Shimergo-ing my 7 speed Condor 531

drlodge

I have an old Condor 531 professional frame, 126mm OLD. It has a 7 speed uniglide cassette, using 9 speed Shimano Hyperglide sprockets (which are slightly narrower than 7 speed and dremmeled to accept the freehub body), and 8 speed Sora/2300 shifters. The cassette sprocket spacing is nominally 5mm, Sora/2300 8 speed is designed for 4.8mm. Its not exactly the same, but its close enough and it shifts fine.

I don't like the feel of these 2300 shifters and would much prefer a Campagnolo shifter, in fact I have been considering changing the whole bike to a modern 10/11 speed Campag groupset since I cannot cold set the Condor frame seeing as though it has 753 rear stays (so says Reynolds).

I just saw this diagram which got me wondering:


Does this mean I can quite easily fit Campag 10 speed (Veloce/Chorus/Record) shifters and use them with my existing 7 speed cassette and Shimano (modern Dura Ace) RD?

g00se

I think so. I'm a bit confused with the cassette/sprocket description, but you should be able to replace 8-speed sora levers with 10 speed campag levers.

drlodge

g00se wrote:

I think so. I'm a bit confused with the cassette/sprocket description, but you should be able to replace 8-speed sora levers with 10 speed campag levers.

Thanks - the cassette is essentially 7/8 speed spacing, just that I used some sprockets off a 9 speed cassettes to get the number of teeth I wanted, with the 7 speed spacers. I've ordered the Veloce 10 speed levers from Ribble, will see if its works - can't see why it wouldn't.

satanas

Yes, N-2 is known to work when combining Ergo levers with Shimano derailleurs and cassettes. So Campag 10 Ergo + Shimano 8 spaced rear end is good, and Campag 11 Ergo + Shimano 9 spaced rear end is also good. In practice Shimano 7 & 8 are close enough that it usually doesn't matter, and Campag 8 is the same as Shimano 7 so should also interchange.

There are also these: http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.php and these: http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmatestraight.php which can solve quite a few problems.

FWIW, a Shimano 7 speed hub will accept 8 cogs with Shimano 9 spacing, or 9 cogs with Shimano 10 spacing.

alan_sherman

Although you cannot cold set your frame, can't you just spring it out enough to get the extra 4mm. I do this on a cheaper frame very successfully. Worth a go?

satanas

^ Not according to Tony Oliver. In his 1990 book "Touring Bikes: a practical guide" he says on pp. 24-25:

"If your fork-ends are 120mm or 126mm apart, do not be tempted to spring the backend to fit such wide hubs. The extra stresses cause premature fork-end failure. Believe you me, this type of fatigue breakage is quite common and exceedingly annoying when it happens on tour."

On the other hand, Shimano supplied their Dura-Ace 8 speed hubs with domed locknuts to spread then-standard 126mm frames as the wheel was inserted, and I've been using a set on a 126mm frame since 1991 with no problems.

drlodge

UPDATE: Eventually had time to fit the Campag 10 speed levers to my 7 speed Condor. It works...perfectly. The feel of the hoods is just like my super record shifters, and the gear change is quick and smooth. The only thing to adjust is the position of the shifters on the bars, need them a little higher/closer to me.

mattsccm

I am going to question the fact that your 531 frame has 753 stays. Not impossible, just unlikely. If 531 just bend away to 130.
If not bending can you loose a bit off the lockrings? I can get a 135 Shimano hub to 130 easily enough so this may work. Then you just bung on a 10 speed Ambrosio cassette that is Shimano splined (8/9/10 speed freehub needed) and the 10 speed Ergos you fancy.
If you can squeeze 8 sprockets in you can fit 10.

drlodge

May be my frame has 531 stays, may they're 753 I don't know for sure. What I do know is that Reynolds tells me the 531 Professional tube set has 753 stays, however when I enquired at Condor, they said it has 531 stays.

