The NHS

Yossie

Is it all really that bad or is it just the middle management jeffing it all up in a vain attempt to get new Audis?

Discuss.

priory

It is a massive media attack stoked up by this govt to blow smoke in your eyes while they smash the nhs to bits which they are well on the way to doing through cuts and privatisation and bureaucratic chaos .

Tories have always regarded the nhs as a vote-winner for labour and this is what they have tried to do before but with more subtlety. If we don't get a labour govt soon it will be too late. The lib-dems haven't the bawls to stop it.

It seems remarkable that they could do this with the support of only 23% of the electorate. Why do the journalists just go along with it?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/ju ... lis-review

VmanF3

Why not just re-title this forum, "We Hate Britain" and be done with it!

arran77

There's not a lot wrong with the NHS when it really counts, you've just got to look at places like the US where you have to pay for medical care, there are plenty there who can't afford it and get into a real state.....just like the bloke on the 10 stone testical programme - that wouldn't happen in this country because you get the medical care you need without having to pay.

It winds me up when people moan, if things are so bad go and live somewhere else :evil:

the playing mantis

why not link this thread to the other epic one about the nhs, before it gets into a shouty left/right debate or nigel farage love in.

skylark

Problem with the NHS has to do with all the new services and procedures which they've started offering in recent times. Growth and expansion in Medicine is an exponential affair. When you start extending such a service, offering all sorts exotic treatments and procedures, then costs just escalate. Imagine for example all those Specialist staff which have to be hired on a salary of several hundred-thousand a year. Then there is the competition with private medical institutions and companies. Anyone care to draw up analogies of the NHS with the Financial sector once again?

In the past the NHS was more agricultural, focussed solely on the essentials, a bare bones buffer between life and death of the individual if you will. Nowadays it not only has to maintain the lifestyle and expectations of its population which is attuned to a certain way of thinking of a certain mindset and indeed to a certain standard, but also cater for the ever growing needs of the elderly.

When you start prolonging the lives of sick people, and especially promoting their propagation at the same time, the result is a less and less healthy population.

skylark

arran77 wrote:

It winds me up when people moan, if things are so bad go and live somewhere else :evil:

I absolutely hate that argument. It's a convenient cop out. Every other d*ck is using that argument on the forums.
If things are that bad you don't just leave. You make it right!

Frank the tank

the playing mantis wrote:

why not link this thread to the other epic one about the nhs, before it gets into a shouty left/right debate or nigel farage love in.

Seems reasonable to me fella.

mrfpb

Frank the tank wrote:

the playing mantis wrote:

why not link this thread to the other epic one about the nhs, before it gets into a shouty left/right debate or nigel farage love in.

Seems reasonable to me fella.

That'll be this one viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=12932774

freddiegrubb

In reply to arran 77 there is no such thing as free NHS. millions of folk prop it up weekly/monthly via. nat.ins. governments only spend our/your money (sometimes without thought) but then that's a different thought.

arran77

freddiegrubb wrote:

In reply to arran 77 there is no such thing as free NHS. millions of folk prop it up weekly/monthly via. nat.ins. governments only spend our/your money (sometimes without thought) but then that's a different thought.

You know what I mean, they have taxes etc in other countries but still have to pay for healthcare :P

arran77

skylark wrote:

arran77 wrote:

It winds me up when people moan, if things are so bad go and live somewhere else :evil:

I absolutely hate that argument. It's a convenient cop out. Every other d*ck is using that argument on the forums.
If things are that bad you don't just leave. You make it right!

It's true, if you don't like it either do something about it (which most don't bother to do), quit moaning or sling your hook, it's your choice!

dynamicbrick

freddiegrubb wrote:

In reply to arran 77 there is no such thing as free NHS. millions of folk prop it up weekly/monthly via. nat.ins. governments only spend our/your money (sometimes without thought) but then that's a different thought.

Well that's the rub, isn't it? It's only free in a sense that nobody gets charged for using it, but is supported by the 10 million or so who actually pay NI. The problem isn't that the NHS is inefficient per se, it's that its not too expensive compared with the tax revenue the Treasury receives.

Perhaps if the arsewipes at the top would desist in frittering away money (and Labour were equally culpable of this as the current lot are) on utterly needless bollocks like HS2, war in Afghanistan, Aircraft carriers we don't have anything to fly off of, canning Nimrod immediately after upgrades, letting the MoD buy lightbulbs at £100 a time, and the frankly ludicrous waste on large central government IT projects which universally fail to meet even the original requirement, much less the final, fully crept and obfuscated one, then perhaps, just maybe, there'd be a few quid knocking about in the system to pay for it.

The Tories are out at the next GE, that much is a given. Hopefully Labour, and I loathe Labour, will undo this mess with a sensible hand on the purse strings, rather than the last effort where Brown went utterly mental with generations of tax revenue.

ballysmate

The Tories are out at the next GE, that much is a given. Hopefully Labour, and I loathe Labour, will undo this mess with a sensible hand on the purse strings, rather than the last effort where Brown went utterly mental with generations of tax revenue.

