Cyclist killed in lorry collision in West Dulwich

Stevo_666

Tragic and far too frequent now.

And like few other posters on this thread, quite close to home. I sometimes take the route down Gallery road and over the junction with Thurlow Park Road on the way home but have never gone onto the South Circular apart from once when experimenting with routes.

mtb-idle

sad, sad news again. I hadn't seen this story but passed by the accident scene on Tower Bridge on Tuesday evening (as I do every evening) when emergency services were in attendance and it was clear that it wasn't good.

redhanded

spen666 wrote:

A few photos of some wide streets means nothing. There are far more roads all over Britain where there is not space for cycling facilities seperate from motorised traffic, are those roads to be off limits to cyclists? They will certainly be more dangerous as you reduce the experience of motorists and cyclists inter reacting.

Just because it can't be done on ALL roads doesn't mean it can't be done on SOME roads, particularly in urban areas.

spen666 wrote:

Your idea wiill mean the end of Audaxes, sportives, club rides and even LEJoG and C2C rides as it will not be possible either financially or in terms of space to provide segregated cycling facilities on all roads

Rubbish. Are you saying these sort of activities don't exist in countries with better cycling infrastructure and lower cycling death rates than the UK?

spen666 wrote:

At present we have the right to use all roads but special roads for cycling. Why would you want to stop that or make it far more dangerous to use those roads?

I haven't - I'm saying let's have decent segregated infrastructure where it makes sense. It is you that is conflating this into "it will destroy cycling" nonsense.

spen666 wrote:

It will kill cycling as anything other than a pootle to the park or to the shop.

That says a lot about where you are coming from. What is the matter with a pootle to the park or the shop? Don't you want to encourage people doing that on a bike rather than driving? What is your solution to a mum who wants to cycle with their kids to school or nip down the shops but who is scared of HGVs whizzing past a few feet from her kids so she drives instead. It sounds like the only thing you have to offer is telling her to man up and don't worry because if someone kills her kids, they will get a stiff sentence.

spen666 wrote:

Taking your suggestion it is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. It works in all other aspects of life - we prosecute people who offend. For most people the fear of prosecution (& the penalties ) are enough to prevent them offending.

You are assuming deaths only result from driver offences. What if a death is the result of a cyclist making a mistake? Do you care about that? Serves them right? Shouldn't have made a mistake in the first place?

You are wrong about "it works in other aspects of life". In other aspects of life, like airlines, railways or industry, if people's mistakes result in loss of life, they try to design systems to stop people making mistakes in the first place, and if that isn't possible, design the system to minimise the impact of a mistake. Do you think an airline's safety record is only because people are scared of getting prosecuted?

spen666 wrote:

Dont bury your head in the sand face the causes of the problem and deal with them, do not advocate sticking plasters

The cause of the problem in London is big heavy HGVs squashing vulnerable people. Sometimes it will be the driver's fault, sometimes the cyclists fault, sometimes both. The solution is to separate them.

Would you support a ban on HGVs during the day as is the case in Paris and Dublin?

Or to use your logic, "to remove HGVs from the road will merely encourage cyclists to cycle badly as there is one less object in their way."

Koncordski

With all due respect spen666 this is borderline trolling as opposed to discussion. Nobody on this thread has made the statement that segregation means being banned from the roads thereafter. I'd rather have the option to pootle as you put it if i wasn't intererested in the cut and thrust of SCR one morning. Taking a selfish approach of i want to ride primary at 25mph can still happen, what we are arguing for is routes that people like the lady that's been killed can use. The greater good is best served by giving people options. You talk like it's one or the other, but evidence would suggest that taking lanes from motor vehicles to reallocate to bikes doesn't impact traffic flow (what a stupid phrase in central london) because the number of people in cars drops as they transfer to bikes. There are so many east-west and north-south routes in london that are multi lane in each direction and bordered by wide footpaths. Saying there is no space is simply not true.

bigmat

Koncordski wrote:

With all due respect spen666 this is borderline trolling as opposed to discussion. Nobody on this thread has made the statement that segregation means being banned from the roads thereafter. I'd rather have the option to pootle as you put it if i wasn't intererested in the cut and thrust of SCR one morning. Taking a selfish approach of i want to ride primary at 25mph can still happen, what we are arguing for is routes that people like the lady that's been killed can use. The greater good is best served by giving people options. You talk like it's one or the other, but evidence would suggest that taking lanes from motor vehicles to reallocate to bikes doesn't impact traffic flow (what a stupid phrase in central london) because the number of people in cars drops as they transfer to bikes. There are so many east-west and north-south routes in london that are multi lane in each direction and bordered by wide footpaths. Saying there is no space is simply not true.

