Custom built wheel set - which hubs, rims, etc.?

Seweryn

Hi Guys,

After reading some threads while considering a new wheel set, I see the Zondas represents very good quality in their price range and looks like a good choice.

However, would you be able to order a custom built set of wheels for very same money (say up to Zondas value) that are as durable, light and are high quality wheels with good, serviceable hubs, or maybe you could do better? After spending hours researching, I am still not any wiser than before due to lack of experience . Please note that I am not a heavy rider at about 66kg on an average day, so the spoke count can be kept low, so to help with the lower wheel weight.

Just to let you know, my current wheels are Mavic Ksyrium Equipe that I use all the time since I got the bike and have never had any trouble with them. Their mileage is approximately 30k km at this stage and they are still true and running good. They needed just re-touching maybe once, but tiny bit (see my low weight, which may be one of the reasons). So I would like to keep the durability, but also reduce the rotational weight and bring more life onto the bike. How would you spend your money and why?

Any comments are much appreciated.

trek_dan

At 66kg your choice if you go handbuilt will be huge. Could probably get something lighter and stiffer for the same price or less. Talk to a wheelbuilder.

Wooliferkins

Have a chat with the nice guys at Strada They'll discuss your needs and if factory wheels will fill your needs they'll tell you if not they'll build you a lush set of hoops

Seweryn

Wooliferkins wrote:

Have a chat with the nice guys at Strada They'll discuss your needs and if factory wheels will fill your needs they'll tell you if not they'll build you a lush set of hoops

Thank you, I will drop them an email.

Seweryn

OK, after reading a lot and then more and more and after some correspondence with wheel builders I believe the custom build option is the way to go.

Now back to the components. I would like a set with 23mm rims, so I believe a pair of Shimano Dura Ace hubs + the Archetype rims (I guess 24/28 spoke count?) should do the job just right. However, the Shimano DA hubs are crazy money, so I am looking for something more sensible and would welcome any comments. The Campagnolo hubs are limited to just one spoke drilling number, same as Ultegra or 105. Regarding all other hubs, like Novatec, Miche, etc., any feedback will be appreciated, as I am not familiar with them as to how reliable and easy to service they are. What I am after is a quality product with good life span. I estimated that the wheels are on the road about 600 hours per annum.

ugo.santalucia

Seweryn wrote:

OK, after reading a lot and then more and more and after some correspondence with wheel builders I believe the custom build option is the way to go.

Now back to the components. I would like a set with 23mm rims, so I believe a pair of Shimano Dura Ace hubs + the Archetype rims (I guess 24/28 spoke count?) should do the job just right. However, the Shimano DA hubs are crazy money, so I am looking for something more sensible and would welcome any comments. The Campagnolo hubs are limited to just one spoke drilling number, same as Ultegra or 105. Regarding all other hubs, like Novatec, Miche, etc., any feedback will be appreciated, as I am not familiar with them as to how reliable and easy to service they are. What I am after is a quality product with good life span. I estimated that the wheels are on the road about 600 hours per annum.

I reckon Malcolm at the Cycleclinic has a few sets of Miche Primato in low hole counts (24/28 and 20/24) have a chat with him. Miche are good, they are not the lightest or the latest in terms of technology, but they are reliable stuff, easy to service and if kept lubricated, they should last for years.
Have a look at how they are made on my blog

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... i-rear-hub

Seweryn

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I reckon Malcolm at the Cycleclinic has a few sets of Miche Primato in low hole counts (24/28 and 20/24) have a chat with him. Miche are good, they are not the lightest or the latest in terms of technology, but they are reliable stuff, easy to service and if kept lubricated, they should last for years.
Have a look at how they are made on my blog

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... i-rear-hub

Thank you Ugo, that is a good read about these hubs. After some searching I can see they seem to have rather positive reviews online from users, which is good sign. I assume they can deal with bad weather.
Considering my weight, would you go for 24/28 or 20/24 spoke count, or maybe use different, equivalent rims?

ugo.santalucia

Seweryn wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I reckon Malcolm at the Cycleclinic has a few sets of Miche Primato in low hole counts (24/28 and 20/24) have a chat with him. Miche are good, they are not the lightest or the latest in terms of technology, but they are reliable stuff, easy to service and if kept lubricated, they should last for years.
Have a look at how they are made on my blog

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... i-rear-hub

Thank you Ugo, that is a good read about these hubs. After some searching I can see they seem to have rather positive reviews online from users, which is good sign. I assume they can deal with bad weather.
Considering my weight, would you go for 24/28 or 20/24 spoke count, or maybe use different, equivalent rims?

