UKIP, when I posted

Welcome to the world of politics. It's called 'Know your audience'.
UKIP saw that people were dissatisfied with the main parties' stance on Europe and filled the niche. If the main parties had paid more attention to the growing unease that a lot of voters felt about the direction that the EU was going, UKIP would never have got off the ground.
As I stated earlier, UKIP are a one trick pony, and a party of protest, but I understand why they have growing support.

The only thing that has changed is that UKIP are being taken more seriously now by the media after the local election results and are coming under scrutiny.

Have you voted ukip?

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

We had a debate in Cake Stop some months back about UKIP, when I posted

Welcome to the world of politics. It's called 'Know your audience'.
UKIP saw that people were dissatisfied with the main parties' stance on Europe and filled the niche. If the main parties had paid more attention to the growing unease that a lot of voters felt about the direction that the EU was going, UKIP would never have got off the ground.
As I stated earlier, UKIP are a one trick pony, and a party of protest, but I understand why they have growing support.

The only thing that has changed is that UKIP are being taken more seriously now by the media after the local election results and are coming under scrutiny.

Have you voted ukip?

Not even entertained it, but understand why people are tempted.

DonDaddyD

Il Principe wrote:

Really? Yet you go on to mention your encounters with "EE's"...

I have edited my post for clarity.

I stand by my encounters with some Eastern Europeans. Some are amazingly pleasant, amazingly so. Others, not so, to the point of racism. And no, its not like anywhere else you go, I've seen racial hatred and there has been a notable increase in generalisations, prejudice, racism I've witnessed and experienced and its mostly from Eastern Europeans (ironically I could be generalising here*). I boil it down to this: many don't live in a place like London, which is culturally rich/diverse.

That said, I welcome them to integrate and learn more about the varying cultures that make up Britain and invite them to add to the wealth of Britain's multicultural society by adding their own cultures to it.

On the subject of jobs I've noticed that in McDonalds, the petrol stations and shops in my area there are newly employed Eastern European staff. Are they taking jobs? People said the same of Caribbean migrants decades ago.... As long as the service is good I really don't care. I did laugh at the woman in the petrol station who asked for my ID and then bumbled through trying to explain what she meant by 'I've heard Black don't crack...'

*Everyone is a little bit racist [Avenue Q it's why Ican laugh at American comedian jokes] IMO and my tolerance for these things is quite high. I like acknowledging, understanding and laughing at the differences between cultures/races, which is why Ms DDD and I work. Interesting side point, right now she's got an afro comb and running it through my sons hair which has her length but my consistency/texture. Beautiful sight.

Probably all bollox that someone will pick apart and I've almost certainly contradicted myself.

Hoh hum.

team47b

DonDaddyD wrote:

Probably all bollox.

Wished you'd put that at the beginning.

cornerblock

team47b wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Probably all bollox.

Wished you'd put that at the beginning.

andrewc3142

Probably all bollox

In your own words.