Drag strips

themekon

Bearing in mind that the CTT with the time trial series are trying to persuade people off these fast courses. With events like this weekends in south Wales that has the first rider off at 9.00 and the last off at 1.00 and events on the Hull courses which regularly have entries of 240 riders .
It seems that no matter what people say they want they still want to chase that elusive fast time. The problem with this is that when that fast time does come,to improve you have to return yet again in hope of that float day.

BigFatBloke

themekon wrote:

Bearing in mind that the CTT with the time trial series are trying to persuade people off these fast courses. With events like this weekends in south Wales that has the first rider off at 9.00 and the last off at 1.00 and events on the Hull courses which regularly have entries of 240 riders .
It seems that no matter what people say they want they still want to chase that elusive fast time. The problem with this is that when that fast time does come,to improve you have to return yet again in hope of that float day.

As timetrialling becomes more aerodynamics based, the attraction of fast flat traffic assisted courses where aerodynamics is so much more important than on sporting courses becomes greater. Riders who are not inclined to invest in aerodynamic equipment or visits to wind tunnels become less and less competitive. The massive investment in cash or plastic credit which is so necessary to be competitive is a deterrent to younger riders with less expendable income from competing in time trials.

It is a vicious circle. Fast riders are respected, new talented riders want to prove their ability but can only get respect by setting fast times. To set a fast time you must enter a race on a fast course and you must be aerodynamic, so talented riders will travel huge distances to enter races on roads they would not dream of training or commuting on.

Recently a talented rider who chose to manufacture or tweak a more basic machine in an effort to compete in the aerodynamic arms race has been reported to the CTT for using an illegal machine. The people who are wanting him disqualified are mostly direct competitors riding the most expensive aerodynamic machines.

Some leading timetriallists have reached the stage where they do almost all their training exclusively on a turbo in their extreme TT position and only venture onto a road to race on a dual carriageway. This is not what cycling should be about.

SBezza

You will always have a selection of courses, I personally wouldn't say the CTT are trying to encourage people off the faster courses. The TT series runs alongside the other events, and has done for the last 10+ years. It is a series of circuit TT's that give a series winner, but the CTT also have championships for the standard distances which have run on the faster courses over the years. I ride all types of event, but then again there are some dual carriageway courses I will not ride. The beauty of time trials is you can ride whatever types of events you like.

There has always been an attraction to the faster drag strip courses, it isn't anything new. There are a lot of riders that are unlikely to ever be at the sharp end of the results, and what they target is the fastest time possible, this has always been the ethos of TT's.

IME all riders are respected, you certainly don't need to be fast to gain respect

BigFatBloke wrote:

Recently a talented rider who chose to manufacture or tweak a more basic machine in an effort to compete in the aerodynamic arms race has been reported to the CTT for using an illegal machine. The people who are wanting him disqualified are mostly direct competitors riding the most expensive aerodynamic machines.

I would be careful what you write, no-one is trying to get Nik DSQ, but some think his machine contravenes the rules, pure and simple, and have raised a complaint against the add-ons to his machine. It is up to the CTT to decide if the add-ons are classed as fairings (and if they classed as fairings, they are illegal according to the rules). Other riders want to know if that is acceptable, and the only way to determine that is to raise a complaint.

Nik's bike certainly wasn't a basic machine before the mods LOL, so I don't think Nik has a major disadvantage over some of the other riders. I until recently was competing very well on a very old alu compact road frame, and never felt the need to do mods to my machine that might break the rules.

BigFatBloke

So they want his machine disqualified and any times set on that machine voided? Or, if it is found his machine is illegal would his times set on that machine be allowed to stand?

imposter2.0

Why would times set on an 'illegal' bike be allowed to stand..??

BigFatBloke

Imposter wrote:

Why would times set on an 'illegal' bike be allowed to stand..??