I think Spen is basically saying "careful what you wish for". I can easily see a situation where segregated lanes are brought in (presumably inadequate - this is the UK after all) and then the attitude of drivers to cyclists on the road will become even harder - it wouldn't be a great leap for cyclists to end up being prohibited from using the highway where segregated lanes are available. Just because the Dutch have done it properly (I assume - I haven't cycled there for years and when I did it was the pootling round town variety) doesn't mean we would.

tetm

Scarily and sadly, I've just read this on a friend's Facebook wall:

"I held someone's hand as she died, today.

She had been cycling on the South Circular road in West Dulwich when a lorry drove straight over her. Horrific. Hopelessly, perhaps ridiculously, I gave her first aid. It turned out that her injuries were not survivable - massive internal haemorrhaging, broken leg(s) and her spine had been snapped in two, badly disfiguring her back.

Her name was Chiara. She was 30.

May London's Mayor succeed in his plans to enhance safety on these trucks - the motorway maintenance type (and others). They are rolling death traps. Menacing to look at and, all too often, menacingly driven. If Chiara's death helps to push that through - saving other lives in the process - it won't have been entirely in vain.

Rest in peace, Chiara. I knew you only briefly, but will never forget you. I can only hope your friends and family find the strength to deal with your untimely and wholly unnecessary death."

veronese68

Well done and thank you to TETM's friend, that must have been horrible. RIP Chiara, my thoughts are with you and yours.

DonDaddyD

Rest in Peace.

spen666

Koncordski wrote:

With all due respect spen666 this is borderline trolling as opposed to discussion.

Rule one of stifling debate - accuse anyone who disagreses with your views of trolling.

After all how dare anyone have concerns that differ from yours

Nobody on this thread has made the statement that segregation means being banned from the roads thereafter.

If as the poster I responded to has his way and we have complete segregation, then either Cyclists are banned from the roads by law - OR by actions of mortorists who demand you use the new facilites

I'd rather have the option to pootle as you put it if i wasn't intererested in the cut and thrust of SCR one morning.

no body is trying to stop pootling to the park. I have never suggested that. I think you are turning my words to say the opposite.

I am concerned at the loss of the ability to ride on the roads. I am notagainst people being able to pootle to thepark etc. Farfrom it

Taking a selfish approach of i want to ride primary at 25mph can still happen, what we are arguing for is routes that people like the lady that's been killed can use. The greater good is best served by giving people options. You talk like it's one or the other, but evidence would suggest that taking lanes from motor vehicles to reallocate to bikes doesn't impact traffic flow (what a stupid phrase in central london) because the number of people in cars drops as they transfer to bikes. There are so many east-west and north-south routes in london that are multi lane in each direction and bordered by wide footpaths. Saying there is no space is simply not true.

Green Brompton

That's really upsetting to read TETM.

It's awful that he just came from behind and ran her over as she was cycling.

RIP.

roger_merriman

RIP.

RE the what can be done, well central/mid london have big wide roads certainly the main roads, outer london less so, to the point modern buses almost don't fit.

So fitting some good wide cycle lanes central/mid London is a matter of priorities. it certainly could be done. Outer well less so but join up the royal parks and bits and bobs and it's not bad.

I haven't checked but death rates in London are on average 15 (give or take) last time I checked it was normal which is fairly grim really. the % that is HGV does seem to be if not easy picking at least where the effort should be.