My cassette doesn't have a lock ring, its a 7 speed 126mm Dura Ace hub where the smallest sprocket screws onto the freehub directly. Without changing the hub and hence wheel, I have to keep actually the two smallest sprockets, and I used sprockets from a 9 speed cassette to make up the other 5 sprockets with the desired number of teeth. (13-14-16-18-21-24-28).

To move to a 10 speed I would need a new hub, rear wheel, cassette and rear derailleur, and it just itsn't worth it. I now have the feel of the Campag hoods which is all I want. What I don't have is quite such a small difference between the gears but that's no big issue for my winter/commuting bike.

satanas

I have two Tony Oliver frames made in the 1980s. The first is mostly 531 SL, and the second is mostly 531 Pro. As I understand it, neither of these frames contains even a single piece of 753. If we were talking about 653, then yes the stays are meant to be 753, the forks are 531 and the main tubes have a modulus in between the two. Tony's book says the modulus for 531/653/753 "metal" is 802/925/1315 N/mm^2 respectively.

drlodge

I updated with wikipedia site a while back having spoken to Reynolds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_Cycle_Technology

531SL - Special lightweight (SL) tubeset, comprising 531 main tubes drawn thinner than standard 531, and stiff 531 rear stays [hence no 753 in that]

531 Professional - Superseded 531SL, for road racing and time trials. Comprises 531 lightweight main tubes and 753R rear stays. Early versions used 753T rear stays [as I said above]

653 - Was a mixed tubeset which superseded 531 Profesional and combined tubings of different steels; made up of 753 rear stays with 531 light weight main tubes and 531 forks [hence there is no such thing as a "653 tube", the 653 tube set was a collection of different tubes]

One question I still have, and relates to whether 531 Pro has 753 stays or not, is that there appears to be no difference between 531 Pro and 653 in the above definitions. So either 531 Pro had 531 stays (like 531 SL before it), or the move to 653 was just a marketing thing to change the name. Builders would have had some freedom to swap out different tubes, and I guess some may have used 531 stays when building a 531 Pro frameset, especially if they were not comfortable silver soldering 753 tubing?

easyup

I rescued a custom Ian Laing 753r frame that had fork and frame misalignment (but no visible damage) to the point it could not be ridden. I tried to cold set the fork but is would pop back to the starting point as soon as I pedaled a few feet. Took it to Andy Gilmour (local frame builder) who said he can cold set it straight. He used a Marchetti-Lange frame alignment table and a massive cast iron custom fork table to repair and he reset the dropout to 130 from 126mm for $80! I now have 1400km on the bike and it is one of my favorite rides. As a retired design engineer I can tell you many a craftsman has greatly modified my designs for the better.

satanas

drlodge wrote:

531SL - Special lightweight (SL) tubeset, comprising 531 main tubes drawn thinner than standard 531, and stiff 531 rear stays [hence no 753 in that]

531 Professional - Superseded 531SL, for road racing and time trials. Comprises 531 lightweight main tubes and 753R rear stays. Early versions used 753T rear stays [as I said above]

653 - Was a mixed tubeset which superseded 531 Profesional and combined tubings of different steels; made up of 753 rear stays with 531 light weight main tubes and 531 forks [hence there is no such thing as a "653 tube", the 653 tube set was a collection of different tubes]

As I understand things:
531SL = just like regular 531 but thinner

531 Pro = basically the same as 531 SL with a new sticker. There was never any mention of non-531 tubes in the 1980s, and given that Reynolds has changed hands in the meantime it would be interesting to know just where the "information" you have posted came from. Note also that 531 Pro used the same double-taper 0.5mm seat stays as 531C, and that IIRC 753 seatstays were NOT double taper.

653 = 3 different modulus steels (different heat treatment of various tubes), as noted above; there were indeed 653 tubes - these were the main tubes, with a modulus of 925 N/mm^2. Please see Tony Oliver's book "Touring Bikes: a Practical Guide" and pp.157-158 especially for notes on relative tubing properties. Note that 531SL and 531 Pro were already obsolete when the book was published and thus do not appear. I would be very surprised if TO had things wrong; he was a physicist before he built frames and probably understood things much more completely than almost everyone else.

