Racing as a team

joey54321

Just a quick question,

How many 'traditional clubs' enter a race with a team mentality? or with tactics arranged in advance? or have specific team training sessions/days? etc...


I have only ever dabbled in racing between other riding and timetrials but have always thought I would stick with it more if there was more of a team element (although maybe its because I do just dabble that I don't notice the team elements of the club I am in). Just wanted to know what other peoples experience is?

DavidJB

There's zero tactics in 3/4 races team or no team. Clubs as in 'Town Road Club' never really use tactics if ever.

imposter2.0

No tactics as such - but if you have a clubmate up the road, it's probably not good form to sit on the front and drag the bunch up to them...

joey54321

So why aren't tactics employed? think how effective a 'team' could be at 2/3/4 level with some thought to tactics.


Tbh, I was asking more about the training side of it. I do the club runs but I feel there is a missed opportunity to do more specific race training as a 'tea,'. I used to row and I liked the team mentality even though we weren't very good and I kind of miss this in cycling. With my levels of fitness/motivation/talent/time to train and any other excuse you want I'm never going to get to the level where teams/tactics are currently established. So thought i would do it the other way and bring teams/tactics to my level?

PhunkyPhil

Why would you want to pay and enter a race and be told what to do by somebody who thinks they are better than you???

Cycling in what ever form should be fun. Remember only one person can win and only a certain number get points so if you work you ass off all race just to sit up at the end like a pro domestique you will never progress up rankings.

joey54321

Exactly, only one person can win so wouldn't you rather it was a teammate?

imposter2.0

joey54321 wrote:

Exactly, only one person can win so wouldn't you rather it was a teammate?

I would rather it was me.

Some club riders (especially if there are two or three in the event) might have a chat about sending one up the road, or something - but it only works if that rider is strong enough to stay away - and there's not much you or anyone can do to control an amateur bunch anyway. In amateur racing, the strongest riders usually place, regardless of tactics.

maryka

I think tactics can work but you require a smallish group of guys (or girls) who know each other reasonably well, trust and like each other, and are about the same ability. If they ride and race together often and agree going into races how they will try to race it and agree that over the course of the season everyone will get their chance to be fully supported by the team and have their moment to shine, then it can work very well. But one selfish rider, or an inconsistent race schedule, or a huge disparity in ability of the team members will mess it up.

I agree that everyone pays their entry and therefore has some reason to want to race how they like. But only one person can win and it's probably not going to be you. In fact I would say that your chances of a win are greatly increased if you can ride like a real team and help your teammates win over the course of the season -- they are more likely to repay you by giving you a real hand when it's your turn.

Pretty unusual for that to happen though. E.g. recent conversation on my club forum:

A: We have a lot of guys signed up to race this 3/4 race, personally I think we should all help B (strong rider but with no sprint) get the points he needs to get out of 4th cat. [all other riders from the club in the race are 3rd cat]
C: [ignoring A's post] Ooh ooh D!!!! (sprinter type). This course has your name written all over it!
F**k yeah! I'm there to win it, man!

Cue B wondering why he's even bothered to join a club. And this is a club that's had a long running "how can we race as a team this year" thread and even a private part of the forum for racing members only. :roll:

TakeTurns

You'd need a very small, tight bunch of guys which have flexible lives for it to work out as there is quite a bit of commitment involved.

xixang

our team tactics are basically if a team member gets into a break don't assist with chasing. Other than that its everyone for themselves. I've seen other clubs (2 in particular) who send one rider up the road, bunch chases and catches, next one attacks and so it goes on until either one gets away in a small group or they are all too exhausted for the bunch sprint

ozzzyosborn206

Being from Guernsey most of the races we do are over here and not for anything other than pride and we all race for ourselves, we also all train together. But when we race in England we try to race with the mentality of not caring who wins/does well aslong as it is a Guernsey rider. We have been fairly successful in the past as like others have said everyone else races for themselves and so a few guys riding for one person can get the desired result.

Just things like taking it in turn to follow breaks saves alot of energy as opposed to trying to follow everything. The best result we have had due to riding as a team was at the 2011 Southern RR champs, James McLaughlin was there riding for pendragon and probably the strongest rider there(he is from Guernsey). He missed the break that had riders from most other teams and looked like it was going to stick. We stuck 4 of us on the front rode the break down to about 15 seconds where James bridged the gap attacked the break got away with Richard Tanguy of Jersey and then went on to win it. Sure it wasn't me on the podium but the sense of achievement of knowing that James wouldn't have won had we not ridden and that the race was effectively over having missed the break.