Exactly. If his bike is found to be illegal he will not be allowed to use it in future and his results on that bike will be voided due to a DQ. So the act of reporting his machine is an attempt to get him DQd and perhaps more an attempt to stop him using it in future.

sub55

been involved in the tt scene for 25 years or so , both as a competitor and as an official. These discussions have been going on in all that time. Nothing has changed.
Fundamentally , despite what many say regarding a change to more sporting courses, if the sport is to survive ,it has to offer what people want and if you look at the numbers entering the faster events it becomes obvious that , thats what a great deal of riders want as their goal. Thats not to say that these people dont enter other events because they do. However, the PTW event this weekend down the bank is quite possibly their goal for the season. So why should anybody want to deny them that.

Pross

BigFatBloke wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Why would times set on an 'illegal' bike be allowed to stand..??

Exactly. If his bike is found to be illegal he will not be allowed to use it in future and his results on that bike will be voided due to a DQ. So the act of reporting his machine is an attempt to get him DQd and perhaps more an attempt to stop him using it in future.

So if he fitted a 50cc engine to the bike would it be acceptable for other riders to query it with the powers that be or would that also be them discriminating against him? There are rules on what bike designs can / cannot have and everyone has to comply whether they make home made alterations or buy a £10k bike. I don't see where the controversy is in this. CTT are already more lenient on what they allow than the UCI.

markos1963

I think racing on DCs might be on borrowed time anyway. Given the letters that have gone out from the Police and the Highways agency. I believe one event has already been cancelled in our area and our own Open was in doubt right up to the last week. Our club will certainly be reviewing our policy on where our races are going to be held.

BigFatBloke

markos1963 wrote:

I think racing on DCs might be on borrowed time anyway. Given the letters that have gone out from the Police and the Highways agency. I believe one event has already been cancelled in our area and our own Open was in doubt right up to the last week. Our club will certainly be reviewing our policy on where our races are going to be held.

What letters are these? Are they advising time trials should not be held on DCs? Is this just in your area?

markos1963

BigFatBloke wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

I think racing on DCs might be on borrowed time anyway. Given the letters that have gone out from the Police and the Highways agency. I believe one event has already been cancelled in our area and our own Open was in doubt right up to the last week. Our club will certainly be reviewing our policy on where our races are going to be held.

What letters are these? Are they advising time trials should not be held on DCs? Is this just in your area?

Yes letters from both advising not to hold any TTs on any of the local trunk roads, A11,A12,A47. Basically saying that in their opinion it's too dangerous and if an incident occurred then they would make it known to any interested parties we were warned not to hold a TT. I think this letter has gone out in Suffolk as well.

Pross

markos1963 wrote:

BigFatBloke wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

I think racing on DCs might be on borrowed time anyway. Given the letters that have gone out from the Police and the Highways agency. I believe one event has already been cancelled in our area and our own Open was in doubt right up to the last week. Our club will certainly be reviewing our policy on where our races are going to be held.

What letters are these? Are they advising time trials should not be held on DCs? Is this just in your area?

Yes letters from both advising not to hold any TTs on any of the local trunk roads, A11,A12,A47. Basically saying that in their opinion it's too dangerous and if an incident occurred then they would make it known to any interested parties we were warned not to hold a TT. I think this letter has gone out in Suffolk as well.

That's the standard response from Gwent Police whenever they are notified of a proposed cycling event. They are just covering themselves.

BigFatBloke

madasahattersley wrote:

Personally I am really against having courses like the V718 allowed. Yes this is controversial and most testers will say that it's 'completely safe' but I couldn't agree less. There are some statistics floating around that say that there are more accidents on sporting/circular courses but lets be honest every time there is an accident on a DC it's almost always a serious injury or a fatality.

The only reason I can actually see for people defending these courses is PB hunting. I know fairly poor riders who have gone sub 20 on the V718, and to me it means nothing and isn't impressive at all.

I'd rather be slow than dead.

Years ago we used to have a club 10 which had a few hills. There were people who couldn't get under 25 min on it who had PBs of 22 something.

Tom Butcher

A sub 20 is quite impressive to me even if they did it on the M1, although maybe not as impressive as finding a 10 mile stretch of the M1 free of traffic jams or roadworks.

DavidBelcher

madasahattersley wrote:

I'd rather be slow than dead.