Also: Wikipedia, whilst extremely handy, is by no means whatsoever a definitive source. It is still banned from being cited in essays by my local university, and I can attest that much of what was recently on the XC skiing general page was horribly outdated, inaccurate and incomplete. :roll:

clogg

I'm trying to figure out what shifters would fit my current setup but am a bit confused with the list above at the moment I am running my old PDM Concorde with.
7 speed (freewheel) with shimano sora shifters along with a Dura Ace 7400 rear mech. I want to replace the shifters. Am I right in thinking that campag 10 speed would work.

drlodge

Yes, that's exactly what I''ve done.

The shimano rear sprocket spacing is 5mm for 7 speed, and 4.8 mm for 8 speed (near enough the same), hence 8 speed Shimano Sora works on a 7 speed cassette. But so do Campag 10 speed shifters, since the cable pull ratio is the same (4.79mm). I replaced Shimano Sora 8 sp shifters for Campag 10 speed Veloce shifters, and it works a treat.

drlodge

satanas wrote:

drlodge wrote:

531SL - Special lightweight (SL) tubeset, comprising 531 main tubes drawn thinner than standard 531, and stiff 531 rear stays [hence no 753 in that]

531 Professional - Superseded 531SL, for road racing and time trials. Comprises 531 lightweight main tubes and 753R rear stays. Early versions used 753T rear stays [as I said above]

653 - Was a mixed tubeset which superseded 531 Profesional and combined tubings of different steels; made up of 753 rear stays with 531 light weight main tubes and 531 forks [hence there is no such thing as a "653 tube", the 653 tube set was a collection of different tubes]

As I understand things:
531SL = just like regular 531 but thinner

531 Pro = basically the same as 531 SL with a new sticker. There was never any mention of non-531 tubes in the 1980s, and given that Reynolds has changed hands in the meantime it would be interesting to know just where the "information" you have posted came from. Note also that 531 Pro used the same double-taper 0.5mm seat stays as 531C, and that IIRC 753 seatstays were NOT double taper.

653 = 3 different modulus steels (different heat treatment of various tubes), as noted above; there were indeed 653 tubes - these were the main tubes, with a modulus of 925 N/mm^2. Please see Tony Oliver's book "Touring Bikes: a Practical Guide" and pp.157-158 especially for notes on relative tubing properties. Note that 531SL and 531 Pro were already obsolete when the book was published and thus do not appear. I would be very surprised if TO had things wrong; he was a physicist before he built frames and probably understood things much more completely than almost everyone else.

Also: Wikipedia, whilst extremely handy, is by no means whatsoever a definitive source. It is still banned from being cited in essays by my local university, and I can attest that much of what was recently on the XC skiing general page was horribly outdated, inaccurate and incomplete. :roll:

The guy I got the info from is Terry Bill who worked at Reynolds, since, well forever. I dug out his last email to me where he clarifies the make up of the tube sets:

"Thinking and checking there was a mistake in my email [see earlier email below]
531SL was ALL 531 tubes This was changed to 753T rear stays for 531P, later 753R stays This was them changed to 725 for 653

In the 753 range there was a 753T, very light for track use and 753R for road racing. The early 531P sets with 753 had the "T" tubes but were found to be a little thin, when riders were big or the frame was for a rough road use. This was changed to the "R" stays, and the 725 were the equivalent of these.

The top tube was .7/.5/.7, seat tube .7/.5 (which required a bigger than standard 27.2 seat pillar) down tube .8/.5/.8
With regards the steerer, the standard set came with a NON butted steerer, to save weight, but some builders did not like this and changed to a standard 1.6/2.3 butted steerer.

On forks, the one recommended was the large oval 27.5 x 20 with a 1.0/0.6 butted profile in 531. If you have the large oval then it would be this, as we did not introduce thicker until much later. If your fork is 29 x 16 oval then this was designed as a touring fork at 1.2/0.9 thickness."

And an earlier email gives his response regarding the 653 tube set that I asked about - some of this is corrected in the later email above:

"This set [653] NOT being a specific material, but a concept tube set had many marketing name changes.

