New Wheels

andrew549

Hi

I'm looking for a new set of hand built wheels, I've been looking at getting fairly light weight pair of low profile aluminium rims. They would be a set for good weather rides as I already have a stronger more durable set for all weather.
Budget is about £450, I weigh 65kg so was thinking of going for 20/24 or 24/28.
Was thinking of getting Stans alpha 340 rims on a set of light weight hubs probably some novatecs with sapim lasers or similar.

If anyone has any other recommendations for wheels at about 1300g.

Thanks

Camcycle1974

Before people chime in and say "do a search" (which you should by the way!) my advice would be to contact the Cycle Clinic on here. If weight is the primary concern I would guess that the Kinlin XR-200 rim with Novatec hubs and Laser spokes would come in around that weight and cost less than your specified budget. Best to speak to him though. At 65kgs the above rim should be fine. You could get a set of Archetypes done with the same hubs 20/24 which would come in around 1.5kgs and be more durable.

styxd

Go 24/28 - Stans rims arent as stiff as some.

Also, get some race spokes on the rear wheel as opposed to lazers.

Camcycle1974

My Archetypes are 28/32 with Sapim Race spokes which is probably a bit overkill at my weight. Doubt a few extra spokes will slow me down much though. Durability I would value more than weight, don't believe a couple of hundred grams will make much difference performance wise.

andrew549

My current wheels are mavic open pros with 105 hubs 36/36 with dt swiss competitions so was looking for something a lot lighter and don't mind something less durable as they would only be my best wheels for good weather rides.

ugo.santalucia

Not a big fan of the Alpha 340...
A set of Archetype 20/24 with light spokes can go down to 1400-1450 grams. There are lighter rims, but these have the best feedback. I have built 40 sets of Archetype I think, from 20/24 to 32/32 and everybody love them.
Otherwise Kinlin XR 300 can be built as 20/24 and give you a bit more aerodynamic at the same weight.
For a light rim, then I like Velocity aerohead, I weighed them at around 410 grams

andrew549

Any reasons for not liking the alpha 340s I know they had some issues in when the first came out but that seems to have been resolved now.

What hubs do people recommend as being light weight but fairly cheap.

I'm also looking for a wheel builder either in the Southampton area or Berkshire.

ugo.santalucia

andrew549 wrote:

Any reasons for not liking the alpha 340s I know they had some issues in when the first came out but that seems to have been resolved now.

What hubs do people recommend as being light weight but fairly cheap.

I'm also looking for a wheel builder either in the Southampton area or Berkshire.

The first batch used to crack, they are also too light to build as 20/24 as you mention. Very light wheels can be extremely disappointing on the road... there is very little scope to go under 1500 grams, even for a very light rider.
Hubs: yes, Novatec 291/482 if you don't mind replacing the bearings frequently. They use bearings with very tiny balls that wear out quickly... my experience is that they last 1000 miles, sometimes more, sometimes even less

styxd

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Very light wheels can be extremely disappointing on the road... there is very little scope to go under 1500 grams

That's good advice. Of course you can go lighter with carbon, but with alloy rims, you start to sacrifice strength/stiffness/durability etc. All of which affect the ride of your bike far more than a couple of hundred grams on the wheels.

Get some wide rims like A23's/Archetypes with a stiff build, wide comfy tyres and light wegiht tubes. Perfect

cycleclinic

I am also no fan of the Stan alpha 340 expenive and not very stiff. The Kinlin XR-200 is alot cheaper, stiffer I think (maringal though) and a very good rim. I ride on them with no issue but soft brake pads MUST be used with these.
24 spoke front radial with laser spokes/alloy nipples and 28 spoke rear laser spokes and alloy nipples with Novatec A291/F482 for weight weenies would work well and come in at around 1350g or if durable hubs are required then Novatec A171/F172 or Miche Primato's could be used weight would be more. A build with Dura ace hub would exceed your budget. and the above option would come in below budget. I am not taken but they new Vai hubs.

The Kinlin XR-300's are another good rim in 20 spoke front and 24 spoke rear again with Novatec A291/F482 hubs laser spoke/alloy nipples comes in at just under 1500g (1485g I think). I have just finished a set for a chap in Finland with DT Swiss 240 hubs but with a 28 spoke rear and these rims are excellent and build a even tensioned very round (within 0.2mm round) wheel.
Miche Primato hubs could also be used with the XR-300 as I have plenty in 20H/24H drilling now. These are more duable than the light weight Novatec's but are 125g heavier for the pair.

The H Plus Son archetype is another option but the rim is heavier. 20 spoke front 24 spoke rear could be possible for you. The rim is not light and it not possible to get sub 1500g build with these except with very light (sub 300g) and very expensive hubs which I am not recomending. Mostly with the Archetypes given the type of rim they are I build 24 spoke front 28 spoke rear or 28 spoke front and 32 spoke rear with Novatec or Miche hubs for a durable good looking do it all wheelset. These however are all 1600-1800g in weight not what you the OP described.

