Forest trails closed due to event

thelonegroover

Went to Gisburn Forest yesterday, we got there at about 9 am and set off on the red route. Before long it was apparent there was an endure event on and riders were riding round practicing.
Some sections were taped off for the race start at 12 noon. All bar one lady marshal said it would be OK to ride as normal until 12. However this one marshal would not allow us to ride her section at 10 am!
Is it actually legal to close a sections of forestry land to none racers.

cooldad

Yes.

thelonegroover

Well we were lucky got there early and managed to complete 90% of our ride but a bit unfortunate for all the none racers, who were just setting off when we finished.

rockmonkeysc

Yes.
It would be hopeless trying to practice with people out for a steady plod on the track. Race practice needs to be at race speed. Also marshals and organisers are prepared for a certain number of riders.

nicklouse

as mentioned yes they can and often do.

BUT why was there no info on their web site news section?

that is a poor do.

thelonegroover

cooldad wrote:

Yes.

I think you could be partly correct, in that the Forestry commision could close sections, but not a private company organising an event.

nicklouse

Thelonegroover wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Yes.

I think you could be partly correct, in that the Forestry commision could close sections, but not a private company organising an event.

yes they can as they will have permission from the FC.

.blitz

Thelonegroover wrote:

Is it actually legal to close a sections of forestry land to none racers.

Yup happens all the time at Cannock. The trails are a privilege and can be closed/marshalled at any time for an FC-sanctioned event.

Can be quite a surprise to find a couple of blokes holding some red/white striped tape across the trail when there's an evening race on

ilovedirt

nicklouse wrote:

as mentioned yes they can and often do.

BUT why was there no info on their web site news section?

that is a poor do.

I'll be willing to bet the OP didn't bother to check... I rarely do.

thelonegroover

nicklouse wrote:

Thelonegroover wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Yes.

I think you could be partly correct, in that the Forestry commision could close sections, but not a private company organising an event.

yes they can as they will have permission from the FC.

Sounds as though it's dependent on the local FC office then. At Gisburn, the oganisers of this event were not allowed to use the Hope line or Hully Gully. Having spoken to the responsible FC person, they said the organisers had no legal right to stop other riders. So, it's a grey area.

nicklouse

Thelonegroover wrote:

nicklouse wrote:

Thelonegroover wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Yes.

I think you could be partly correct, in that the Forestry commision could close sections, but not a private company organising an event.

yes they can as they will have permission from the FC.

Sounds as though it's dependent on the local FC office then. At Gisburn, the oganisers of this event were not allowed to use the Hope line or Hully Gully. Having spoken to the responsible FC person, they said the organisers had no legal right to stop other riders. So, it's a grey area.

if that is so then they can not. but that is not what you said at the start.

cooldad

Should have taken your lawyer along then.

rockmonkeysc

You can't have an event with random riders on the course for safety and insurance reasons.
Also you can't have sensible practice with people plodding around holding up riders trying to learn the track at high speed.
Every race I have done the track has been closed to anyone not entered in the race and registered and signed on.

thelonegroover

cooldad wrote:

Should have taken your lawyer along then.

As I said, it didn't impact us. I'm simply making the point it's a grey area and depending who you ask you get a different answer. However the Forestry Commision seem to think they can't actually force you.

ilovedirt

Races happen, get over it.

cooldad

Thelonegroover wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Should have taken your lawyer along then.

As I said, it didn't impact us. I'm simply making the point it's a grey area and depending who you ask you get a different answer. However the Forestry Commision seem to think they can't actually force you.

Probably can't force you not to have a picnic in the middle of the trail, but...

.blitz

Thelonegroover wrote:

However the Forestry Commision seem to think they can't actually force you.

One would hope that the abundance of track tape, marshalls, spectators, vehicles and race numbers would be enough for most people to realise that something was going on and respond appropriately without the FC having to resort to force

rockmonkeysc

You would have to be a bit of a tool to crash a race and get in the way of riders practising for a race.

Re-Cycle

ilovedirt wrote:

Races happen, get over it.

RockmonkeySC wrote:

You can't have an event with random riders on the course for safety and insurance reasons.
Also you can't have sensible practice with people plodding around holding up riders trying to learn the track at high speed.
Every race I have done the track has been closed to anyone not entered in the race and registered and signed on.