As a matter of interest the original 531SL came about after a discussion with Eddy Mercks. He had ridden the Paris - Roubaix race and found his 753 frame very stiff, and lots of vibrations. His suggestion was a light 531 frame with a stiff rear triangle. We came up with 531SL and marketed it.

The situation as far as I can remember is

1st
531SL - 1978/1981 531 main tubes, 753 rear stays [corrected above]
2nd
531 Professional - 1981/1988 - 531 main tubes, 753 rear stays However some of the later sets could have 725 rear stays.
In 1981 the whole of the range was re marketed with new design decals.

3rd
653 -1986 / 1995 - the main tubes were 531 and the rear stays 725.

Although your frame was built in 1987, it could be the last of the 531P or the first of the 653. The problem is that small builders have stocks of tube sets and use them over a period of time. I heard last year of a UK builder with 653 sets still in stock."

And to confirm that 531 Pro has 753 stays, here's a photo of my frame. The seat stays look single tapered to me

satanas

drlodge wrote:

The guy I got the info from is Terry Bill who worked at Reynolds, since, well forever.

Interesting! Seems like there's some contradictory info out there, but one must assume the guy you've been in communication with knows his stuff. Maybe my 531 pro frame is better than I thought! It does have double tapered seatstays though, so I'm not sure how that matches up with everything else.

clogg wrote:

I'm trying to figure out what shifters would fit my current setup but am a bit confused with the list above at the moment I am running my old PDM Concorde with.
7 speed (freewheel) with shimano sora shifters along with a Dura Ace 7400 rear mech. I want to replace the shifters. Am I right in thinking that campag 10 speed would work.

Note that Dura-Ace 740x rear mechs have a different cable pull from all other Shimano derailleurs. You can use any Shimano 9 speed shifter with an 8 speed spaced cassette with this mech and it will work perfectly. In practice, 7 speed cassette spacing is close enough to 8 speed that it shouldn't matter. Campag 10 speed shifters would work with any normal Shimano road derailleur (i.e., not 740x!) with an 8 speed (or 7 speed) cassette. Usually n-2 works when combining Campag shifters plus Shimano rear derailleurs and cassettes, but seeing as you have DA 740x I'd expect you'd need n-3, so 11 speed Campag shifters should do the job. If it was me, I'd sell the rear mech and get a more normal one as it will make your life easier, plus anyone who needs one of those things now will quite possibly be prepared to pay more than the replacement would cost you.

drlodge

satanas wrote:

drlodge wrote:

The guy I got the info from is Terry Bill who worked at Reynolds, since, well forever.

Interesting! Seems like there's some contradictory info out there, but one must assume the guy you've been in communication with knows his stuff. Maybe my 531 pro frame is better than I thought! It does have double tapered seatstays though, so I'm not sure how that matches up with everything else.

There is a LOT of contradictory stuff out there, which is why I went to Reynolds to clarify. Add to that, that builders may not use the "official" tube set but swap out some tubes - I reckon some builders would have used 531 stays on a "531 Pro" frame if there were not totally comfortable silver soldering 753 stays.

clogg wrote:

I'm trying to figure out what shifters would fit my current setup but am a bit confused with the list above at the moment I am running my old PDM Concorde with.
7 speed (freewheel) with shimano sora shifters along with a Dura Ace 7400 rear mech. I want to replace the shifters. Am I right in thinking that campag 10 speed would work.

Note that Dura-Ace 740x rear mechs have a different cable pull from all other Shimano derailleurs. You can use any Shimano 9 speed shifter with an 8 speed spaced cassette with this mech and it will work perfectly. In practice, 7 speed cassette spacing is close enough to 8 speed that it shouldn't matter. Campag 10 speed shifters would work with any normal Shimano road derailleur (i.e., not 740x!) with an 8 speed (or 7 speed) cassette. Usually n-2 works when combining Campag shifters plus Shimano rear derailleurs and cassettes, but seeing as you have DA 740x I'd expect you'd need n-3, so 11 speed Campag shifters should do the job. If it was me, I'd sell the rear mech and get a more normal one as it will make your life easier, plus anyone who needs one of those things now will quite possibly be prepared to pay more than the replacement would cost you.

