Di2 vs 50mm wheels

TheCameraMan

Hi guys,

So its time to buy a new bike, and I'm beginning to spec it. Everything was mostly going well UNTIL:

one guy at the club has got some Ultegra di2s, and he let me ride his bike for a minute. I was amazed by the shifting performance.

But i've heard from many people to buy some aero wheels e.g. Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL.

My budget means I will not be able to get both. Has anyone got some advice?, preferably people who have or have had both. (I'll still listen to everyone though!)

Thanks.

Monty Dog

What are you going to do with the bike?

Do you want the wheels for their looks or can you ride fast enough for them to be of any benefit?

turnerjohn

never said what your rolling on ATM ?!

in theory wheels will make a bigger difference then electric shifting

TheCameraMan

Wow, that was a fast reply, Thanks.

To be honest, I live in a hilly area, so there is some climbing. I don't know loads about 50mm wheels, do they make I difference. I am not by any means a super fast rider. How fast is "fast enough" just out of interest. (20+ mph?). I am not really concerned by the looks (as long as the finished bike doesnt look too bad). I would rather get the most out of my bike for the money. Thanks again

TheCameraMan

@ turnerjohn,
at the moment I have some rs30s, but I was looking to upgrade (something I should have done a while back)
most of the few people I have asked in real life have said the same as you about wheels vs groupset, but none of them have used both.

ugo.santalucia

TheCameraMan wrote:

@ turnerjohn,
at the moment I have some rs30s, but I was looking to upgrade (something I should have done a while back)
most of the few people I have asked in real life have said the same as you about wheels vs groupset, but none of them have used both.

I think your question doesn't make much sense... would you buy a HD screen TV or the latest Tablet? Could it be an individual choice? If you like pressing buttons buy the Di2, if you like going 0.2 mph faster, get the deep wheels

Percy Vera

I've got some money to blow and don't know if I should buy chalk or cheese - what do you think?

cycleclinic

Do 50mm wheels make a difference well the answer is some in a race or TT or Tri event. On a club ride no they make no difference as a club ride will stick together. Also do my shallow rims stop me hitting very high speeds - of course they don't I just have to try a bit harder. If you are racing then aero wheels help if you are not then then they "help" in the same way but is that help really needed.

Di2 is fine until something goes wrong have you seen the price of replacement part? Also 50mm rims will catch the wind a bit and some do not mind that some do. In short you will find alot of opinions about what makes a difference, you will only have your opinion once you try. Depending how how fast you ride will determine how much you notice any difference.

Buy cheese at least you can eat that perhaps a nice piece of Stilton.

charlie_potatoes

thecycleclinic wrote:

Buy cheese at least you can eat that perhaps a nice piece of Stilton.

Or if you're not keen on blue cheese maybe go for a Lincolnshire poacher or Old Montgomery's Cheddar.
Plenty of decent British cheeses so no need to look elsewhere.

cycleclinic

No there is not. While I love Italian food I prefer English cheeses and beer. We digress.

sloppyschleckonds

More cheese Gromit

chadders81

If you think about this logically, there's only one conclusion to come to really.

You can add 50mm wheels to any bike when you feel like it/can afford it down the line. The same is not true of Di2.

FYI - I like my Di2- the front shifts are amazing, but I also run mechanical Ultegra 6600 on another bike and it really is flawless still after about 8,000 miles.

TheCameraMan

Thanks chadders for a helpful post (although I have learned about many new types of cheeses!)

I think your right, i'll go for di2 and hopefully buy some deep rims later. I live in a windy place in a hilly area too.

Thanks for your and everyones help.

=D

northpole

If you live in a hilly and windy area; and if you aren't participating in events more than sportives, I would suggest you have no need for deep section wheels - they will not help you climbing up steep hills. You'd be much better off with something like dura ace C24s (or c35s if you want the semi deep section look!).

The present time is one of transition for Shimano groupsets and wheels as they move from 10 to 11 speed. You can pick up good deals at the moment on the 10 speed ultegra di2 however, you should ask yourself if you will want to have 11 speed - if you are buying new Shimano wheels, the pre-9000 model range will not take 11 speed cassettes.