As is the norm when we race away the prize money goes into a pot towards a few beers/post race meal afterwards. If you ride for your team mate in one race it is normal to expect them to ride for you in another, that way you are both more likely to get results that way.

oldhairylegs

Plenty of evidence of team work in races round these parts.

Most of the Surrey League 2/3 and 3rd Cat races are dominated by two or three big clubs who generally work very well together as a team and often stitch races up by sending riders up the road then chasing down or disrupting riders who try to bridge across.

It does make it hard for small clubs like mine who might only have a couple of guys racing, but it's very satisfying when we do get somebody in the mix at the end. Trying to get riders from the other small clubs to all work together is like trying to herd cats though!

As an aside, one of my favourite comedy moments this year was at the end of a race at Dunsfold, when guys from one of the big outfits started having a proper scrap with each other because some team mates had apparently chased down a break that had one of their own riders in it!

alihisgreat

Last time I raced at MK two guys from another club tried the whole teamwork thing and did a leadout at the end... So I just jumped on their wheel and took the win

Its good form to not chase clubmates who are up the road (unless you can get away from the bunch too) but apart from that unless someone pays my entry for me I'm riding for myself!

markos1963

I think this is one of the problems with lower level racing. There is nothing in it for riders to help their team mates out as the whole emphasis is to gain points to move to the next level. Lots of riders seem to race just happy to place 15th. Would be nice if there was a system where a winner might be allowed to share his points with his race team much in the same way the pro's share their race money. That way you might get teams using proper race attics to influence a race.

ozzzyosborn206

markos1963 wrote:

I think this is one of the problems with lower level racing. There is nothing in it for riders to help their team mates out as the whole emphasis is to gain points to move to the next level. Lots of riders seem to race just happy to place 15th. Would be nice if there was a system where a winner might be allowed to share his points with his race team much in the same way the pro's share their race money. That way you might get teams using proper race attics to influence a race.

why not share the prize money, and agree that everyone gets their chance to be team leader for the day? If you race often enough it is pretty easy to get to at least 2nd cat, which IMO is the best cat to be as it means you can ride the most races

mamba80

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

why not share the prize money, and agree that everyone gets their chance to be team leader for the day? If you race often enough it is pretty easy to get to at least 2nd cat, which IMO is the best cat to be as it means you can ride the most races

that must be a regional thing then, in the s/w being a 2nd cat restricts what you can enter - most RR are 3/4 with a few 2/3/4, alot of the e123 -nat B - races get cancelled due to lack of entries or their small field sizes are subsidised by a full 3/4 entry, 3rds are reluctant to try their luck against e12's if there is a 3/4 option.
In cct racing there is always a 3/4, the 2nds take their chances with Marcin

the only race a 3rd can't do is a nat A and any/most 2nd cat's wont do well in that std anyhow.

The whole points system is only relevant to an aspiring young rider, for most hobby racers, its meaningless and the emphasis should be on acquiring skill not pts.

sharing prize money? there is no way im going give up my chance of fame and glory for a 4 way split of £50

allaboutadam

Our club race as a team whenever we can (if there are enough of us) and I can definitely say it adds to the experience.

We usually have a rough plan agreed in advance and always try to do the standard stuff like disrupting the chase behind a team-mate or pulling back moves with none of us in.
Actually we got a bit of abuse from the competition this year for controlling some crits out our way but I see it as an additional aspect to racing that just adds to it. I find it really keeps me interested when my form dips too, as I can still help the team out.

xixang

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

why not share the prize money, and agree that everyone gets their chance to be team leader for the day? If you race often enough it is pretty easy to get to at least 2nd cat, which IMO is the best cat to be as it means you can ride the most races

it would be nice to have prize money available to split. local crit series doesn't have prizes on the night. run as a league and prizes for top 3 overall at end of year. I think local RR league runs the same (but not sure). Most races here are run by same org so few opportunities for cash prizes, but that's not why we race as amateurs. another less local league does have prizes down to 6th i think but unfortunately clashes with local tt league.