Very clever but......

The Rookie

http://www.laufforks.com/TheLaufTrailRacer.aspx

Fors: Light (for a suspension fork)
Cons: No damping (they even claim no friction where friction would have at least provided some damping!)
Can't see it being that torsioanlly rigid (so why the 15mm through axle!)
Short travel (60mm)
Heavier than a rigid

Seems to answer a question no-one was asking, and worst still had they thought about it wouldn't have asked anyway - discuss!

njee20

60mm is a hell of a lot more travel than a rigid fork, bear in mind quite a few XC 29ers only have 80mm forks anyway.

It's an interesting design, we all accept telescopic forks as best, so I applaud anyone trying anything different. I shalln't be buying though!

The Rookie

I agree that 60mm is a lot more than a rigid!

I also applaud the different approach, but would have thought that providing a damper (friction or better still hydraulic) was fairly fundamental.

Interestingly is is a very similar 'idea' to the rear axle location on a phase2 Range Rover which use twin trailing composite links that acted as an anti-roll bar in twist.

estampida

the control tech / lawwill leader fork was probably one of the best designs of the 1990's....

worked better than all the rivals and sort of got rid of hidden non standard internals (the girvin vector fork was another of these types of design) and easy servicing, its a pity that they did not get the support

looks like it will work nicely on small bump and could be on road race bikes if they see a lot of cobbles in a day, similar to how they would use steel / ti frames and forks

also old minis used a rubber suspension and it was perfect for road use so I see this as an interesting fork, that could solve some issues like putting telescopic forks on BSO's..... and then finding that they skimped on important stuff like quality gearing and brakes. Less moving parts means it will be cheaper to manufacture.

you should also have a look at some of the commuter bikes on sale this year as they have a re-vamped amp research F3/F4 fork design....

its application of the idea that really counts, and not just writing things off because they don't look like everyone else.

nicklouse

so how do you set it up?

how can you link a Mini suspension to this?

and yes a 15mm axel is needed to give it the Torsional stiffness.

The Rookie

Looks like no setup at all, WYSiWTG!

Nick i agree a 15mm will help torsional stiffness, but I still don't see it being anywhere stiff 'enough' although clearly the spring blade shape makes it much stiffer in twist and laterally than vertically, I'd still sceptical, however the complete absence of a damper seems the biggest issue unless they have developed a spring blade with a massive internal hysterisys and then forgotten to mention it!

nicklouse

The Rookie wrote:

Looks like no setup at all, WYSiWTG!

Nick i agree a 15mm will help torsional stiffness, but I still don't see it being anywhere stiff 'enough' although clearly the spring blade shape makes it much stiffer in twist and laterally than vertically, I'd still sceptical, however the complete absence of a damper seems the biggest issue unless they have developed a spring blade with a massive internal hysterisys and then forgotten to mention it!

the 15 will not help it IS the torsional stiffness. it is doing the job of the standard fork arch and axel.

it is definatly a race fork designed for the 65kg (or 70kg) racer (i have no idea on average weights) if I used it it would be straight into the max travel before even starting.
I am guessing that the springs are carbon and their orientation will actually cause some resistance rather than it being a fully undamped system. as all it needs to do is control the wheel weight and the two carriers.

dont know if you remember the carbon ring self damping rear suspension design?

The Rookie

The trouble is the axle and 2 uprights (as an assembly) can still twist to an extent - even with no reletaive twist between the uprights, a normal QR still creates a similar assembly although the QR axle and skewer aren't as stiff as a 15mm (obviously).

Ideally you have extra compression damping for heavier hits (landings) which you won't get with these although the spring rate is rising (they say).

Googled without success as well!

estampida

nicklouse wrote:

so how do you set it up?

how can you link a Mini suspension to this?

and yes a 15mm axel is needed to give it the Torsional stiffness.

well the springs will be in different weights, you buy the fork for your kerb weight, no real tuning, but its not there for all that high / low speed tuning, just removes square edge bumps, could almost be a flex stem........

minis have no conventional spring, just a mechanical rubber spring (massive o- ring) there is a damper but with so little travel the friction of the system controls wheel movement and the fact that the rear has no tie in to either radius arms shows that it can work, and even win rallys....... (the cars did use the estate / truck trumpets that were longer to give greater ground clearance)

and yeah you could see 15mm axles on road bikes soon, stiffer, stronger and has a greater "safety feel" when combined with disk brakes, how else will they get you to buy new equipment?

thats my point, this wont sell for 29ers but tdf 2014/15 you will see them on bikes.......