20/24.
They cope with bad weather... if it's a really big downpour, I would recommend a quick strip and regrease soon after the ride

cycleclinic

I put miche hubs on my winter winter and ride happily through flooded roads. They do not care about the wet (I do not strip and re grease these hubs as that is pointless with cartridge bearing hubs). As for not being very light they are not but neither are they heavy. Getting a bit short on 24/28H pairs (more ordered).

Given you are light 20F/24R wheels will work as well as 24F/28R. A rim like the Kinlin XR-300 or the archetype would be needed for very low spoke count though. With the kinlin's a wheelset of 1600g is possible.

Lighter wheels are possible too but lighter rims generally need more spokes to maintain lateral wheel stiffness so unless lighter hubs are used the wheels end up being around the same weight. I would ignore the weight of the hub as it make little to no difference to how wheel feels or performs. It is the weight of the tyres and tubes, rim tape, rim, nipple, and to a certain extend the spokes that are the things people feel when the bike is riden, not the weight of the hubs. Low weight hubs are for vanity reasons and weight weenie builds both are legitimate persuits I am guilty of both.

nick1c

I am going down the hand built route for the first time. Having read a large number of 'what wheels' posts I have decided on Archetype rims (32's as I weigh 90Kg), because they seem to be universally praised, laced with DT spokes to Hope hubs, because my LBS carries spares for them. It may well be that there are small cost or performance advantages to other hubs & spokes but I feel it is outweighed by the ability to get a wheel repaired at low cost & short notice. My current wheels are Shimano RS10's. I have broken 2 rear drive side spokes in the last 2 months & after 3 weeks am still waiting for Madison to supply spokes to the LBS so it can be repaired (to be fair delivery for the 1st repair took only a couple of days & they have been out of stock).

Seweryn

thecycleclinic wrote:

Given you are light 20F/24R wheels will work as well as 24F/28R. A rim like the Kinlin XR-300 or the archetype would be needed for very low spoke count though. With the kinlin's a wheelset of 1600g is possible.

Lighter wheels are possible too but lighter rims generally need more spokes to maintain lateral wheel stiffness so unless lighter hubs are used the wheels end up being around the same weight. I would ignore the weight of the hub as it make little to no difference to how wheel feels or performs. It is the weight of the tyres and tubes, rim tape, rim, nipple, and to a certain extend the spokes that are the things people feel when the bike is riden, not the weight of the hubs. Low weight hubs are for vanity reasons and weight weenie builds both are legitimate persuits I am guilty of both.

Thank you, I appreciate the comments.

I do not mind the hub weight being on the heavier side, however I would like the wheels to make the bike feel more lively and comfortable than my current set.

I was not sure about the low spoke count of 20/24, but I just checked my current wheels and they are actually 18/20 and they went out of true maybe twice since I own them and the mileage is about 35k km (with the rims on the way out now).
Would the Archetype be more comfortable and lively at the same time vs the XR-300? I understand the rotational mass issue.

Seweryn

nick1c wrote:

I am going down the hand built route for the first time. Having read a large number of 'what wheels' posts I have decided on Archetype rims (32's as I weigh 90Kg), because they seem to be universally praised, laced with DT spokes to Hope hubs, because my LBS carries spares for them. It may well be that there are small cost or performance advantages to other hubs & spokes but I feel it is outweighed by the ability to get a wheel repaired at low cost & short notice. My current wheels are Shimano RS10's. I have broken 2 rear drive side spokes in the last 2 months & after 3 weeks am still waiting for Madison to supply spokes to the LBS so it can be repaired (to be fair delivery for the 1st repair took only a couple of days & they have been out of stock).

The availability of spares is important. I can't afford waiting long for spares, as I use the bike 5 days per week commuting and just riding for pleasure. There are no shops or suppliers near my area, so I will probably order a couple of spokes from the builder. The bearings are usually available in any engineering shop, so no worries there.

cycleclinic

Sapim make spokes that a bit cheaper than DT Swiss and com in the same gauge. It make litle difference on the brand of spokes so long your prefered shop stock them.

Archetype rims are wide so 23mm tyres come up at 25mm so that make them more comfortable. The kinlin rims are narrower but some tyres like 23mm GP4000s/4seasons come up at 24.5mm so you get a good ride anyway.

