Lights, HiViz et al

morstar

Well at least I'm not making it up! Out of 15 or so people replying on the subject, at least 2 of us believe that flashing lights alone can make distance perception more difficult.
Maybe not conclusive but, take from that whatever you like.

monkimark

As I recall from a bit of advanced motorbike training done a couple of years ago, solid lights are not much use for distanmce perception either. It's quite common for drivers to misjudge the speed/distance of a motorbike because of the single light up front.
I guess drivers are used to juding the closing speed of an approaching vehicle by the headlights appearing to get further appart due to perspective. Something that you can't really replicate on a bike

APIII

morstar wrote:

Well at least I'm not making it up! Out of 15 or so people replying on the subject, at least 2 of us believe that flashing lights alone can make distance perception more difficult.
Maybe not conclusive but, take from that whatever you like.

You can make it three then. From a car driver's perspective I think flashing rear lights at night are not as effective as a static one. I can understand their use during the day when natural light may be a bit poor.

cougie

I bung my light on flashing on the back when its a dull day. Then I forget about it.
Most of the time its probably not helping with my visibility as its daylight - but there are always bits I ride that goes through country lanes with overhanging trees and it is dull there.
Its at almost no expense to me-rechargeable batteries so why wouldn't I ?

I'm not keen on all black kit though - fine at night with reflectives etc - but in daytime - its not good. You can see this for yourself - if theres a cyclist up ahead in the lanes you'll spot them furthest away if they've got fluo colours on.
Then red. Then blue. Then black. And I'm always looking out for cyclists to chase.

I have ridden past my cycling pal on a dull winters day. He was riding toward me on a dual carriage way - entirely in black and with a dark background. I was looking out for him and still didn't see him. He got a fluo gilet shortly after that.

hatch87

adr82 wrote:

hatch87 wrote:

What I don't understand is why people wear all black, even in daylight, they're the ones that need talking to.

Why? I cycle a lot at night, particularly in autumn and winter, and take it from me you are far more visible with a decent set of lights (preferably flashing) than with any combination of high vis or brightly coloured clothing without lights (a surprisingly common sight). As for riding in daylight, why would it matter if you wear black? Might be less eyecatching than something fluorescent but you're hardly invisible either! Motorcyclists tend to wear a lot of black too.

But thats if they have decent lights. Some people ride around with Halfords budget range lights which you can barely see even if you have it held up to your face.

Daylight can still be dull and dingy though, especially at commuting times atm. People are driving around half asleep and wearing black isn't going to catch their attention when you blend in with the road. Yes it will still be the drivers fault if they hit you, but I'd rather just not be hit.

At night, I don't think clothing matters as much, my main concern is someone pulling out in front of me, at which point their headlights aren't pointing at you so not lighting anything up. I have an exposure front light which makes me look like a motorcycle its so bright, really gets you some respect on the road.

slowbike

All the more reason to have a good quality FLASHING back light for use in the daytime.

Problem with "HiViz" for me is that everyone and his dog seem to wear it - so it ceases to be something that makes you standout because we're so used to seeing it.

Mike67

Surely Hi-Viz and a flashing light serve the same purpose...to get noticed.
I know which I'd rather use. Yellow just doesn't suit me

Neither will work of course if the driver just isn't looking.

As for not seeing people in black/dark clothing...I don't agree. I was out driving today...a truly grotty, dull one, and could quite easily spot all the pedestrians/cyclists along the way, whatever they were wearing and even if they weren't flashing

Drivers just need to be looking for them properly...expect them to be there, anticipate they'll be something just beyond their scope of vision, not just react to their presence when detected,
Which leads me back to: if a driver's not looking...no amount of hi-viz/lights will save you.

Yes, that is an idealist view, so I do run a flashing light in daylight, but you have to question that if it requires a flashing light to attract the attention of someone who is behind you, and therefore should be looking straight at you...where was their attention beforehand???

Not looking at your hi-viz..that's for sure

aberdeen_lune

I had my brightest hi vis screaming yellow jacket on this morning and flashing lights. A driver still pulled out on me totally unaware I was there. I ended up hammering on the anchors at 25mph and I must confess I did a bit of shouting at the driver. needless to say I didnt pay her any compliments.

I still think hi vis does give you the best chance of being seen along with flashing lights. I do agree though if the driver isnt looking properly they wont see you no matter what your wearing.

Has anyone invented a siren to use while cycling?

goonz

mpatts wrote:

In situations like this, I find that pointing out that he REALLY should be running Campag rather than Shimano (or whatever).

Was he wearing Wapha?

slowbike

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

I had my brightest hi vis screaming yellow jacket on this morning and flashing lights. A driver still pulled out on me totally unaware I was there. I ended up hammering on the anchors at 25mph and I must confess I did a bit of shouting at the driver. needless to say I didnt pay her any compliments.

