Campagnolo Zonda v Archetypes

flintlock

Sorry for another wheel thread but I'm just about to order a new set and wondered what will I notice better in a set of handbuilts?

My preferred choice is Archetypes built with miche primato hubs 32h with Sapim race spokes.

My dilemma is for the same cost a pair of campagnolo zondas weigh approx 1550g against 1790 for the archetypes. Surely the lighter wheels will simply roll a lot better or am I missing something?

Thanks

mfin

I don't think you're comparing anywhere near like for like. 32 handbuilts vs Zondas do have in common that they are both round though. Wheels all 'roll' well, as they are all round apart from the square ones. Lighter wheels normally accelerate quicker, the lost of weight at the rims being the main thing.

Alternative version: Zondas will accelerate quicker and feel more sporty on that account, the others will be tougher, which might be of interest if you are fat/ride on awful roads/both.

flintlock

Thanks for the reply.

I know I'm not comparing like for like but although I'm 90 kilos I've also never had any problems with factory wheels (currently shamal ultras).

Therefore if the cost is the same (£280) had I may aswell go for the lighter wheels.?

thespanishadam

The same up front cost... The handbuilts will be cheaper to maintain should you need new spokes or rims. The Zondas are disposable once worn out. Depends what kind of mileage you are going to do. The higher spoke spoke count gives a more comfortable ride in my experience. (Open Pro's vs Khamsins).

ugo.santalucia

If you are looking at the Zonda, then you can look at the Archetype built on 20/24 hubs, up to 75 Kg can be a pretty durable set of wheels, for training, racing and sportives. Choosing lighter spokes means you can get them under 1600 grams and in the same ball game with the Zonda.
I think the 23 mm rims are nicer to ride than the Campagnolo rims, which have been pretty much unchanged for a long time... then of course there is the spares argument, which can top the agenda or be somewhere buried, up to you.
If you like the Primato hubs, it is possible to get them as 20/24

flintlock

Thanks Ugo

I weigh around 95 kilos though. This is the part I don't understand, my shamals I don't have problems with a low spoke count but with handbuilts I would typically need 32h.

Thanks

trek_dan

Flintlock wrote:

Thanks Ugo

I weigh around 95 kilos though. This is the part I don't understand, my shamals I don't have problems with a low spoke count but with handbuilts I would typically need 32h.

Thanks

It'll more be through luck/law of averages from lack of use than that the are designed for your weight. They don't spontanteously combust upon impact with a cuddly fella you know

ugo.santalucia

Flintlock wrote:

Thanks Ugo

I weigh around 95 kilos though. This is the part I don't understand, my shamals I don't have problems with a low spoke count but with handbuilts I would typically need 32h.

Thanks

Even at your weight you can ride low spoke count, just you can't expect a long and trouble free life for your wheels. As builders, we would like to see ZERO spoke breakages and no issues other than bearings and rim wear. Factory wheels are designed with a different set of priorities. Plus these days some folks think 3000 miles is plenty...
If you have the Shamal, why do you want the Zonda?

flintlock

I've got the shamals on my best bike. The winter bike is a condor fratello so I feel would look better / ride better on a nice set of handbuilts but I'm just getting my head around the extra 250g.

As you pointed out I also don't want spoke breakages etc as in reality it gets used more than the best bike.

Thanks

pitchshifter

Flintlock wrote:

I'm just getting my head around the extra 250g.

:shock: Its 0.263% of your body weight.

ugo.santalucia

Flintlock wrote:

I've got the shamals on my best bike. The winter bike is a condor fratello so I feel would look better / ride better on a nice set of handbuilts but I'm just getting my head around the extra 250g.

As you pointed out I also don't want spoke breakages etc as in reality it gets used more than the best bike.

Thanks

Maybe you are 95 Kg of lean muscles, in which case you shouldn't worry about 250 grams, or maybe not, in which case you shouldn't really worry about 250 grams extra. If you find something around you that weighs 250 grams like a half full small bottle of water or an empty mug, take it in your hands and you should get the irony of it all...

flintlock

No I get it. I basically won't notice it but will appreciate the advantages of handbuilts.

