Police decide not to prosecute - options?

steve6690

bails87 wrote:

steve6690 wrote:

I take it he received a caution then ?

Nope. Nothing. If he does it again he might get a caution.

patrickf wrote:

I remember the footage well. Absolutely shocking response. Turn it around and I guarantee they'd have done something. Too cynical? Perhaps. Still, how can they excuse assault like that? Police officers don't take too kindly to that sort of assault on them, so why do they think it's acceptable with other members of te public?

I know. Pretty sure if anyone did that to a PC then they'd be in a spot of bother.

This seems odd. If he wasn't cautioned but was required to write a letter of apology, this suggests that a Community Resolution was the outcome. This would need your consent. No consent...then it's a caution or off to court.

steve6690

bails87 wrote:

Ha, I was told by the 'desk sergeant' (actually a G4S/Serco jumped up security guard) at Solihull police station "it doesn't matter that you've just been the victim of a hit and run, if you're not seriously injured then the driver has done nothing wrong. Oh, and you're the second cyclist who's been in this week saying the same thing." He refused to go and check with a real officer, so WMP let another one slip through the net :roll:

He would be a front counter clerk. If that's what he told you then he is wrong. Any injury makes it reportable, not just a serious injury. Try ringing West Mids switchboard and asking to speak to the duty Inspector for the area this occurred on.

steve6690

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

I had a close pass by a bus which I then overtook in the queue at the next lights. Shortly after, as I'm reaching cruising speed, the bus comes past again this time even closer. In fear I shout & hammer on the side of the bus for more room, instead the bus brakes & pulls into the kerb. I manage to escape up onto the pavement & avoid the bus. I pull off the kerb in front of the bus to stop it & I get the registration number, while I'm doing that a witness from a car following comes forward and passes on her details.

The Police have now viewed the recording of the CCTV from the bus and a woman had missed her stop & rang the bell, the bus driver pulled in to let her off. The CCTV shows both passes, my hammering on the side of the bus, the bus continuing to pull in & my escape onto the pavement.

In the Police officers opinion, "nothing to see here, move along".

Strangely I feel unsatisfied with that outcome, do I have any formal rights to a 'second opinion', would writing to the Chief Constable and the Police & Crime Commissioner be worth it or do I have to suck it up?

I dealt with a similar incident a couple of months ago. Four cyclists riding in a line. Driver of a 4x4 towing a caravan decides to overtake but it wasn't a good location. Halfway past the group he encounters a camper van coming the other way. He is forced back to the nearside and side-swipes one of the cyclists knocking him up the kerb. Cyclist suffers a damaged shoulder and bruising. 4x4 driver interviewed at scene, reported for summons for Due Care. The final outcome was he was offered the opportunity to go on a Driver Improvement Course instead of going to court.
This seems very similar to your incident so I'm surprised at the difference in outcome.
By the way, having had a bus pass me "closely" I wouldn't filter in front of it at traffic lights thereby forcing it to overtake me again.

bails87

steve6690 wrote:

bails87 wrote:

steve6690 wrote:

I take it he received a caution then ?

Nope. Nothing. If he does it again he might get a caution.

patrickf wrote:

I remember the footage well. Absolutely shocking response. Turn it around and I guarantee they'd have done something. Too cynical? Perhaps. Still, how can they excuse assault like that? Police officers don't take too kindly to that sort of assault on them, so why do they think it's acceptable with other members of te public?

I know. Pretty sure if anyone did that to a PC then they'd be in a spot of bother.

This seems odd. If he wasn't cautioned but was required to write a letter of apology, this suggests that a Community Resolution was the outcome. This would need your consent. No consent...then it's a caution or off to court.

At the time I was told "we won't do any more than a 'local resolution' because the incident wasn't serious and it would cost lots of money which we don't want to spend. So sign this statement I've written that says you're accepting the letter of apology".

cuttsmeister

although it appears the driver was at fault, remember to get a successful prosecution at court it must be proved beyond all reasonable doubt that his driving was careless/dangerous. just the fact that he was trying to pull in to let a passenger off could in itself be enough to introduce that element of doubt. He had a genuine reason to pull in. he would probably get off at court. police/cps will only run with cases they stand a good chance of winning and this one does not fall into that category- does n't mean the driving was in the right it just means can't prove he was guilty of an offence.

bails87

Err, you're not allowed to run people over. Even if you're trying to drop off a passenger!