Thanks for spotting! I recall something about a particular Dura-Ace RD being different to the rest, but didn't know it was the 740x series. Which makes me think, what Dura Ace RD do I have fitted...?

clogg

thanks for the reply it was the reference to Dura Ace rear mechs that was confusing me. I have a silver 6500 ultegra mech so I think I will use that instead and it won't look out of place.

satanas

^ The 6500 should be fine with Campag 10 levers and a Shimano 7/8 speed cassette.

Re 7400 series rear mechs (and shifters): First was 7400 = 6 speed, then IIRC 7401 revised the top pivot slightly to reduce spring breakage, then 7402 = 7 speed, then finally 7403 = 8 speed. 7403 will work with 7 & 6 speed, but the other way around will be more problematic. After they designed the original indexed Dura-Ace 7400, Shimano came out with indexed 600, and these had different cable travel, probably so people couldn't mix and match with DA and save money IMO.

Things stayed like this for some time, and *all* other Shimano rear derailleurs (apart from DynaSys) used the 600 cable travel. In 1997, DA 7700 (9 speed) came out, at which point DA switched to using the same cable travel as non-DA, and everything has been compatible since then, again with the exception of DynaSys. With DynaSys (10 speed MTB) Shimano increased the cable travel, presumably to make fine adjustment easier, and so Shimano 10 speed MTB rear mechs and shifters are not compatible with anything else Shimano. Simple innit?

west green

Great thread, have saved a copy for when I get round to creating my Shimergo set up. By the way - I have a Dave Marsh 653, and the forks have a 653 sticker - but according to above are they really 531 forks? The bike is much lighter then my 531DB and about on par with my Reynolds 853

satanas

The 653 fork sticker means that it's made out of what Reynolds in their wisdom decided to call a 653 tubeset. It seems clear that 653 forks are the same metal and heat treatment as 531, but most likely if Reynolds supplied 531 stickers for them, people would feel they'd been ripped off; I suspect keeping the stickers consistent for the frame and forks saved Reynolds a lot of aggravation and unnecessary explanation.

I'd expect the frame to be lighter than vanilla 531 as many or all of the tubes would be thinner; different steels all have the same density, so less metal = less weight.

drlodge

My guess is that 653 forks are the same as my 531 Pro forks, so probably a bit lighter than vanilla 531. Same goes for the main tubes - same 531 material but thinner walls..

west green

Cheers, certainly feels different weight wise, that would explain it

bretonbikes

I had my 653 frame built up by Bob Jackson 22 years ago and did quite a bit of research at the time. I wanted a lightweight tourer specifically for mountain climbing.
From both review and from BJ I was told that 653 was a replacement for 531pro - a set made from 531 drawn to 753 gauges. As such the 531pro frame would feel identical to a 753 and be as light but for lower cost (and could be built by brazing rather than silver solder) - however as the UTS of 531 was considerably lower than 753 there were frame failures hence the 'intermediate' 653.
The 653 frameset was therefore made of 531 forks, main tubes from steel with 1/2 the heat-treatment of 753 and thus intermediate UTS (sorry can't remember the numbers) and fully 753 stays - all to 753 gauges.
My frame was built up with soft angles (72) a large fork offset for stability coming down and a very 'tight' rear for going up;-) Bare 32mm clearances.
It's gorgeous. Very springy and comfortable and because it was built by someone who knew how to built a touring bike (and it was silver soldered as with all BJ's) it is immensely stable. Even loaded with full camping loads and front and rear panniers it'll cope just fine, though sometimes shaking its head to show it's not entirely happy though never developing beyond that.
The limit was when I started to tow baby trailers when similarly loaded - it would 'ghost change' in extremis as the frame really isn't stiff enough for this abuse - so I had a near identical frame built up in tandem weight 531 which is like riding a garden gate in comparison.
So lovely bike - if you don't get silly it'll cope with anything and incredibly comfortable to ride. Keep it:-)