RockmonkeySC wrote:

You can't have an event with random riders on the course for safety and insurance reasons.

The guy wasn't saying he had anything against racing or even suggested he was about to crash an event. I think after turning up (possibly without checking the schedule) he was just miffed that an event was on or he may have checked and if the event wasn't advertised he was rightly peeved. To tell someone races happen and to get over is quite a pathetic response as we are all human and I'm sure we all get frustrated with issues that to others seem trivial.

rockmonkeysc

Races are usually well advertised and they usually put up notices at the trail weeks in advance to warn of closures. Of course the other option, rather than go home is try to get an on the day entry and see if you're as fast as you think you are 8)

thelonegroover

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Races are usually well advertised and they usually put up notices at the trail weeks in advance to warn of closures. Of course the other option, rather than go home is try to get an on the day entry and see if you're as fast as you think you are 8)

I think the particular event at Gisburn Forest was £37 to enter. I won't be doing one of those never mind riding for 9 hours!
Nothing against races or racers, just saying it's not very clear about rights of ways. Personally we avoided the sections when it was obvious people were practicing. Most of the marshals were quite good and let normal riders through when the trail was clear, only one lady marshal was particularly obnoxious though. You do as you're asked if it's in a polite manner, if you're ordered by some pompous windbag you tend to ignore them.

mcnultycop

I was going to go to Gisburn in Sunday, discovered via Facebook the Enduro was on, asked them if it was worth me going to ride and they suggested not.

I went up to Lee a few months back and missed the fact a Brownbacks race was on and only realised when there was a car park full of XC whippets. I checked the route, discovered what was closed and bypassed it all and rode up at Cragg and the few bits of Lee that the racers weren't using.

ilovedirt

Re-Cycle wrote:

ilovedirt wrote:

Races happen, get over it.

RockmonkeySC wrote:

You can't have an event with random riders on the course for safety and insurance reasons.
Also you can't have sensible practice with people plodding around holding up riders trying to learn the track at high speed.
Every race I have done the track has been closed to anyone not entered in the race and registered and signed on.

RockmonkeySC wrote:

You can't have an event with random riders on the course for safety and insurance reasons.

The guy wasn't saying he had anything against racing or even suggested he was about to crash an event. I think after turning up (possibly without checking the schedule) he was just miffed that an event was on or he may have checked and if the event wasn't advertised he was rightly peeved. To tell someone races happen and to get over is quite a pathetic response as we are all human and I'm sure we all get frustrated with issues that to others seem trivial.

I just don't understand the point of the thread...

Kowalski675

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Races are usually well advertised and they usually put up notices at the trail weeks in advance to warn of closures. Of course the other option, rather than go home is try to get an on the day entry and see if you're as fast as you think you are 8)

Dunno about on the internet, but there were no physical notices warning of any forthcoming event, restrictions or closures when i was there on the Sunday previously.

HebdenBiker

OP, the marshals would have been unpaid volunteers. The woman you criticised would have been told to try to keep non-racers off her section of the course. It sounds like you were miffed at being prevented from riding where you wanted, so the marshal had to be more directive with you. So what starts out as "Sorry mate, there's an event on today, you can't go down there" ends up as "Look, you're not riding down there. Go away."

You should try marshalling the transition area of a triathlon:

"Sorry, you can't enter transition without your race number. It's to stop people wandering in and nicking your bike."
"But I only want to get my towel/gloves/water bottle."
"I understand. So come back with your race number and you can go in."
"Why are you being a jobsworth?"
"Transition rules are common to all multisport events. You signed up to them on your entry form".
"But I just want my towel/gloves/water bottle".
<Repeat ad nauseum>

You're right about signage - there were no notices up at Gisburn last Saturday warning of the Sunday closures. But I'd read about the event online so stayed clear on Sunday. Yes, the organisers could possibly have had better signage, but more signage means more money and more volunteer time.