The other rims that could work for you are the Dt Swiss RR440 these are now available in 24H and 28H drilling. They are quite exepenive and while not as wide as an archetype they are a well made rim than wider (21 mm) than the standard 19mm wide rims. Couple these two some decent hubs and you will have a lovely wheelset than will weight in at 16100g or a less depending on hubs.

Dt Swiss have now widthdrawn the RR415 which is there lightweight rim. I have bought all the remaing stock that Madison had though. These rims build wheel set from 1450g in weight and you are light enough for them. They also seem pretty durable, I can say this as I have them on my winter bike (not an obvious choice but it seems to work for me).

The velocity Aerohead is the other light weight rim out there but the Kinlin XR-200 is lot lighter.

I think from what you describe either the XR-200 or XR-300 wheelset would be suitable without breaking the bank. There is also the XR-270 rim in a 24 spoke front and 28 spoke rear but I am not sure that this combination as I prefer the XR-300 rim as it is simply better.

The spokes quoted above are all Sapim's as that is all I use. The Laser is the equivelent of the DT Swiss Revolution and the Race is the equivelent of the DT Swiss Comeptiton.

Rim weights
STans alpha 340 ~385g expenive and I don't see the point
Kinlin XR-200 ~385g light but you must use soft pads
Kinlin XR-300 ~465g excellent again soft pads are a good idea semi aero profile, very stiff
DT Swiss RR415 ~415g-425g light 28H or 32H drilling and for light riders (80kg rider are fine on these)
DT Swiss RR440 ~450g wider rims good quality suitable for rider of all weight 24H,28H,32H availability
H Plus Son Archetype 480g 20H-36H excelent in every way 23mm wide but not a weight weenie rim.

52 (24F/28R) Sapim Laser/DTSwiss Rev with alloy nipples ~260g
44 Sapim Laser/DT Swiss rev spokes with alloy nipples ~220g

Novatec A291/F482 hubs 325g not a lover of the wet but otherwise fine. There is an 11 speed shimano freehub body but only available from Taiwan -BDOP and others.
Novatec A171/F172 hub 390g - decent hubs same as Ambrosio Zenith as the Zenith is a rebadged version. 10 speed shimano unless you buy from Taiwan.
Noavtec A171/F272 (campag version) 375g I have weight a few and they do come up lighter for some reason.
Miche Primato/racing box 450g very durable but you pay for it with weight. 11 speed shimano freehub body or campag 9/10/11 speed as standard now.
Dura Ace 9000 370g excellent in evey way but will set you back at least £350/pair.
DT Swiss 240 hubs ~315g and cost around £380. I would not suggest thes though with any light weight rims like the Kinlin XR-200 DT Swiss RR415 or aeroheads unless the rear spoke count is 28 and Race/Comps are used on at least one side of the rear wheel (DS) as otherwise lateral stiffnes might not be enough for you.

andrew549

Thanks for the advice I'll have a look at the kinlin xr-200 what sort of pads would you recommend for them.

For hubs I have been looking at the novatec A291/F482 but I can't seem to find anyone selling them in the UK, I was also looking at the bike hub store hubs which seem to get some reviews as well as being quite cheap and fairly light.

How much would be a reasonable amount to pay for getting a wheel set built up and for spokes and nipples.

ugo.santalucia

andrew549 wrote:

For hubs I have been looking at the novatec A291/F482 but I can't seem to find anyone selling them in the UK,

Despite everybody telling you they are not very durable... :evil:

andrew549

Ok I'll have a better look at some of the other available hubs particularly some of the more durable hubs.

But it still doesn't solve the issue of me not being able to find anyone in the UK selling novatec hubs.

cycleclinic

I sell these hubs in all drillings but I must admit I do sell them with a warning about wet weather use.

I hope I can say this without getting into trouble here. On my website you will find a XR-200 build with novatec hub see my sig which will tell how much I would do them for. Ignore the pricing on the front page of the road wheels page as this needs updating but the pricing in the XR-200 page itself is correct.

To say these lightweight novatec's hubs are not very durable is true and it isn't though. If you use then in the filthy wet they may not be very durable at all. I have 3000 miles on mine without bearing changes so they are working well for me. Maybe I am lucky but I know other's who are also similarly lucky them. We all use them in the dry though.

For a hub to use in all weathers e.t.c think Miche.

ugo.santalucia

The 482 has a left bearing which is a 15x24... that means the balls are roughly 2.5 mm in diameter... they are under engineered for the job and wear out quickly. As they do, the seal doesn't fit snug anymore allowing moisture to get inside and killing the bearing for good. That happens remarkably quickly if you ride in the wet. Other Novatec hubs use 12x24 bearings, which means the balls are roughly 3.5-4mm, much more hard wearing, much more durable cartridge, even in the presence of moisture

cycleclinic

The bearing size is a problem so the solution here is to use them for riders who do not weight to much. Heavier riders will wear the bearings more qucikly. However they are light and there is no other hub for the money that is as light without importing some from the U.S like Bitex and the like.