Smiler1968

cuttsmeister wrote:

although it appears the driver was at fault, remember to get a successful prosecution at court it must be proved beyond all reasonable doubt that his driving was careless/dangerous. just the fact that he was trying to pull in to let a passenger off could in itself be enough to introduce that element of doubt. He had a genuine reason to pull in. he would probably get off at court. police/cps will only run with cases they stand a good chance of winning and this one does not fall into that category- does n't mean the driving was in the right it just means can't prove he was guilty of an offence.

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that the driver intended to run the cyclist off the road, so the fact that they were pulling over to let a passenger off is neither here nor there. It certainly isn't a defence and does not introduce any element of doubt. If, as the OP has stated, there is a witness and there is CCTV is see no reason why a prosecution would not be successful. In order to prove due care you must show the driving standard fell below that expected of a careful and competent driver. I would suggest that pulling over and forcing a cyclist to mount the kerb to avoid being crushed might just fit the bill.

pbkclements

Phew, have to say I'd let it go,

doesn't sound like the bus driver was malicious, simply careless. No excuse I know, but if you come out of this situation without very serious injury, then pick yourself up, live to cycle another day & thank your lucky stars. The driver presumably has been grilled by the police & hopefully will be more careful in future. It's a very crowded little spot we all live in & until the planners/authorities really get there act together, you, I & the rest of the regular cycling community need to get on with it, best we can & do out little bit to change the layout of our roads & cycle lanes.

Pete

jacknorell

I find it quite unlikely that we'll get an improvement in the attitudes of drivers, the police, and the CPS unless we actually fight our corner.

When we're endangered, there's good reason to report it and press for legal action against the driver.

If we roll over, we accept the horrendous driving standards, and there's no overt issue to act on for the policy makers.

rustncogs

bails87 wrote:

steve6690 wrote:

bails87 wrote:

steve6690 wrote:

I take it he received a caution then ?

Nope. Nothing. If he does it again he might get a caution.

patrickf wrote:

I remember the footage well. Absolutely shocking response. Turn it around and I guarantee they'd have done something. Too cynical? Perhaps. Still, how can they excuse assault like that? Police officers don't take too kindly to that sort of assault on them, so why do they think it's acceptable with other members of te public?

I know. Pretty sure if anyone did that to a PC then they'd be in a spot of bother.

This seems odd. If he wasn't cautioned but was required to write a letter of apology, this suggests that a Community Resolution was the outcome. This would need your consent. No consent...then it's a caution or off to court.

At the time I was told "we won't do any more than a 'local resolution' because the incident wasn't serious and it would cost lots of money which we don't want to spend. So sign this statement I've written that says you're accepting the letter of apology".

That is truly shocking. Assault is assault whether it happens walking down the street or where ever. Tell me you didn't sign such a statement!?

rustncogs

As for the OP; complain to the bus company, then let it go.
If you start running to the police every time a driver does something stupid you'll be round there every other tea-time.
No-one got hurt. Non-incident. Makes your blood boil but happens all the time.

murvis1er

Have had this happen a few times. Bus overtakes as it approaches the bus stop then pulls over regardless, squeezing you off the road. Cars like to do it approaching petrol stations too. Perhaps it's so common that if no-one is injured Police think it's a waste of resources, but if nothing is done about it those drivers will continue not to think until they actually hurt someone.

dilemna

More evidence, as if there wasn't already enough, that the police are fecking useless. Their shocking indolence is only matched by their willingness to abuse their powers when it suits them. I would complain to some one. I doubt anything will happen though.

moarspeed

This is like.....

Those in the majority, won't support the minority because they know the majority don't support them and therefore the law and all rights are void.

Sounds almost identical to racism 100 years ago, doesn't it?
They'll be wearing white hoods and burning cyclists on crosses next......

Human nature i'm afraid, select out a minority and punish them until someone with more than half a brain makes you stop.

slowbike

dilemna wrote:

Their shocking indolence is only matched by their willingness to abuse their powers when it suits them.

