"Races"

themekon

No a sportive is a sportive, a race is a race. No matter what sportive riders think.

charlie_potatoes

Two Boxers in the ring = fight
Two drunks brawling in the pub car park = fight

Two cyclists sprinting to the cake stop = race

No matter what the UCI thinks

Grill

madasahattersley wrote:

Following on from a recent topic, I was staggered at the number of people who were defending sportives being the same as races. WTF?!?

Where is this topic and who are these douchebags?

turnerjohn

race against yourself (time) maybe

Grill

turnerjohn wrote:

race against yourself (time) maybe

That's what TT's are for...

rolf_f

Grill wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Following on from a recent topic, I was staggered at the number of people who were defending sportives being the same as races. WTF?!?

Where is this topic and who are these douchebags?

And why start a new thread to make a counter argument to an existing thread?

bernithebiker

This is a feeble attempt to drum up support by mis-quoting the facts, which can be found here;

viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12939523

ugo.santalucia

Luke,

People are entitled to have their own opinions and ideas... there are more facets to a story and yours is only one. By posting a thread like this, you want to state some form of moral superiority of "legalised races" vs "illegal races" and implicitly you might be misunderstood as someone who believes racing makes you morally superior in cycling terms. There is no such thing... in other countries sportives are branded as races, there are teams, tactics, support vehicles, prizes and doping... they are no different in their format to a UK sportive but for a mass start.

Most importantly, accept others' opinions... as you are not right and you're not wrong either.... 2+2 =4, all the rest is questionable

ugo.santalucia

madasahattersley wrote:

No no no I didn't mean anything like that - I fully appreciate sportive riding and realise it's just another form of cycling I was just shocked at how many peolple were genuinely convinced that the two were the same thing.

Yes, but you have to understand how your attitude is perceived by others... might sound something along the lines of

"here is the wannabe Cavendish racing in the lower ranks that wants to teach us what is a real race and what is not".

It would have come across differently if you rephrased the topic to make it sound less "I am right, I can't believe so many people are wrong" and more of a "what do you thing about X?"

frisbee

It doesn't matter, it isn't life and death. They are completely superficial events, whether it is a sportive full of fat 50-somethings or the Tour de France.

Go to medical school or become a politician, don't waste your time trying to categorise what meets the criteria to be considered a bike race.

zardoz

The OED definition of a race is "A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course." So who is right?

hatch87

zardoz wrote:

The OED definition of a race is "A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course." So who is right?

And thats where a sportive is not a race, although you are timed, there is no attempt to show who was the fastest, unless you personally want to search though the 1000 entrants times and then try to work out who originally planned to do 100 miles, then dropped to the standard route mid way.

It's just a training day with feed stations and lots of other people

DavidJB

Only people that haven't raced think sportives are races.

ugo.santalucia

frisbee wrote:

It doesn't matter, it isn't life and death. They are completely superficial events, whether it is a sportive full of fat 50-somethings or the Tour de France.

Go to medical school or become a politician, don't waste your time trying to categorise what meets the criteria to be considered a bike race.

This is a good piece of advice...

zardoz

Seen it all before in the running boom in the 70's and 80's "serious" runners tried to put down the fun runners and joggers and the mass participation events. Its sporting snobbery no more no less. Why do people get so hung up on these meaningless arguments. It really doesn't matter.

slowbike

It's all a race - whether it's trying to catch someone on the way home, riding a sportive, doing a TT or entering a race.

Sportives may not be official races, but there will be ppl there trying to achieve their best time or maybe just trying to beat their mates. No, it's not a serious race - but a form of racing it is ... even if you do have to give way to horses ...

Is a sportive like a roadrace? Unless they've introduced cake stops in road racing then I seriously doubt it ...

Anyway - what does it matter - unless you're pro you're doing it because you want to and should be enjoying it - if you're pro you should be enjoying it anyway!

ugo.santalucia

Slowbike wrote:

... even if you do have to give way to horses ...