I do prefer hubs with bigger bearing than found in these A291/F482 hubs and I do not build with these too often as I am quite selective as to who I use them with - light riders who will them in the dry.

Also the bearings used in these are the cheaper NBK and these a mid range bearing. More expensive INA bearings will be going in my when the bearing fail and that should give longer bearing life. The difference between the NBK and INA bearing is the roundness of the balls and the surface hardness of the races. Grade 300 or similar in NBK and grade 10 in INA bearings. The rounder the ball the longer the bearing lasts.

There are however more durable hubs out there Novatec A171/F172 and Miche as well as DT Swiss, Shimano e.t.c but all these with the exception of DT Swiss 240's weight more if that is of concern. Of course weight is not of cocern if yu are going to be sensible.

do not under any curcumstances taker the above as I am recomemnding A291/F482 hubs above other hubs, I am not. I myself have a variety of wheels with these light weigh novatec hubs, with miche hubs, shimano ultegra, camapgnolo record and Dura Ace 7403. All of these wheels meet different needs and I except that the wheels with the novatec A291/F482 will need more frequent bearing changes/servincing than my other wheels do but they are very light and that is what I want from these. My Miche dura ace, ultegra and record hubbed wheels need very little servcing and are far more sensible and not that heavy (my miche hubbed wheels are quite light in fact). The record hubs I have are the freewheel variety and are over 30 years old and are perfect in every way.

housemunkey

andrew549 wrote:

My current wheels are mavic open pros with 105 hubs 36/36 with dt swiss competitions so was looking for something a lot lighter and don't mind something less durable as they would only be my best wheels for good weather rides.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

andrew549 wrote:

For hubs I have been looking at the novatec A291/F482 but I can't seem to find anyone selling them in the UK,

Despite everybody telling you they are not very durable... :evil:

cycleclinic

Well the OP would get the feeling of lighter wheels with just a lighter wheel and the heavier but still light Novatec hubs.

Or maybe Campagnolo Record hubs with a shimano freehub body on DT Swiss R415 or velocity aeroheads Kinlin rims or another combination. That way you get light weight and durability. Such a wheeset would be 1540g (ish) if built with Laser/alloy nipples and feel completley different to what you have as it will be about 600g lighter than what you have depending on what spokes have been used.

As for pads for the XR-200 rims (which come in 32H drilling if needed) Koolstop salmon pads work well. Do not use clarks or similar hard wearing pads as they will chew through the rim in short order. For this reason if you want a durable hub pick a durable rim.

andrew549

Would hope pro 3s be a reasonable hub a bit heavier and more expensive but still within budget and look to be a more durable hub.

housemunkey

andrew549 wrote:

Would hope pro 3s be a reasonable hub a bit heavier and more expensive but still within budget and look to be a more durable hub.

Pro 3's are top, end of.

cycleclinic

Pro 3's are decent due to the INA bearings used in the hubs. However they are only avilable in 28H and 32H (and 36H?) drillings which is a bit limiting. DT Swiss 350 hubs have the same issue not enough drillings. Miche hubs come in more drillings as do the cheaper Novatec's of course you could put INA bearing in both these hubs and for less money have the best of both worlds. However the bearing life from a cheap novatc A171/F172 hub is pretty good and for a dry weather bike you will see 10000 miles or more from the bearings.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Pro 3's are decent due to the INA bearings used in the hubs. However they are only avilable in 28H and 32H (and 36H?) drillings which is a bit limiting. DT Swiss 350 hubs have the same issue not enough drillings. Miche hubs come in more drillings as do the cheaper Novatec's of course you could put INA bearing in both these hubs and for less money have the best of both worlds. However the bearing life from a cheap novatc A171/F172 hub is pretty good and for a dry weather bike you will see 10000 miles or more from the bearings.

You can order PRO 3 in all drillings from 16 to 36 front and from 20-36 rear

cycleclinic

Well that is good to know. I need to try and talk to hope again as the last time all they wanted to do is sell me a package including there wheels. I do not want there wheels, grips, BB, head doctors e.t.c. I want there hubs and disc brake systems but they seem unwilling to to sell just those on an inital order.

The hubs are fine there sales tatics are not.

andrew549

Are the kinlin XR-200 rims the same as the IRD Niobium cadence ones just under a different name as I've seen some stuff saying that they are just rebranded rims.

ugo.santalucia

andrew549 wrote:

Are the kinlin XR-200 rims the same as the IRD Niobium cadence ones just under a different name as I've seen some stuff saying that they are just rebranded rims.

Yes, IRD are rebadged Kinlin rims... so much for they claiming Design credentials... :?

cycleclinic

I tried talking to Hope again and they still want me to buy there wheels, silly Hope. The Kinlin will be cheaper I think than the IRD also the Kinlin come's without any decals of any kind which I like alot. I dislike strong branding (unless it says Campagnolo.