Thanks for your help Ugo.

flintlock

pitchshifter wrote:

Flintlock wrote:

I'm just getting my head around the extra 250g.

:shock: Its 0.263% of your body weight.

Yes I know that. But as it's rotating mass, to me anyway wheels seem to spin up quicker when lighter. Obviously this is only any good if they're not snapping a spoke every 500 yds.

philbar72

i've got 2 sets of handbuilts from Ugo and one set would seen to be ideal for the needs of a heavier rider. in reality the performance difference is not a great thing for me when getting the miles in ( one set weighs 1800g and is based around a 105 hub, and ambrosio touring rims with 32 spokes per wheel). the other is slightly more performance orientated, with dura ace 9000 hubs, and 28 spokes on H plus son rims (1600 ish Grams). what you'll find with these wheels is they are built for better wear characterisitics yet roll easily as well as zondas. Of course the slight weight issue may be an issue if you are climbing up hills and wanting to set PB's everywhere, but in reality you can run either of these wheels and have a fantastic ride, knowing that if you do have a mechanical with the wheel you'll be reasonably quickly able to rebuild it using common off the shelf parts. with campag/ fulcrum and some other wheels (Mavic) there can be lead times.

i've tried zondas against my 1600g dura ace hub based wheels. whilst mine are very slightly heavier, they roll much much better and have better overall handling characteristics.

700c

If you're able to get hand builts for the same price (or a bit more than) the Zondas, without giving away much weight, then go for handbuilts

When I looked into it a few years ago, it appeared way more expensive to build by hand than to buy zondas so I eventually took the factory option.

However I now have a set of wheels whose rim has worn and cannot be replaced! Prob about 5000 miles max

They're a great wheel in other respects -really stiff too - but they could be considered a false economy over a customised set..

thespanishadam

You mention it's a winter bike. In my eyes it has to be the handbuilt route.

flintlock

Thanks for the advice. I'm going for a set of handbuilt Archetypes.

Camcycle1974

Flintlock wrote:

Thanks for the advice. I'm going for a set of handbuilt Archetypes.

Good man, you won't regret it. Makes you stand out from the Shimano/Mavic/Campag crowd. People often ask me what mine are and where I got them from.

on-yer-bike

Ugo doesn't recommend Achetypes for winter use because of the vulnerability of the rim. Perhaps they are OK with wider tires. I have one nick on one of my Archetype rims used with 23mm tires.

flintlock

Thanks for that advice. I was planning on using a pair of Conti GP4000's on them

cycleclinic

I agrre with ugo I normamly recomend 20F/24R for folk up to 75kg ad 24/28 upto 90kg (there are exceptions) and 28/32 for those above. Most builder will buy there hubs in matching pairs from Chickens Cycles. Miche do supply 28F/32R pairs and that I how I buy mine but I am waitig on a delivery from Italy again (I am always waiting for something).

The built you after after I think if more suited for you and will be a fine set of wheels more thousands of miles. These are some I have built for those who can't picture what you are buying. A good choice.

FransJacques

mfin wrote:

I don't think you're comparing anywhere near like for like..

I'm glad someone said that as I suspected they would. Someone always does.

What people don't realize is you can compare anything if you hvae the mental dexterity to do so, e.g.

- orgasms vs solar panels? why not?

- the colour yellow vs a zone 1 tube ticket? plenty to discuss between them

(get the Archtypes, get them build as low spoke count as you dare but tight, then order 2 x DS and 2 x NDS spokes and learn to fix them should they break, life's too short to ride Fred Flintstone wheels)

cycleclinic

The only problem with the above is one day you might end up 50 miles from home with a broken spoke and an unridable wheel. That would be an unhappy day Spoke count should reflect the distance covered on each ride and annual mileage as well as your weight. The last thing I want is to have to call my wife and wait hours for her to find me if I have a wheel failure so for long distance/training bike it is a higher spoke count. For a TT or race bike then low spoke count works.