^^^What he said. I'm firmly against the use of "dragstrip" trunk roads - the issue did actually contribute to a fairly divisive split in one of my old clubs, whilst down in this neck of the woods the appeal of using the A303 (which on a busy weekend does a very good impression of a motorway) baffles me. I've always fancied myself as a better-than-average climber* anyway, so prefer a "lumpy" sporting course every time.

David

*Sometimes rightly, sometimes not!

SBezza

BigFatBloke wrote:

So they want his machine disqualified and any times set on that machine voided? Or, if it is found his machine is illegal would his times set on that machine be allowed to stand?

No they want clarification on the mods he has done are acceptable or not and don't break the rules. If they are deemed acceptable it give them the opportunity to do likewise. Some feel what Nik has done is against the rules and as such a protest of the bike is needed to get an answer once and for all. No different to protests in F1 where teams want clarification of the rules if a team reads a rule differently to they do.

BigFatBloke

DavidBelcher wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

I'd rather be slow than dead.

^^^What he said. I'm firmly against the use of "dragstrip" trunk roads - the issue did actually contribute to a fairly divisive split in one of my old clubs, whilst down in this neck of the woods the appeal of using the A303 (which on a busy weekend does a very good impression of a motorway) baffles me. I've always fancied myself as a better-than-average climber* anyway, so prefer a "lumpy" sporting course every time.

David

*Sometimes rightly, sometimes not!

Some years ago now, I raised the safety of the A50 Etwall course with Derby Mercury. Despite considerable arguments and resignations and my leaving the club, the committee decided to continue holding events on that course.

Subsequently there has been a death on the A50 in a TT, the second in a TT on that course. Yet Derby Mercury and other clubs continue to hold TTs on the A50 despite the advice of the Police.

themekon

BigFatBloke wrote:

DavidBelcher wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

I'd rather be slow than dead.

^^^What he said. I'm firmly against the use of "dragstrip" trunk roads - the issue did actually contribute to a fairly divisive split in one of my old clubs, whilst down in this neck of the woods the appeal of using the A303 (which on a busy weekend does a very good impression of a motorway) baffles me. I've always fancied myself as a better-than-average climber* anyway, so prefer a "lumpy" sporting course every time.

David

*Sometimes rightly, sometimes not!

Some years ago now, I raised the safety of the A50 Etwall course with Derby Mercury. Despite considerable arguments and resignations and my leaving the club, the committee decided to continue holding events on that course.

Subsequently there has been a death on the A50 in a TT, the second in a TT on that course. Yet Derby Mercury and other clubs continue to hold TTs on the A50 despite the advice of the Police.

I wonder if traffic counts are still carried out. I cannot believe the start times of some events on the A50.When I last rode a 100 mile TT I was off at 6.00 am with hardly any traffic at all.Sometimes it's the vets who want these fast courses. I've heard a well known fast vet complaining that due to an early start he had " missed the traffic"

Team4Luke

sub55 wrote:

These discussions have been going on in all that time. Nothing has changed.

Entirely agree with the first two posts.
But it has, there are now more roads built and redeveloped than back in the day, surface is better and traffic flow is much higher, why don't these time chasers simply go for point to point tailwind records instead, RRA :!:

Perhaps we need equivalent of the Hour Record, Athletes and Superman groups for TT :roll:

Tom Butcher

BigFatBloke wrote:

DavidBelcher wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

I'd rather be slow than dead.

^^^What he said. I'm firmly against the use of "dragstrip" trunk roads - the issue did actually contribute to a fairly divisive split in one of my old clubs, whilst down in this neck of the woods the appeal of using the A303 (which on a busy weekend does a very good impression of a motorway) baffles me. I've always fancied myself as a better-than-average climber* anyway, so prefer a "lumpy" sporting course every time.

David

*Sometimes rightly, sometimes not!

Some years ago now, I raised the safety of the A50 Etwall course with Derby Mercury. Despite considerable arguments and resignations and my leaving the club, the committee decided to continue holding events on that course.

Subsequently there has been a death on the A50 in a TT, the second in a TT on that course. Yet Derby Mercury and other clubs continue to hold TTs on the A50 despite the advice of the Police.

Yes we do, I actually argued at the DMRC AGM a couple of years back that our club BAR competition actively encouraged riding these courses and that we should scrap it - we have a second BAR based on percentage of winners time anyway. After a fairly lively debate I was the only person who voted in favour of doing that.