Passed a policeman in town the other day - he seemed to be telling off a motorist for parking in a loading bay ... then proceeded back to his Police Van - also in the loading bay - complete with his bakery purchase ....
If I'd been on foot and caught more of the conversation I may have intervened (having first taken a picture on the mobile) .... but I wasn't and hadn't ... oh well - next time

rustncogs

I pulled onto a roundabout in front of a car the other week. It was stupid. I'd been driving for hours, it was hot and my concentration was going. I was so focused on traffic joining from the road to my right that I somehow didn't see the car coming round the roundabout and changing lanes. The lady had to brake and beeped her horn at me. Looked quite annoyed.
Surely I should expect the police shelve the burglaries, assaults, rapes and muggings in order to launch a full and thorough investigation into this heinous transgression. Oh no, wait... *NOTHING HAPPENED*.

MTFU

bendertherobot

This has been lead item on BBC Wales for a day, but has finally slipped down the list.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-sout ... s-23831543

Slow news day clearly.

mpie

rustncogs wrote:

I pulled onto a roundabout in front of a car the other week. It was stupid. I'd been driving for hours, it was hot and my concentration was going. I was so focused on traffic joining from the road to my right that I somehow didn't see the car coming round the roundabout and changing lanes. The lady had to brake and beeped her horn at me. Looked quite annoyed.
Surely I should expect the police shelve the burglaries, assaults, rapes and muggings in order to launch a full and thorough investigation into this heinous transgression. Oh no, wait... *NOTHING HAPPENED*.

MTFU

Consequences - that's the difference. If the timing of your careless moment had been slight different, all that would have happened is some bent metal. In the OP's case, the cyclist may have been dead. Hardly comparable?

rustncogs

mpie wrote:

Consequences - that's the difference. If the timing of your careless moment had been slight different, all that would have happened is some bent metal. In the OP's case, the cyclist may have been dead. Hardly comparable?

Pretty comparable, because in both cases all that actually happened was someone got a bit annoyed.
If there had been some bent metal there would have been an incident, an accident recorded, a case to answer, however minor.
I've dredged up a memory of a bus thundering past me through a narrow lane of cones at some roadworks in Aldgate years ago. I had to dive between traffic cones into the roadworks or I'd have gone under his wheels, his back wheel actually ran over the edge of a couple of the cones in front of me. I was physically shaking afterwards and I really regret not having the presence of mind to get the reg and report it to TFL or drag him out of his cab and smack seven shades out of him with a u-lock.

On an average week commuting in London though someone would try to kill me. You just learn to deal with it.

With no injury to person or property there's no case to answer. Move along now.

Anyway you lot have bigger problems to worry about when nothing much seems to happen to drivers who actually *KILL PEOPLE*:
http://www.bikeradar.com/commuting/news/article/lorry-driver-escapes-lifetime-ban-despite-involvement-in-two-fatalities-34828/

mpie

rustncogs wrote:

With no injury to person or property there's no case to answer. Move along now.

Anyway you lot have bigger problems to worry about when nothing much seems to happen to drivers who actually *KILL PEOPLE*:

You take an intersting position. There are two responses to managing risk: 'prevention' (reducing the risk) and 'cure' (mitigating the consequences). Depending on risk either (or both) may be effective. You seem to favour the latter in this case. Which is odd. How do you mitigate or compensate a victim who may be dead?

Overall I'd rather 'accidents' didn't happen than having prosecutions/compensation after the event.

philwi

mpie wrote:

Overall I'd rather 'accidents' didn't happen than having prosecutions/compensation after the event.

Yes, but the threat or fact of prosecution is likely to reduce the risk of injury caused by bad drivers.
And no one's saying it's "either-or": we need to deal with avoiding bad drivers as well as the bad driving itself.

In my experience the police are disinterested unless you have an injury. The Road Traffic Act and the CPS guidelines are clear that it's cause and not effect that's illegal, so the focus on actual damage caused is not in accordance with the law. The police are careful in what they write down for this reason - people like me would take them to court if they were careless enough to document anywhere I could get it this policy. Still, in practice they do not seriously pursue drivers who nearly injure you.

I feel that the police think that adult cyclists are stupid. We're richer and smarter than they are, so why do we insist on riding kid's toys instead of driving cars?

My approach is to politely demonstrate that it's easier to take killer drivers off the road than it is to deal with the consequences of their behaviour.