Broken spokes on what wheels? 20F/24R is more spoke anyway so that helps. If you want peice of mind then a 24F/28R is very sensible and not heavy but by being picky who I build low spoke wheels for spoke failure has yet to happen. If you are the kind of rider who throws the bike from side to side when climbing under high power then go for a higher spoke count (if you do alot of climbing). If you do that then a lighter rim is suitable as well like the DT Swiss RR440 or the velocity A23. However proper spoke tension normally avoid wheels going out of true.

The XR-300 is the lighter, stiffer and a bit more aero than the archetype. The archetype is prettier and heavier by 15g per rim. It is also wider and one of the best rims in production past and present. I would say both rims would feel "lively" and as comfortable as each other as comfort depends on tyre width and pressure not the rim so much.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

I put miche hubs on my winter winter and ride happily through flooded roads. They do not care about the wet (I do not strip and re grease these hubs as that is pointless with cartridge bearing hubs).

That's not my point. Unlike other hubs with cartridge bearings, Miche use a steel axle, which needs to be kept greased, to avoid it to rust... if it does, then it swells and the bearings stick to it and everything becomes more difficult... also, most of the service to a rear hub is not for the bearings, but rather the freehub mechanism. If it's not clean and lubed, the spring will rust and dirt will jam the pawls and wear out the ratchet ring in no time.
With a bit of TLC after a wet ride I can extend the life of "hub consumables" by a factor of ten, give or take.
Some premium hubs have extra rubber seals (Record, Dura Ace, CK and Hope PRO 2) but basic hubs need a bit of TLC, which incidentally happens to be dead easy and often doesn't even involve removing the cassette

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... aintenance

Seweryn

Thank you Guys, I get the picture clearer every time.

I believe I will never need spares other than consumables like rims.

Another couple of things that I ask myself about the build:
- How is the free hub body sealed in the Miche hubs? In my current hub there is a rubber seal seating just behind the free hub body and seals it against the nylon bush.
- What is the difference between an 11 and a 10 speed hub - are the hubs the same with two different free hub bodies, i.e. is there an easy conversion allowed?
- Would you use the brass washers at the hub drillings in this hub?
- Would you use any grease (like anti size copper grease), especially if using light aluminium alloy nipples?
- Am I right saying that a 24/28 set with Sapim Laser spokes is lighter than a 20/24 set with Sapim Race spokes (or equivalent)? That just after a quick calculation.
- After surfing on the Sapim website, I found the Super Spoke. I understand it would be a fragile solution and not really recommended?

Thanks again.

ugo.santalucia

Seweryn wrote:

Thank you Guys, I get the picture clearer every time.

I believe I will never need spares other than consumables like rims.

Another couple of things that I ask myself about the build:
- How is the free hub body sealed in the Miche hubs? In my current hub there is a rubber seal seating just behind the free hub body and seals it against the nylon bush.
- What is the difference between an 11 and a 10 speed hub - are the hubs the same with two different free hub bodies, i.e. is there an easy conversion allowed?
- Would you use the brass washers at the hub drillings in this hub?
- Would you use any grease (like anti size copper grease), especially if using light aluminium alloy nipples?
- Am I right saying that a 24/28 set with Sapim Laser spokes is lighter than a 20/24 set with Sapim Race spokes (or equivalent)? That just after a quick calculation.
- After surfing on the Sapim website, I found the Super Spoke. I understand it would be a fragile solution and not really recommended?

Thanks again.

Some hubs can take the new 11 speed freehubs without modifications, other can't, it depends. Novatec can't, Miche has now 11 speed freehubs across the range.
The other questions are very subjective... some prompted by reading my blog, I guess... every builder is an individual and will operate differently... and that's a good thing, otherwise there would only be 32 spokes builds on Open PRO rims around.

Don't get over-informed, unless you want to build the wheels yourself... you run the risk of ending up thinking there is only one way of doing things correctly, which is the wrong mindset

Seweryn

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Seweryn wrote:

Some hubs can take the new 11 speed freehubs without modifications, other can't, it depends. Novatec can't, Miche has now 11 speed freehubs across the range.
The other questions are very subjective... some prompted by reading my blog, I guess... every builder is an individual and will operate differently... and that's a good thing, otherwise there would only be 32 spokes builds on Open PRO rims around.

Don't get over-informed, unless you want to build the wheels yourself... you run the risk of ending up thinking there is only one way of doing things correctly, which is the wrong mindset

Thanks Ugo. Yes, I had some read on your blog. It is interesting and informative 8) .