In the Paris-Roubaix UCI PRO event they have to stop at the level crossing and give way to the train... it has happened just a few years ago

zardoz

ugo.santalucia wrote:

In the Paris-Roubaix UCI PRO event they have to stop at the level crossing and give way to the train... it has happened just a few years ago

It happened on stage 16 in the TDF this year as well.

Pross

Slightly cowardly to back out of the original thread and then set another up in a different part of the forum without even giving the full facts.

This does not relate to UK sportives but to a French version which, like Italian Gran Fondos, are split into competitive and non-competitive. The competitive versions (as Bernie explained) require riders to have a health certificate, riders are often gridded and take part in a mass start. There are prizes awarded to winners and in Italy (not sure about France) there are sponsored pro teams that purely ride these events and riders have even been tested positive for EPO at them. That has all the hallmarks of a race to me. To argue that it isn't a race is like claiming the London Marathon isn't a race because most of those taking part are in fancy dress and / or running for charity and to do the best they can.

A UK sportive is very definitely not a race. BC are at pains to keep it that way for legal and insurance purposes and I believe they don't allow prizes and results are not supposed to be printed in order of who was fastest.

As for people who say you'll know the difference once you've raced and would say try riding an Italian Gran Fondo in the front group then make the same statement. Even in the UK most of the quickest riders in sportives will also be racing cyclists - a friend of mine who carefully finished last season on 199 points and has been a top cyclist for over 25 years recently had the 2nd fastest finish time in a local 100 mile sportive described it as the hardest ride he's done in ages. So, whilst UK sportives are not races to suggest that people who ride them quickly are in some way inferior riders to those who race is complete rubbish.

I'm not a fan of sportives and hate the idea of forking out double a road race entry fee to ride on open public roads (I'm taking up audax next year) but you cannot compare European events with different rules and regulations with what we have over here.

Mikey23

Noun or verb... A race v to race
Seems pretty clear to me and not summat to fall out over...

bernithebiker

Pross wrote:

Slightly cowardly to back out of the original thread and then set another up in a different part of the forum without even giving the full facts.

This does not relate to UK sportives but to a French version which, like Italian Gran Fondos, are split into competitive and non-competitive. The competitive versions (as Bernie explained) require riders to have a health certificate, riders are often gridded and take part in a mass start. There are prizes awarded to winners and in Italy (not sure about France) there are sponsored pro teams that purely ride these events and riders have even been tested positive for EPO at them. That has all the hallmarks of a race to me. To argue that it isn't a race is like claiming the London Marathon isn't a race because most of those taking part are in fancy dress and / or running for charity and to do the best they can.

A UK sportive is very definitely not a race. BC are at pains to keep it that way for legal and insurance purposes and I believe they don't allow prizes and results are not supposed to be printed in order of who was fastest.

As for people who say you'll know the difference once you've raced and would say try riding an Italian Gran Fondo in the front group then make the same statement. Even in the UK most of the quickest riders in sportives will also be racing cyclists - a friend of mine who carefully finished last season on 199 points and has been a top cyclist for over 25 years recently had the 2nd fastest finish time in a local 100 mile sportive described it as the hardest ride he's done in ages. So, whilst UK sportives are not races to suggest that people who ride them quickly are in some way inferior riders to those who race is complete rubbish.

I'm not a fan of sportives and hate the idea of forking out double a road race entry fee to ride on open public roads (I'm taking up audax next year) but you cannot compare European events with different rules and regulations with what we have over here.

Thank the Lord for an intelligent, reasoned post that explains it clearly to those that just don't get it.

DavidJB

Pross wrote:

As for people who say you'll know the difference once you've raced and would say try riding an Italian Gran Fondo in the front group then make the same statement.

Edit: Sorry I didn't see the original context about Grand Fondos in the other thread so thats why they were being brought up. I'll leave my original reply in tact though.