Were I in your position, (which I'm not !), I'd probably get another winter out of the existing wheels if the rims are up to it and upgrade them late spring 2014 with 11 speed compatible wheels (only affects the rear wheel and you can run them with a 10 speed cassette). The groupset upgrade could then follow when ultegra 6870 becomes available at reasonable prices. Having the extra cog is great for hilly areas (that's what I found with Campag!).

Peter

dinkdankdo10

Hi. I have di2. In short it's a brilliant piece of kit. The smoothness on hills for me makes it a huge benefit and something I have really felt benefit my riding by smoother changes etc in short no way would I go back.

I would suggest save and keep a look out for deals. What are you on at the moment ? Check ribble out. They had an upgrade kit (full groupset but no brakes) for £800. Also lots of deals on wheels out there.

bernithebiker

Not sure about prices, but I would imagine there can't be much in it;

Consider DA 9000 over Ultegra Di2.

greasedscotsman

thecycleclinic wrote:

On a club ride no they make no difference as a club ride will stick together.

They will if your riding on the front.

spasypaddy

ugo, what annoys you more nice carbon wheels or di2?

ugo.santalucia

spasypaddy wrote:

ugo, what annoys you more nice carbon wheels or di2?

Good question...
They are both pretty pointless. Di2 serves a purpose for those who can't use a cable shifter (which judging by the noise you hear in sportives, is the majority), while deep carbon wheels serve a purpose for those who are obsessed about the look and the last say in seconds saving. I guess if both categories were blessed with better roads and better surroundings than saying the greenbelt around Basingstoke, they would probably spend less time drooling after pointless upgrades... you will see the worst bikes dotted in the best cycling areas around the world and all the 10 K carbon wonders within Zone 4 in London and that's pretty much a given

SO to answer your question... I guess Di2 will give the OP less grief and more to talk about and that's probably the way to go... at least it won't kill him down a wet descent...

greasedscotsman

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Di2 serves a purpose for those who can't use a cable shifter

Aren't gears just for cyclists who are too soft to ride fixed?

ugo.santalucia

greasedscotsman wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Di2 serves a purpose for those who can't use a cable shifter

Aren't gears just for cyclists who are too soft to ride fixed?

You can say so... although they have invented them, we can even make use of them and avoid damaging our knees. Electric gears at the moment are nothing more than a pretty toy, that has no practical use other than providing slightly more accurate derailleur movement... up to 11 speed you can shift mechanically, if in the future drivetrains will go to 12-13 or even 14 sprockets, maybe electric will become a requirement, at the moment is just a toy.
As a matter of fact, you can shift an 11 speed cassette without indexing, but you need to be pretty accurate, which is not always easy. What am I trying to say? That technology serves a purpose, but often comes up 10 years before it is actually necessary... so I wouldn't be in any rush to throw away money into something which nobody is quite sure how long is meant to last... that is based on my case... I don't have much money to throw into equipment and have to make choices... I'd rather get some decent winter clothing or a nice cycling trip... but hey ho, horses for courses...

greasedscotsman

So what your saying is, if you had the money, you would give it a try!

ugo.santalucia

greasedscotsman wrote:

So what your saying is, if you had the money, you would give it a try!

probably not... I think it's at the very bottom of my wish list... I am a fettler, what am I going to do with a box that says "do not open or it will invalidate the warranty"?
Tiagra and Veloce are smoother than I will ever need and I normally get my fix by a great piece of road engineering rather than by a majestic piece of gear shifting... don't know... do you congratulate yourself for a flawless shift? Do you often think "what a great piece of shifting I did this morning going from the big to the small ring flawlessly"? These things don't leave a dent in my life in the same way taking corners down a big mountain does.