So please, don't let it go. In this specific case I'm not sure what more you can do.

graeme_s-2

bendertherobot wrote:

This has been lead item on BBC Wales for a day, but has finally slipped down the list.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-sout ... s-23831543

Slow news day clearly.

In June last year I was involved in a head on collision with a lorry (he swung out wide onto my side of the road, I tried to avoid him and took a glancing blow to my right thigh and shoulder and landed on a grass verge). West Midlands Police wouldn't even take a report of the accident from me as I had exchanged details with the driver at the scene and was not "seriously injured". I was bruised and bleeding, but did not require a trip to the doctors. The whole tone of the conversation was "why are you even wasting our time with this?".

It may not be written, but in practice it is the policy of West Midlands Police to ignore incidents involving cyclists if they can get away with it.

bails87

Graeme_S wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

This has been lead item on BBC Wales for a day, but has finally slipped down the list.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-sout ... s-23831543

Slow news day clearly.

In June last year I was involved in a head on collision with a lorry (he swung out wide onto my side of the road, I tried to avoid him and took a glancing blow to my right thigh and shoulder and landed on a grass verge). West Midlands Police wouldn't even take a report of the accident from me as I had exchanged details with the driver at the scene and was not "seriously injured". I was bruised and bleeding, but did not require a trip to the doctors. The whole tone of the conversation was "why are you even wasting our time with this?".

It may not be written, but in practice it is the policy of West Midlands Police to ignore incidents involving cyclists if they can get away with it.

+1 to that. I'm sure most people on here have heard my story of assault, as well as various bits of awful driving ignored by WMP.

Colinthecop

mpie wrote:

Consequences - that's the difference. If the timing of your careless moment had been slight different, all that would have happened is some bent metal. In the OP's case, the cyclist may have been dead. Hardly comparable?

But that involves a lot of What ifs, maybes, could haves....

The bus drivers driving wasn't too hot, the cyclist was switched on and avoided a collision.

As posted somewhere above, I used to cycle from Surrey into Brixton every day. Most days someone came close to killing me. Not deliberately, just from a lack of driver skill or lack of understanding UK driving laws. I'm sure every cyclist here has had plenty of near misses caused by bad driving. If the Police took every single one of these near misses as a crime, there would be no time to deal with anything else.

I know Manchester has been mentioned, not sure if it was the OP. There was a report in last weeks papers that they screen out 60% of reported crime. Not road traffic, actual recordable crime. People getting assaulted, burglaries etc. If they don't have the resources to deal with that, how can the justify reporting every allegation that someones driving wasn't too hot...? Not saying it's right. In an ideal world every allegation should be investigated, but this is not an ideal world.

Knowing how these things work, if it happened to me, I'd swear under my breath and carry on with my journey - rightly or wrongly.

slowbike

Colinthecop wrote:

If the Police took every single one of these near misses as a crime, there would be no time to deal with anything else.

They should at least record it - if nothing else it will show some stats on the reported near misses - but it could also be used to identify repeat "offenders" who could do with being shown the error of their ways.

If they (the police) are happy to arrest ppl for breach of the peace then perhaps they should think about taking road incidents more seriously.

Colinthecop

If the Police have carried out some enquiry - viewed CCTV, spoke to bus driver or whatever, it will be recorded somewhere to show they are dealing with an incident.

Albeit every force is different so I can't say how it will be recorded or what information is recorded.

dilemna

Graeme_S wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

This has been lead item on BBC Wales for a day, but has finally slipped down the list.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-sout ... s-23831543

Slow news day clearly.

In June last year I was involved in a head on collision with a lorry (he swung out wide onto my side of the road, I tried to avoid him and took a glancing blow to my right thigh and shoulder and landed on a grass verge). West Midlands Police wouldn't even take a report of the accident from me as I had exchanged details with the driver at the scene and was not "seriously injured". I was bruised and bleeding, but did not require a trip to the doctors. The whole tone of the conversation was "why are you even wasting our time with this?".

It may not be written, but in practice it is the policy of West Midlands Police to ignore incidents involving cyclists if they can get away with it.

Not known as the filth for nothing.

t4tomo

bendertherobot wrote:

This has been lead item on BBC Wales for a day, but has finally slipped down the list.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-sout ... s-23831543

Slow news day clearly.

Medium sized light coloured car?

You'd have though the police would have been better at taking down details.