All wheels should be tight - loose spokes give problems.

flintlock

Thanks for the advice cycle clinic and Fransjacques.

In the end though I have to declare I've gone for the Fransjacques option of lower spoke count. I've gone for 28 spoke Archetypes all round built 2 cross with Sapim laser in the front.

cycleclinic

28 spoke is not that low. Low is 20 or 24. 28 and 32 are medium spoke count (sensible) and 36 is high.

jameswatthey

on-yer-bike wrote:

Ugo doesn't recommend Achetypes for winter use because of the vulnerability of the rim. Perhaps they are OK with wider tires. I have one nick on one of my Archetype rims used with 23mm tires.

Oh no - really? I had almost settled on grey Archetype on silver 105 for my Fratello. I ride 25mm tyres. Is this a bad idea, Ugo?

Velonutter

I built a set of Archetypes are chatting with Ugo, mine are the older light grey colour which is almost khaki as I wanted to build some wheels with a low spoke count 20/24 and I weigh just over 90Kgs.

The rims are very smooth to ride with and very comfortable, I knew the anodizing on the brake surfaces wears off very quickly, that is the reason why I didn't go for black. Sure enough after only 50 miles they are wearing off. A little disappointed that it has happened so quickly, but as long as it wears off evenly then it will just look like it has been milled.

If they start to look scruffy then I will demote them to my bad weather winter bike.

As a rim they ride good but only time will test them fully.

jameswatthey

Also what tyres do people use on 23mm rims? For the winter, I was thinking of switching to Gator Hardshells. In theory, their harshness should be reduced by the 23mm effect.. Right? At 90kgs (for now....) the flints are always going to get through lighter tyres like my current GP4Ss.

Velonutter

jameswatthey wrote:

Also what tyres do people use on 23mm rims? For the winter, I was thinking of switching to Gator Hardshells. In theory, their harshness should be reduced by the 23mm effect.. Right? At 90kgs (for now....) the flints are always going to get through lighter tyres like my current GP4Ss.

Michelin Lithion 2's

ugo.santalucia

jameswatthey wrote:

on-yer-bike wrote:

Ugo doesn't recommend Achetypes for winter use because of the vulnerability of the rim. Perhaps they are OK with wider tires. I have one nick on one of my Archetype rims used with 23mm tires.

Oh no - really? I had almost settled on grey Archetype on silver 105 for my Fratello. I ride 25mm tyres. Is this a bad idea, Ugo?

The Fratello has a lot of clearance. If you don't use mudguards, you can probably fit some nice touring tyres for winter. Don't be afraid of going big... I use big tyres all year round and they are fast, as well as virtually puncture proof.
Vittoria Randonneur PRO 32 mm are my favourite... they are cheap on Planet X at the moment. They go very well on 23 mm tyres

jameswatthey

ugo.santalucia wrote:

jameswatthey wrote:

on-yer-bike wrote:

Ugo doesn't recommend Achetypes for winter use because of the vulnerability of the rim. Perhaps they are OK with wider tires. I have one nick on one of my Archetype rims used with 23mm tires.

Oh no - really? I had almost settled on grey Archetype on silver 105 for my Fratello. I ride 25mm tyres. Is this a bad idea, Ugo?

The Fratello has a lot of clearance. If you don't use mudguards, you can probably fit some nice touring tyres for winter. Don't be afraid of going big... I use big tyres all year round and they are fast, as well as virtually puncture proof.
Vittoria Randonneur PRO 32 mm are my favourite... they are cheap on Planet X at the moment. They go very well on 23 mm tyres

Thanks Ugo. I do use guards though so it's 28mm max (which I guess means 25mm tyres if using 23mm rims). Is there anything about the Archetype / TB14 that makes is unsuitable for winter?