I'd pay for great brakes, I'd probably spend a fortune in hydraulic disc brakes with carbon discs if they were any better than steel ones... great brakes give me great fun...

greasedscotsman

Your not even prepared to try it? Really? :shock:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any great rush to go electric, but I'd certainly like to try it. Everyone I know who's got it says it's great. I'd like to see what the fuss is about. For myself. And I'm not one of these people that goes on about how great the shifting action is with a particular setup. I don't see that's where the benefit is. I like the idea of multiple shifting points (for a TT bike that would be great). Sure, you can use a regular STI/Ergopower/DoubleTap shifters or even down tube levers to change gear, but it's there, it's avaliable. Why not use it? Also the latest Shimano Dura Ace groupset is lighter than the mechanical version.

I really can't see a reason not to try it, unless I have to pay for it.

Oh and for what it's worth, to answer the OP, I think I would go for 30mm deep wheels rather than than 50s.

spasypaddy

as someone that has multiple bikes with di2 and a lovely set of 60mm front and 70mm back carbon clinchers i completely disagree with everything ugo says. however i have alu clinchers on my road bike for proper riding. its just the tt bike that has deep sections

ugo.santalucia

greasedscotsman wrote:

Your not even prepared to try it? Really? :shock:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any great rush to go electric, but I'd certainly like to try it. Everyone I know who's got it says it's great. I'd like to see what the fuss is about. For myself. And I'm not one of these people that goes on about how great the shifting action is with a particular setup. I don't see that's where the benefit is. I like the idea of multiple shifting points (for a TT bike that would be great). Sure, you can use a regular STI/Ergopower/DoubleTap shifters or even down tube levers to change gear, but it's there, it's avaliable. Why not use it? Also the latest Shimano Dura Ace groupset is lighter than the mechanical version.

I really can't see a reason not to try it, unless I have to pay for it.

Oh and for what it's worth, to answer the OP, I think I would go for 30mm deep wheels rather than than 50s.

Well, I can try it on someone else's bike, but no, I won't fit something I cannot fettle with on my bike... then when something goes wrong what do I do? I drive down to Sigma sport or walk the bike to Bike Lab and get charged 100 pounds to plug the bike into a laptop? C'mon I want a bicycle not a car.
As for the "feel great"... as I said, I take no particular joy in shifting... if it's clunky or super buttery, as long as it works it's no big joy or concern to me. I confess you I have a Shimergo setup, which does work OK, some might say it's not buttery smooth as Di2 or EPS, but I care fuxkall about that. I am seriously trying to move away from components obsession and focus on the fun instead.

I tell you what I'd like... a bike that I can ride at speed on soft arable land... is there such a thing?

northpole

Electric gears at the moment are nothing more than a pretty toy, that has no practical use other than providing slightly more accurate derailleur movement

Have to disagree with you on this point - much as I'd prefer you to be correct! My bike, which I have owned for a few years and tried to fettle, has finally got the better of me. It has a strange shaped chainstay through which the designers decided the rear derailleur cable should run. I have tried it with different cables and sheaths, I have tried it running externally. Often short term it has worked only to go out of true with resultant gears unavailable just when you least need them to do so; chain jumping at all the wrong times. Having researched various on line info it seems that there was an inherent compatability problem with the frame and 11 speed campag gears working in harmony. People on the web seem to have accepted this even if the manufacturer/ distributors don't. I'm much too late to bring it back and were it not for the fact that I really like the frame and the bike fit, it would no longer be in my ownership. The only option remaining open to me is to switch to electric shifting. No more reliance on cable routing which has been the death knell of my set up. From what I have heard, my bike is not alone regarding internal cable routing and problems with 11 speed groupsets. Too much design license focussing on the look and not enough on making a product which works efficiently.

My preference would be to stick with mechanical but I have reached the point where this option would require a new frame. Out of necessity therefore, not out of wanting a new pretty toy (mechanical still looks better imo) I will be changing gears electronically in the not too distant future.