I still think hi vis does give you the best chance of being seen along with flashing lights. I do agree though if the driver isnt looking properly they wont see you no matter what your wearing.

They can still act like tits even after they've seen you ... had a car try to overtake me on the approach to a traffic island - he moved out giving me loads of room, then realised that the traffic island wasn't going to move out of his way so had to brake heavily then overtake when there was room to do so....
Such contrast between that tit and the lorry driver who just minutes earlier had NOT overtaken me on a brow of a rise where it drops down into a village and 30mph limit leaving me to ride through the village faster than he could drive (tight corners and narrow roads) then overtake me sensibly once we were on the open road again. Naturally I waved a thankyou and got the flashing indicators in return.

adr82

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

Has anyone invented a siren to use while cycling?

Yes, sort of... HornIt or AirZound for example. Should be videos of both on YouTube if you want to hear them in action.

adr82

hatch87 wrote:

But thats if they have decent lights. Some people ride around with Halfords budget range lights which you can barely see even if you have it held up to your face.

Well sure, that's why I said "decent" in the first place. I know the type of lights you mean and I totally agree, they're useless.

hatch87 wrote:

Daylight can still be dull and dingy though, especially at commuting times atm. People are driving around half asleep and wearing black isn't going to catch their attention when you blend in with the road. Yes it will still be the drivers fault if they hit you, but I'd rather just not be hit.

I'm not saying I'd never wear hi-viz stuff during the day, but I definitely don't think you want to encourage the same sort of attitude as we are currently seeing in relation to helmets - instead of "Yes the motorist was at fault but you should have been wearing a helmet" we'll get "Yes the motorist should have seen you, but you really should have been wearing bright clothing". I actually have plenty of hi-viz kit, but I shouldn't need to feel obliged to wear it because drivers aren't paying attention, and as Aberdeen_lune pointed out the effect is debatable anyway.

Anyone aware of any studies that tried to measure the difference between dark/bright clothing in this context? Common sense would say there should be a significant difference, but common sense is often wrong...

thegreatdivide

Has this been posted yet? (Can't be ar$ed scrolling back ;-))

http://road.cc/content/news/95353-study ... not-hi-vis

adr82

thegreatdivide wrote:

Has this been posted yet? (Can't be ar$ed scrolling back ;-))

http://road.cc/content/news/95353-study ... not-hi-vis

Don't think so, some interesting points in there, thanks.

Neil_aky

monkimark wrote:

As I recall from a bit of advanced motorbike training done a couple of years ago, solid lights are not much use for distanmce perception either. It's quite common for drivers to misjudge the speed/distance of a motorbike because of the single light up front.
I guess drivers are used to juding the closing speed of an approaching vehicle by the headlights appearing to get further appart due to perspective. Something that you can't really replicate on a bike

This is a really good point - I never thought of the problem being a single light and the brain using the perceived distance between left and right light on a car to judge distance, but it makes sense once pointed out.

Neil_aky

thegreatdivide wrote:

Has this been posted yet? (Can't be ar$ed scrolling back ;-))

http://road.cc/content/news/95353-study ... not-hi-vis

An interesting report, I have a Polaris jacket I wear in the winter which is hi viz yellow and orange with reflective strips http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/polaris-rbs-jacket/rp-prod25105?_$ja=tsid:46412|cgn:Polaris+-+High+Viz|cn:Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE|kw:78345UK_Polaris+RBS+Jacket&gclid=CK-ohfj8-LkCFYyWtAod1T8AFA

This seems to work because they have used two different colours to add 'shape' to the outline and very good reflective strips - maybe the designer had read this report...

pinkteapot

Going back to OP's story, I wear a RoadID bracelet while riding (affectionately known as my 'death bracelet'). Would have loved to see what this oddball made of that.

awavey

monkimark wrote:

As I recall from a bit of advanced motorbike training done a couple of years ago, solid lights are not much use for distanmce perception either. It's quite common for drivers to misjudge the speed/distance of a motorbike because of the single light up front.
I guess drivers are used to juding the closing speed of an approaching vehicle by the headlights appearing to get further appart due to perspective. Something that you can't really replicate on a bike

no I thought that was from then they used to have dual headlights, but obviously close together so it appeared to be a far away car, not a motorbike about to overtake you,and thats why the law changed to only illuminate one at a time except on high beam. which is some motorcyclists favoured approach in the Ill dazzle you so you can see me which even some cyclists do now.

there is a point about getting seen, and not just blending into the background, the problem with hiviz its reached the point where so many people wear it, not just cyclists I mean Ive even seen school kids being escorted on pavements having to wear the stuff, at least I think its subconciously being ignored anyway, its the classic wear a hard hat, hiviz and carry a clipboard, and nobody will see you.