Personally, I'm glad that there are more events like this popping up. Yes it will mean trail closures. It's a bit like the residents of Surrey getting fed up with road closures for roadie events around Box Hill. I can appreciate the frustration but ultimately, more people racing bikes (of whatever type) = A Good Thing in my opinion.

thelonegroover

HebdenBiker wrote:

OP, the marshals would have been unpaid volunteers. The woman you criticised would have been told to try to keep non-racers off her section of the course. It sounds like you were miffed at being prevented from riding where you wanted, so the marshal had to be more directive with you. So what starts out as "Sorry mate, there's an event on today, you can't go down there" ends up as "Look, you're not riding down there. Go away."

You should try marshalling the transition area of a triathlon:

"Sorry, you can't enter transition without your race number. It's to stop people wandering in and nicking your bike."
"But I only want to get my towel/gloves/water bottle."
"I understand. So come back with your race number and you can go in."
"Why are you being a jobsworth?"
"Transition rules are common to all multisport events. You signed up to them on your entry form".
"But I just want my towel/gloves/water bottle".
<Repeat ad nauseum>

No problem at all in following the rules of an event (endure, triathlon or whatever) but those are for the signed up entrants.

You're right about signage - there were no notices up at Gisburn last Saturday warning of the Sunday closures. But I'd read about the event online so stayed clear on Sunday. Yes, the organisers could possibly have had better signage, but more signage means more money and more volunteer time.

Personally, I'm glad that there are more events like this popping up. Yes it will mean trail closures. It's a bit like the residents of Surrey getting fed up with road closures for roadie events around Box Hill. I can appreciate the frustration but ultimately, more people racing bikes (of whatever type) = A Good Thing in my opinion.

It could have been like that but it wasn’t. We avoided the particular stage this marshal was on and took another route.
The point is, she thought she could order others about, when she had no right to.

Also, as Kowalski675 said, there was no indication of an event at all, not even in the Cocklet Hill car park.

I have done a couple of the Hope series at Lee Quarry and there were none racers also using the facility, there was no problem at all.

TheNorthernTrain

Thelonegroover wrote:

HebdenBiker wrote:

OP, the marshals would have been unpaid volunteers. The woman you criticised would have been told to try to keep non-racers off her section of the course. It sounds like you were miffed at being prevented from riding where you wanted, so the marshal had to be more directive with you. So what starts out as "Sorry mate, there's an event on today, you can't go down there" ends up as "Look, you're not riding down there. Go away."

You should try marshalling the transition area of a triathlon:

"Sorry, you can't enter transition without your race number. It's to stop people wandering in and nicking your bike."
"But I only want to get my towel/gloves/water bottle."
"I understand. So come back with your race number and you can go in."
"Why are you being a jobsworth?"
"Transition rules are common to all multisport events. You signed up to them on your entry form".
"But I just want my towel/gloves/water bottle".
<Repeat ad nauseum>

No problem at all in following the rules of an event (endure, triathlon or whatever) but those are for the signed up entrants.

You're right about signage - there were no notices up at Gisburn last Saturday warning of the Sunday closures. But I'd read about the event online so stayed clear on Sunday. Yes, the organisers could possibly have had better signage, but more signage means more money and more volunteer time.

Personally, I'm glad that there are more events like this popping up. Yes it will mean trail closures. It's a bit like the residents of Surrey getting fed up with road closures for roadie events around Box Hill. I can appreciate the frustration but ultimately, more people racing bikes (of whatever type) = A Good Thing in my opinion.

It could have been like that but it wasn’t. We avoided the particular stage this marshal was on and took another route.
The point is, she thought she could order others about, when she had no right to.

She has every right to order you not to go down the trail... That is her job as a marshal.

thelonegroover

Not true, she had every right to ask but not to order. If I'd wanted to I had every right to ignore her though.

rockmonkeysc

Thelonegroover wrote:

Not true, she had every right to ask but not to order. If I'd wanted to I had every right to ignore her though.

That could quite possibly get the course red flagged while they get non racers of the trace and make practice difficult for all competitors. British Cycling rules state that only competitors (with number boards) are allowed on track during practice and race sessions. During track walks and inspections no bikes at all are allowed on the track.

thelonegroover

Right, there could be some misunderstanding then between British cycling, local organisers and the Forestry Commision. Which is why I brought this up.

cooldad

Thelonegroover wrote:

Not true, she had every right to ask but not to order. If I'd wanted to I had every right to ignore her though.

Should have told her you drive an Audi as well. Then she would have curtsied and stopped the race.