Peter

ugo.santalucia

northpole wrote:

Electric gears at the moment are nothing more than a pretty toy, that has no practical use other than providing slightly more accurate derailleur movement

Have to disagree with you on this point - much as I'd prefer you to be correct! My bike, which I have owned for a few years and tried to fettle, has finally got the better of me. It has a strange shaped chainstay through which the designers decided the rear derailleur cable should run. I have tried it with different cables and sheaths, I have tried it running externally. Often short term it has worked only to go out of true with resultant gears unavailable just when you least need them to do so; chain jumping at all the wrong times. Having researched various on line info it seems that there was an inherent compatability problem with the frame and 11 speed campag gears working in harmony. People on the web seem to have accepted this even if the manufacturer/ distributors don't. I'm much too late to bring it back and were it not for the fact that I really like the frame and the bike fit, it would no longer be in my ownership. The only option remaining open to me is to switch to electric shifting. No more reliance on cable routing which has been the death knell of my set up. From what I have heard, my bike is not alone regarding internal cable routing and problems with 11 speed groupsets. Too much design license focussing on the look and not enough on making a product which works efficiently.

My preference would be to stick with mechanical but I have reached the point where this option would require a new frame. Out of necessity therefore, not out of wanting a new pretty toy (mechanical still looks better imo) I will be changing gears electronically in the not too distant future.

Peter

Well, if they deliberately create problems so that you can use the latest expensive solutions to overcome them... it seems to me innovation is going bananas.
I am following with interest also the latest silly trend of integrated brakes...
Luckily some smaller manufacturers (mainly UK and USA based) seem to go a different direction and offer bikes that people can actually ride...

northpole

Well, if they deliberately create problems so that you can use the latest expensive solutions to overcome them... it seems to me innovation is going bananas.

Agreed. Albeit you may be giving the designers more credit than they deserve.....

It's amazing how infuriating poor gear changes can become!

Peter

greasedscotsman

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Well, I can try it on someone else's bike, but no, I won't fit something I cannot fettle with on my bike... then when something goes wrong what do I do? I drive down to Sigma sport or walk the bike to Bike Lab and get charged 100 pounds to plug the bike into a laptop? C'mon I want a bicycle not a car.

Well, I'm not so interested in fettling "stuff". I'm quite happy to accept that if for example, a mechanical shifter fails, I'll just have to get a new one. Really not interested in stripping one down to see if I can repair it. And in 25 years of riding, I've only had one shifter fail, which was 15 (or so) years old. Really not bothered about that. I think your trying to make out it's more of a problem that it really is. So again, it's only really the cost that would put me off as any electronic system currently is going to cost more to replace.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

As for the "feel great"... as I said, I take no particular joy in shifting... if it's clunky or super buttery, as long as it works it's no big joy or concern to me. I confess you I have a Shimergo setup, which does work OK, some might say it's not buttery smooth as Di2 or EPS, but I care fuxkall about that. I am seriously trying to move away from components obsession and focus on the fun instead.

I do agree with you on that. I'm really not bothered about how smooth or clunky or buttery a setup is.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I tell you what I'd like... a bike that I can ride at speed on soft arable land... is there such a thing?

Dunno. No idea...

ugo.santalucia

greasedscotsman wrote:

Well, I'm not so interested in fettling "stuff". I'm quite happy to accept that if for example, a mechanical shifter fails, I'll just have to get a new one. Really not interested in stripping one down to see if I can repair it. And in 25 years of riding, I've only had one shifter fail, which was 15 (or so) years old. Really not bothered about that. I think your trying to make out it's more of a problem that it really is. So again, it's only really the cost that would put me off as any electronic system currently is going to cost more to replace.

It's not that... it's the fact that with a mechanical drivetrain, if there is a problem I know what the problem is and what needs be done, which might include replacing a shifter. I even know if the problem needs urgent attention or not.
WIth Di2 if it suddenly stops changing, I'd have to take it to the dealer... it becomes like having a car, which I can no longer repair. You have a number to call when things get messy, end of your responsability... I am not interested in that kind of ownership, that's all. The bicycle is a hobby which I do take in a holistic sense... from building it, to maintaining it, to riding it, cleaning, repairing. I accept others can't care less about the maintaining and are happy to pay Sigma Sport to do it and that's fine.
I guess I have seen too much A-Team and Dukes of Hazard as a kid...