My comments are purely directed at UK based events seen as that's where I live and thats where 95%+ of the readership here will ride. I'm ill placed to talk about riding Italian Grand Fondo's having never ridden one. I've ridden 2 UK sportives this year and in both events I've seen the aftermath of nasty crashes from people going too fast. One was the dragon and the number of dangerous riders thinking it was a race was scary and to be honest I'd have felt safer in a 4th cat race.

I think bringing up foreign events is ill placed they are clearly designed to be competitive and UK sportives are not so they are different beasts entirely. I know you organise races pross (having taken part in one earlier this year) so I respect your opinion on the matter and at the end of the day babbling on here about sportives aren't or are races isn't going to change the way people ride on them . I just know after my experiences on the dragon I'm not in a rush to take part in another sportive (unless it is a grand fondo ).

No one is saying (or should be saying) sportive riders are 'inferior' we are just saying races and sportives are very different beats and the skills gap in a sportive is massive so people shouldn't be riding like idiots and causing incidents with less-able riders and I think we can all agree on that!

Rodrego Hernandez

In the UK people who race see sportives as training, people who don't race see sportives as racing.

BC needs to clamp down on these 'races' because before we know it, there will be no road races left in the UK. Just 'races' where everyone gets a medal at the end. I mean for fvcks sake there's been 2 sportives on TV so far this year. What on earth is that all about?

Pross

David, unfortunately the OP (probably deliberately) failed to mention that the event being discussed in the other thread was a French sportive the Berni took part in and he had clearly explained the different way things are done over there. The OP amongst others then flamed him I suspect without any idea of whether French sportives are or aren't races. He then comes here and sets up a whole new thread in an attempt to garner support for his opinion without giving the full details.

imposter2.0

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

I mean for fvcks sake there's been 2 sportives on TV so far this year. What on earth is that all about?

Probably the same reason that the BBC always interviews people wearing giraffe/shrek/batman costumes (delete as appropriate) during the London Marathon..

Grill

Pross wrote:

David, unfortunately the OP (probably deliberately) failed to mention that the event being discussed in the other thread was a French sportive the Berni took part in and he had clearly explained the different way things are done over there. The OP amongst others then flamed him I suspect without any idea of whether French sportives are or aren't races. He then comes here and sets up a whole new thread in an attempt to garner support for his opinion without giving the full details.

Indeed. Thanks for the clarification and I'm glad I didn't get involved!

ugo.santalucia

zardoz wrote:

Seen it all before in the running boom in the 70's and 80's "serious" runners tried to put down the fun runners and joggers and the mass participation events. Its sporting snobbery no more no less. Why do people get so hung up on these meaningless arguments. It really doesn't matter.

Absolutely, every single guy in my former club became terribly snobbish when he started racing... they were talking about team tactics and how to be in the right place at the right time for the sprint, when in reality most of the time they got dropped well before the last lap...

mpatts

Some events I've done this year:

MK half Marathon: Running with a few thousand people, on some closed roads, but mostly on public routes
Mk Sportive: Riding with a few thousand people, on some closed roads, but mostly on public routes.

The first is called a race, the second is not.

Personally, the way I do them, neither is a race. I'm not sure the classification is at all helpful.

Pross

But on the other thread no-one was defending UK sportives as races. It was stressed several times that the event that raised the issue was in France where things are run differently.

Grill

Even audaxes are run differently there. Look at the difference between PBP and LEL...

marcusjb

Grill wrote:

Even audaxes are run differently there. Look at the difference between PBP and LEL...

Don't forget it gets even more technical than that, if you're a saddo like me - there is PBP Audax (which is completely different to what we consider Audax riding behind a road captain in groups at a preset speed, runs every 5 years) and PBP Randonneur (which is the one everyone rides at their own pace and is every 4 years - this is the one most people are talking about when they talk about PBP, few AUKs have ridden PBP Audax).

I'll leave you all to discuss what's racing and what's not now - but put two or more men on bikes anywhere, any time, and it's a race.