Gallywomack

I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that more segregated cycling lanes would lead to a greater sense amongst motorists that cyclists should stick to them, and thus less tolerance amongst motorists for those cyclists who opt not to use them. And of course, that this would likely have a deleterious effect on those of us who are comfortable cycling in traffic, like to go fast (relative term of course), and don't necessarily want to have to share a segregated cycle lane with nodders, old ladies, young kids etc. For all that the infrastructure in the Netherlands looks great, I'm more or less certain that the kind of SCR we like to indulge in would not be possible, or at least appropriate, in your average Dutch city.

I suppose it comes down to whether or not you think there's a greater good involved that trumps our own individual wishes to be able to commute by bike exactly as we see fit. I tend to think that there is, partly because of the number of preventable deaths that we are seeing, partly because more people cycling would be A Good Thing. And I certainly believe that the current lack of segregated infrastructure actively discourages the vast majority of people from using a bike as a means of getting around.

I do understand the 'right to the road' thinking, and in an ideal world would prefer all road users to be able to share the road amicably and safely in all circumstances, but experience tells us this doesn't always happen, and sometimes the consequences when it doesn't are tragic. In certain circumstances, particularly in busy town centres, I think we have to let go of this idea and take a more practical view that the best and safest way for everyone to be able to get around by their chosen means of transport, is to keep them apart as much as possible. Outside of town centres, busy A-roads (which in many cases are motorways in all but name) could easily have segregated cycle paths running parallel, b-roads and unclassified lanes can and should be used by all with few difficulties.

Anyway, I think things are slowly moving the way of segrgation anyway and would expect a few successful pilot areas in London to prove that the model can be adopted elsewhere. I'll gladly trade my SCR for fewer deaths and more poeple feeling able to avail themselves of the health and financial benefits of using a bike to get around.

redhanded

Of course, the more people there are cycling, the less cyclists will be perceived as a minority and the more chance there is that other road users will also be regular cyclists. It is easy to victimise and have prejudices against any "out group"; more difficult if you are part of the group or know lots of people in the group.

There is also a difference between fast cycling and a fast journey. In the Netherlands, as I understand it, they have the concept of a "green wave" so if you stick between certain speeds, you will get green lights for all of the journey. Compare that with a commute when people sprint, hit a red light, wait. Sprint, hit a red light, wait. I wouldn't be surprised if a green wave approach actually means getting there quicker, or not significantly slower (of course, if someone RLJs, there is no waiting but that is a separate issue!)

Anyway, its getting a bit OT from the subject of this thread.

RIP to the person yesterday and sympathies to her family and friends.

jonny_trousers

tetm wrote:

Scarily and sadly, I've just read this on a friend's Facebook wall:

"I held someone's hand as she died, today.

She had been cycling on the South Circular road in West Dulwich when a lorry drove straight over her. Horrific. Hopelessly, perhaps ridiculously, I gave her first aid. It turned out that her injuries were not survivable - massive internal haemorrhaging, broken leg(s) and her spine had been snapped in two, badly disfiguring her back.

Her name was Chiara. She was 30.

May London's Mayor succeed in his plans to enhance safety on these trucks - the motorway maintenance type (and others). They are rolling death traps. Menacing to look at and, all too often, menacingly driven. If Chiara's death helps to push that through - saving other lives in the process - it won't have been entirely in vain.

Rest in peace, Chiara. I knew you only briefly, but will never forget you. I can only hope your friends and family find the strength to deal with your untimely and wholly unnecessary death."

That brings it home even stronger.

That's an awful little stretch where she was hit. The single lane suddenly becomes double for those wanting to turn right (and is often over-filled), thus making the inside one rather narrow. It also has a slight, sudden bend to it. I can easily see how a truck would take up all of the space and I know from experience that they are often hitting a good speed by that point.

I don't particularly believe that segregated cycle lanes everywhere are the practical answer, but spots like this could definitely do with widening at the very least. I'm also sick to the back teeth of seeing construction industry trucks being driven at speed. Even if the poor girl had been hit by a car she might well have made it. One of those things, however, no chance.

gabriel959

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

tetm wrote:

Scarily and sadly, I've just read this on a friend's Facebook wall:

"I held someone's hand as she died, today.