I wont be using the ninja school of cycling outfits now its dark,but I wont be wearing hiviz either.

whitestar1

Neil_aky wrote:

I was out cycling this morning when a fellow cyclist came alongside and wished me a hearty good morning, first time this has happened to me so I thought that was nice; he then asked me why I had lights flashing in daylight - I said 'anything to get me seen a bit easier' at which point he proceeded to berate me for 'not enjoying my cycling as I must be constantly worrying about cars'! He then said that you should not have to use lights and use HiViz because we should be able to behave the same as cars as we have as much right to use the road...

I explained that I loved my cycling but just wanted to do anything which made it easier for drivers to see me - he seemed to think I was letting the side down by using lights and seemed to be unimpressed with wearing HiViz.

He wished me a good ride but I felt despair at this attitude which exists with some cyclists.

When will these people realise that it easy when driving to not see a bike and both sides need to help each other - even new cars now have to have driving lights...

By the way he was on a black bike, wearing a black top and no helmet.

Well what would you expect from him if he is kitted out that way! Heck I was in a crash three weeks ago and my helmet saved me! Never will I ever ride without a helmet. You just ignore him.

dsoutar

To be honest, now it's got dark I never cease to be amazed at the numbers of people I see each and every day, especially in the morning (I leave the house at 5:30), that have no lights and are wearing dark clothing cycling along unlit roads.

I've now given up mentioning to them that they are almost invisible and have decided to just let Darwin's theory of Natural Selection take it's course

Bozman

I thought that I'd slipped in to the commuting forum for a minute. If you are unlucky enough to live in a big city then I'd guess that you can never have enough HiViz and lighting, poor light, busy traffic, add some rain and you're living on a prayer, it's going to be a nightmare and you will probably get collared at sometime.

Out on the bike and I'd wear black but when it starts to get dull at this time of year I'll put a small flashing light on the rear, if it's raining too I'll add a small knog light for the front. Having been knocked off a few times I've got to say that they can give you a false sense of security and invincibility. It will happen.

slowbike

Bozman wrote:

Out on the bike and I'd wear black but when it starts to get dull at this time of year I'll put a small flashing light on the rear, if it's raining too I'll add a small knog light for the front. Having been knocked off a few times I've got to say that they can give you a false sense of security and invincibility. It will happen.

If you've been knocked off a few times already don't you think it's worth revising your set up? A small flashing light on the rear - depends which one - but in anycase, if it's going to be a DARK ride I use two lights on the back. I'm not so worried about a small flasher on the front because most of my ride is along country roads with little or no joining traffic.
Dark tends to be colder and my (yellow) wind/waterproof jacket has reflective strips on - as do my longs, 3qtrs and overshoes. The rear mudguard will go on shortly - that has a reflective strip down the back.

Bozman

Slowbike wrote:

Bozman wrote:

Out on the bike and I'd wear black but when it starts to get dull at this time of year I'll put a small flashing light on the rear, if it's raining too I'll add a small knog light for the front. Having been knocked off a few times I've got to say that they can give you a false sense of security and invincibility. It will happen.

If you've been knocked off a few times already don't you think it's worth revising your set up? A small flashing light on the rear - depends which one - but in anycase, if it's going to be a DARK ride I use two lights on the back. I'm not so worried about a small flasher on the front because most of my ride is along country roads with little or no joining traffic.
Dark tends to be colder and my (yellow) wind/waterproof jacket has reflective strips on - as do my longs, 3qtrs and overshoes. The rear mudguard will go on shortly - that has a reflective strip down the back.

All in the daylight, one was in the rain but I was wearing a red jacket, she just failed to stop on a roundabout.
I don't commute now and I'm lucky enough to not have to go near a city/built up area, but I did commute up until about five years ago and I found the whole ride a bit of a lottery, I doubt that one week went by without a near miss.

adr82

dsoutar wrote:

To be honest, now it's got dark I never cease to be amazed at the numbers of people I see each and every day, especially in the morning (I leave the house at 5:30), that have no lights and are wearing dark clothing cycling along unlit roads.

I've now given up mentioning to them that they are almost invisible and have decided to just let Darwin's theory of Natural Selection take it's course

I like to pass the time by scoring other cyclists from 0-10 based on the lights they're using (if any), use of ear/headphones, RLJ'ing and general lack of common sense (stupid filtering, jumping on/off pavements etc). Like you I find it incredible how many people just don't bother with lights at all. Actually makes me feel some sympathy for drivers because I know I'd be nervous if I had to try and spot these idiots at night.

Neil_aky

pinkteapot wrote:

Going back to OP's story, I wear a RoadID bracelet while riding (affectionately known as my 'death bracelet'). Would have loved to see what this oddball made of that.

I am the OP and yes, I wear ID Tags as well as 'dog tags' on a lanyard under my top.

I think he just thought that because of lights etc. I was a nervous wreck - I am far from it, I am a confident rider but just like to do anything I can to be seen.