I just like knowing what solutions are there for the build, as I am generally a technically minded person. I service the bike myself and I am passionate about it. However, I think I would rather leave the build process to an experience wheel builder, as I understand it requires skills and equipment that I do not have.

Regarding the 11-speed hub, can I use it in a 10-speed Sram groupset and how is the freehub sealed against the hub flange in the Miche Primato model.

cycleclinic

Sorry sewveryn but your experinece is not mine of using these hubs. I have no issues with them when giving them no attenion I have run them for long enough and when it comes to bearing change time everything comes apart with ease I ride them in the rain too). Doing what Seweryn says will do no harm but I really can't be bothered on my own bikes and I still get no issues.

10 speed work on miche hubs as they come with a spacer needed to do that. The freehub bearing last long enough so the sealing present is good enough. My wife's all year round commutor did 8000 miles before the rear hub bearings needed changing. The front bearings are still smooth. I think that is good enough (the hub came apart with ease and I have given no attenion what so ever in between).

cycleclinic

Just got conformation my 24F/28R miche primato hub order is on it's way tommorrow, phew I am using may last pair tonight.

As for which build is lighter 24F/28R primato hubs on archetype's with laser spoke or 20F/24R primato hubs on archetype with Race spokes, the higher spoke count comes in 20g lighter.

Seweryn

Hi Guys,

Sorry for bringing this thread back to life and thank you for all the advice I received to date. Last December I accidentally (locally) bought a used set of old handbuilt wheels to get me going, as my old wheels were on their last legs. However, as I found out later, the wheels were far from perfect (thankfully, they were rather inexpensive), but I liked the idea of the serviceable hubs and decided to buy a second hand set of very same hubs and then sell the old set back and build a new set.
By the way, I asked a local bike mechanic to service the wheelset I bought, but I wasn't fully satisfied with the results (rear wheel still out of dish).

Anyway, I bought the 7700-series Shimano Dura Ace hubs. I got the front hub already. It is the 28h version and now awaiting the rear one, 32h, which I bought separately.
I should probably ask before, but - are these hubs any good? I know, they look very old-school classic with polished round shapes, but I am more interested in the reliability and engineering than the appearance . There is not much info on the older Shimano hubs on the net, but the newer DA hubs have good reviews. However the new hubs are very expensive.

I know, I originally planned a 24h fr / 28h rear build. Should I consider a different rim because of the fact that I will have hubs with 4 extra spokes on each wheel? I am not going to build them myself, however I will do a research if there is anyone locally to sort me out with this.

cycleclinic

Those hubs are kind of perfect. If you don't want them post them my way I will find use for them

Seweryn

thecycleclinic wrote:

Those hubs are kind of perfect. If you don't want them post them my way I will find use for them

I take they are not bad .

Seweryn

Some update Guys, and first of all, thank you for the help here ond "off-line", it is very much appreciated .

I have finally got all the bits for the buid and decided to give it a try myself for a number of reasons.
Started last night with the front and laced the rear wheel this morning. They are not fully finished and still need to be dished, trued and tensioned, but I already like them .













Can't wait for the first test ride. Hopefully next weekend or so. Will report.

ugo.santalucia

A talented photographer...

Seweryn

ugo.santalucia wrote:

A talented photographer...

I wish my wheelbuilding skills were half as bad :oops: , but will see how they ride soon. It is all getting more and more exciting 8) .

Thanks for the advise Ugo, it was very helpful .

ugo.santalucia

Did you clean the holes? Silver Archetypes have a lot of grit inside the holes (used in the polishing process) which can jam your nipples as you build up tension. If you haven't, panic not, but drop some oil inside the holes, to avoid that happening.

Also, spoke washers are nice, but you need to set them with a punch and a little hammer as the spokes are in tension

Seweryn

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Did you clean the holes? Silver Archetypes have a lot of grit inside the holes (used in the polishing process) which can jam your nipples as you build up tension. If you haven't, panic not, but drop some oil inside the holes, to avoid that happening.

Ups, I did not clean them :oops: , however I dropped good bit of thick chain oil into the holes before starting the build.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Also, spoke washers are nice, but you need to set them with a punch and a little hammer as the spokes are in tension

Yep, I realised that and used a little hammer to settle them down .

hypster

Blimey they look gorgeous! I could be tempted by a similar build myself...

cycleclinic

very nice. I like silver hubs and silver or grey rims.

Seweryn

thecycleclinic wrote:

very nice. I like silver hubs and silver or grey rims.

Thanks. They are going onto a black bike, but still should look just fine .

herzog

Glad to see you lined up the valve hole and the logo!