LegendLust

madasahattersley wrote:

Personally I am really against having courses like the V718 allowed. Yes this is controversial and most testers will say that it's 'completely safe' but I couldn't agree less. There are some statistics floating around that say that there are more accidents on sporting/circular courses but lets be honest every time there is an accident on a DC it's almost always a serious injury or a fatality.

The only reason I can actually see for people defending these courses is PB hunting. I know fairly poor riders who have gone sub 20 on the V718, and to me it means nothing and isn't impressive at all.

I'd rather be slow than dead.

Jeez, you do sound arrogant sometimes. Anybody who can ride at 30mph+ for 10 miles (and bear in mind the 718 has a pretty slow turn with a couple of roundabouts) isn't a poor rider. I admit it isn't as impressive as someone doing a 19 on a single carriageway, sporting course. Have you done a 19 on the V718? For some reason riders all over the country think they just turn up at the 718 HQ, sign on, and the 19 is handed over with their number.

19s are hard earned on the 718. You should try it sometime.

LegendLust

madasahattersley wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Personally I am really against having courses like the V718 allowed. Yes this is controversial and most testers will say that it's 'completely safe' but I couldn't agree less. There are some statistics floating around that say that there are more accidents on sporting/circular courses but lets be honest every time there is an accident on a DC it's almost always a serious injury or a fatality.

The only reason I can actually see for people defending these courses is PB hunting. I know fairly poor riders who have gone sub 20 on the V718, and to me it means nothing and isn't impressive at all.

I'd rather be slow than dead.

Jeez, you do sound arrogant sometimes. Anybody who can ride at 30mph+ for 10 miles (and bear in mind the 718 has a pretty slow turn with a couple of roundabouts) isn't a poor rider. I admit it isn't as impressive as someone doing a 19 on a single carriageway, sporting course. Have you done a 19 on the V718? For some reason riders all over the country think they just turn up at the 718 HQ, sign on, and the 19 is handed over with their number.

19s are hard earned on the 718. You should try it sometime.

Did you actually read what I wrote or just get kneejerk sensitive to me saying some mates of mine aren't very good cyclists (which they openly admit to themselves).

Yes I did. I get your reasons for not riding DC courses – but how can you belittle a sub 20 min ride on a course you've never ridden? I suggest you and your mates re-appriase your opinions about your cycling abilities. OK you might not become pro's, but riding for 30mph+ for 10 miles is bloody impressive in my book, and something only a very talented and hard working club rider can achieve, even on a 'fast' course.

Neil Buckley

LegendLust wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Personally I am really against having courses like the V718 allowed. Yes this is controversial and most testers will say that it's 'completely safe' but I couldn't agree less. There are some statistics floating around that say that there are more accidents on sporting/circular courses but lets be honest every time there is an accident on a DC it's almost always a serious injury or a fatality.

The only reason I can actually see for people defending these courses is PB hunting. I know fairly poor riders who have gone sub 20 on the V718, and to me it means nothing and isn't impressive at all.

I'd rather be slow than dead.

Jeez, you do sound arrogant sometimes. Anybody who can ride at 30mph+ for 10 miles (and bear in mind the 718 has a pretty slow turn with a couple of roundabouts) isn't a poor rider. I admit it isn't as impressive as someone doing a 19 on a single carriageway, sporting course. Have you done a 19 on the V718? For some reason riders all over the country think they just turn up at the 718 HQ, sign on, and the 19 is handed over with their number.

19s are hard earned on the 718. You should try it sometime.

Normally don't tip up on these discussions as they are never rational, but I've turned onto the V718 to chase a PB and its fairly local, the V718 isn't a gift, but have you done a sub 20 or know the effort it takes? regardless of opinions you still need 31mph plus and/or 300w plus...

Neil Buckley

madasahattersley wrote:

No I haven't, and yes I do know what it takes

So i'm sure your 'fairly poor rider' isn't that because sub 20 on any course is hard, I've gone sub 20 and it nearly put me in hospital I went that hard.. For the record it wasn't on the V718... :P