She had been cycling on the South Circular road in West Dulwich when a lorry drove straight over her. Horrific. Hopelessly, perhaps ridiculously, I gave her first aid. It turned out that her injuries were not survivable - massive internal haemorrhaging, broken leg(s) and her spine had been snapped in two, badly disfiguring her back.

Her name was Chiara. She was 30.

May London's Mayor succeed in his plans to enhance safety on these trucks - the motorway maintenance type (and others). They are rolling death traps. Menacing to look at and, all too often, menacingly driven. If Chiara's death helps to push that through - saving other lives in the process - it won't have been entirely in vain.

Rest in peace, Chiara. I knew you only briefly, but will never forget you. I can only hope your friends and family find the strength to deal with your untimely and wholly unnecessary death."

That brings it home even stronger.

That's an awful little stretch where she was hit. The single lane suddenly becomes double for those wanting to turn right (and is often over-filled), thus making the inside one rather narrow. It also has a slight, sudden bend to it. I can easily see how a truck would take up all of the space and I know from experience that they are often hitting a good speed by that point.

I don't particularly believe that segregated cycle lanes everywhere are the practical answer, but spots like this could definitely do with widening at the very least. I'm also sick to the back teeth of seeing construction industry trucks being driven at speed. Even if the poor girl had been hit by a car she might well have made it. One of those things, however, no chance.

Jesus, RIP

Gazzaputt

RIP

This sounds truly horrendous.

I stand by comments I made in threads before where these lorries kill.

I'm sorry but most are driven by people who have total disregard for human life in any form. I know this from the industry I work in and I come into contact with the drivers of tippers. They no concept that the vehicle they are driving is so deadly and it's all about getting the next load dropped or collected.

They need to be banned from city streets as no amount of training for the drivers will change things.

Kieran_Burns

I have to admit, I want to stop reading this thread after that facebook post.... I genuinely feel ill.

supersonic

Have full details of the accident been released yet?

cornerblock

So very sad. RIP Chiara. My deepest condolences to her family and friends.

monkimark

Just realsied that this is a girl I worked with (i didn't know her well) - makes it all the more sickeningly real.

Fireblade96

That's awful.

RIP.

I dread hearing a big truck coming up behind me. Not so much articulated lorries which are mostly well driven, but cement trucks, tipper trucks and skip lorries. These are almost always driven aggressively and at speed, with scant regard to other road users.

jonny_trousers

Fireblade96 wrote:

I dread hearing a big truck coming up behind me. Not so much articulated lorries which are mostly well driven, but cement trucks, tipper trucks and skip lorries. These are almost always driven aggressively and at speed, with scant regard to other road users.

Exactly! Is the training to drive one of these things less stringent than any other type of HGV?

As I waited to cross the South Circ today, less than a mile away from yesterday's horrible incident, I watched a tipper truck belt down the road at what must have been over 30mph.

dilemna

tetm wrote:

Scarily and sadly, I've just read this on a friend's Facebook wall:

"I held someone's hand as she died, today.

She had been cycling on the South Circular road in West Dulwich when a lorry drove straight over her. Horrific. Hopelessly, perhaps ridiculously, I gave her first aid. It turned out that her injuries were not survivable - massive internal haemorrhaging, broken leg(s) and her spine had been snapped in two, badly disfiguring her back.

Her name was Chiara. She was 30.

May London's Mayor succeed in his plans to enhance safety on these trucks - the motorway maintenance type (and others). They are rolling death traps. Menacing to look at and, all too often, menacingly driven. If Chiara's death helps to push that through - saving other lives in the process - it won't have been entirely in vain.

Rest in peace, Chiara. I knew you only briefly, but will never forget you. I can only hope your friends and family find the strength to deal with your untimely and wholly unnecessary death."

I'm in tears. RIP.

the_hundredth_idiot

I know that section of the South Circular well - it's by Belair Park where I used to walk my dog and DCPS where my eldest went for a while. It makes it all the more real for me when it's somewhere I know well and have cycled along many times.

The stories of the injuries are horrific - a terrible way to die.

RIP, Chiara.