The Rookie

Trust me a mini without a damper is a horrid beast......

More like the 1/4 eliptics on a 'vette really!

estampida

The Rookie wrote:

Trust me a mini without a damper is a horrid beast......

More like the 1/4 eliptics on a 'vette really!

they tend to need a bit of lube now and then....

and any mention of leaf springs and they wont sell a single set..... :roll:

njee20

and yeah you could see 15mm axles on road bikes soon, stiffer, stronger and has a greater "safety feel" when combined with disk brakes, how else will they get you to buy new equipment?

Don't be too sure - roadies are incredibly averse to change, the polar opposite of MTBers. I think 15mm thru axles on a road bike would be massive overkill.

thats my point, this wont sell for 29ers but tdf 2014/15 you will see them on bikes.......

No chance, the UCI will end up banning it probably!

I can see a shorter travel version being used for Paris-Roubaix and stuff, manufacturers have played with 'suspension' over the years there, but I don't see any conventional road racing application whatsoever.

estampida

njee20 wrote:

I can see a shorter travel version being used for Paris-Roubaix and stuff, manufacturers have played with 'suspension' over the years there, but I don't see any conventional road racing application whatsoever.

thanks for proving my point

njee20

Your point that there's possibly a bit of a market in a couple of massively niche applications, but zero mass market appeal for road racing? Where did you make that point? :?

The Rookie

estampida wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

Trust me a mini without a damper is a horrid beast......

More like the 1/4 eliptics on a 'vette really!

they tend to need a bit of lube now and then....

EH?

nicklouse

estampida wrote:

minis have no conventional spring, just a mechanical rubber spring (massive o- ring) there is a damper but with so little travel the friction of the system controls wheel movement and the fact that the rear has no tie in to either radius arms shows that it can work, and even win rallys....... (the cars did use the estate / truck trumpets that were longer to give greater ground clearance)

I have read some crap in my time but you really have no idea about how the Mini suspension actually works. it sounds like you have just looked at some pictures and said what you saw and what you have made up.

The Rookie

I was waiting for you to step in on that!

Long term Mini owner/modifyer.......

estampida

well apart from my 1977 mini (1 year older than me)

and spent plenty of time working on automatic minis (when is the last time you saw one of them)

and as a note sticking an oil cooler and a inline janspeed on your mini does not make it modded.....

and you are welcome to insult me if you want, its a free country last time I looked, but if you don't understand how 1950's suspension works don't come crying to me.... little girl

estampida

estampida wrote:

well apart from my 1977 mini (1 year older than me)

and spent plenty of time working on automatic minis (when is the last time you saw one of them)

and as a note sticking an oil cooler and a inline janspeed on your mini does not make it modded.....

and you are welcome to insult me if you want, its a free country last time I looked, but if you don't understand how 1950's suspension works don't come crying to me.... little girl

and you know that girl.....

Chunkers1980

Dafuq girl?

The Rookie

Indeed not, mine was a classic modded, head, inlet, carb, cam (through the radiator grill), and exhaust using a 1275Gt manifold cut off it's inlet. Shagpile carpet throughout as well as a clubman dash and infill with leather trimmed panel and 8 speaker stereo install, all in 1985, all done by me. I also did the development work with JC garages for the last works pack for the classic Coopers before the BINI came out.

But what you wrote about the suspension is rubbish.

The friction in the system wasn't that high, you did need dampers, the biggest problem was the hysterisys in the cones, if you drove a car with the revised Moulton rubber cones with reduced hysterisys (so more like a steel spring) the ride quality was much much better.

As for 'the rear has no tie in to the rear radius arms', well apart from making no sense, it's not surprising as they had trailing arms and no radius arm at all to tie in to anything.

jairaj

sorry to bring this thread back on to topic. ;-)

I'm not convinced that fork is any good. It looks like its totally un-damped? So will it not just bounce up and down like a pogo stick similar to my old RST fork?

One of the big improvements I noticed when I swapped the RST to a rigid fork was the extra confidence I had in the front end when it stopped pogo-ing about. The front end was much more predictable and I actually enjoyed riding MTBs more after I got my rigid fork.

If this new fork is going to behave similar to the RST I can't see it being popular.

njee20

It won't be popular because it's weird, but I reckon the damping will be pretty unobjectionable. It doesn't have adjustable damping, rather than no damping!

The Rookie

But does it have enough damping, there is no balance of compression and rebound either.