You state that Labour went mental with the tax revenue and ran up huge deficits. Now you want them back because you think they are the party to put it right?

ha ha ha ha ha ha. Stop it, you're killing me!

skylark

The Government, or say the Public Sector seem somewhat inept don't they.
Just a cross-section of observations. If you watch Newsnight almost every day there's some or the other political debate. And the politicians just keep on talking and talking. There's never any conclusion to these debates and you are left neither here nor there. In the US the local people there too complain that the Government is no good.

HS2 in Britain should've been done decades ago. I agree also totally wrong call on Defence spending.
Have you tried the Jobcentre Plus website recently. Fully spammed up with worthless Private Sector Recruitment Agencies who have jobs to fill but are deadlocked in their own lethargy.

skylark

Tories, Labour, are both unfit for purpose.

What does this mean? That Britain is ungovernable.

dynamicbrick

Ballysmate wrote:

The Tories are out at the next GE, that much is a given. Hopefully Labour, and I loathe Labour, will undo this mess with a sensible hand on the purse strings, rather than the last effort where Brown went utterly mental with generations of tax revenue.

You state that Labour went mental with the tax revenue and ran up huge deficits. Now you want them back because you think they are the party to put it right?

ha ha ha ha ha ha. Stop it, you're killing me!

Christ no, I don't want them back at all. But I don't want the Tories to remain in power either. As for the LibDems, my cats would be more effective in Government. The lunatic fringe like UKIP, Green, and whoever else... waste of space.

Frank the tank

dynamicbrick wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

The Tories are out at the next GE, that much is a given. Hopefully Labour, and I loathe Labour, will undo this mess with a sensible hand on the purse strings, rather than the last effort where Brown went utterly mental with generations of tax revenue.

You state that Labour went mental with the tax revenue and ran up huge deficits. Now you want them back because you think they are the party to put it right?

ha ha ha ha ha ha. Stop it, you're killing me!

Christ no, I don't want them back at all. But I don't want the Tories to remain in power either. As for the LibDems, my cats would be more effective in Government. The lunatic fringe like UKIP, Green, and whoever else... waste of space.

Dynamicbrick, that doesn't actually leave a lot of choice really. I agree with you.

Mikey23

Having had a recent off with broken clavicle, broken ribs and punctured lung I have had first hand experience for the last couple of weeks. Had a trip in an ambulance to Barnstaple hospital, fully manned theatre, ward aftercare consultation and release. Then medication, follow up with GP, x rays, referral to derriford hospital. There I had further consultation, decision to operate, early access to theatre, full shoulder reconstruction, aftercare and release. To come is check ups, physio and ongoing assessment of my condition and healing

First class service delivered by skilled and dedicated people. You can speak all the politics you like, they will be there when you need, will do what they have to do and is free at the point of entry

arran77

Mikey23 wrote:

Having had a recent off with broken clavicle, broken ribs and punctured lung I have had first hand experience for the last couple of weeks. Had a trip in an ambulance to Barnstaple hospital, fully manned theatre, ward aftercare consultation and release. Then medication, follow up with GP, x rays, referral to derriford hospital. There I had further consultation, decision to operate, early access to theatre, full shoulder reconstruction, aftercare and release. To come is check ups, physio and ongoing assessment of my condition and healing

First class service delivered by skilled and dedicated people. You can speak all the politics you like, they will be there when you need, will do what they have to do and is free at the point of entry

Well said, when you really need it, the NHS is there for you.

Hope the recovery goes well

ballysmate

Best of luck with your recovery.
But it does seem hit and miss the treatment you can get, even at the same hospital.
I have received excellent service at both Stafford and Wolverhampton, but I have to say it is not universal. I would not have to look further than the experiences of my own family for stories that range from neglect to the laughable.
As I said, it can be hit and miss.
This isn't NHS bashing, but if failings aren't highlighted, they can not be remedied.

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/heal ... -hospital/


http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2013 ... duct-case/

Tb2121

As a NHS employee I do have to say that what the Tories have done to put aspects of the NHS into the media limelight is pretty disgusting but on the ground there are some decent things they've implemented for example there is now more of a push for responsible use of public money- accountability for what we spend- whereas when
Labour were in power in did seem to be a black hole for 3rd parties to sponge money off- now you have to show what you're spending- what benefit etc- and that's a good thing.
But at the same time there is definitely a drive to run parts of it
Down so the private sector can get their hands on it- and from my perspective this is through ramping up public expectation, destroying public confidence in services via media, and allowing private firms to cherry pick certain aspects. This leads to me having to deal with people telling me that the NHS is shit- and they should be seen quicker and treated sooner- when in the majority of cases their treatment is spot on- its their expectations that are
Off.
What the public don't understand is that private firms have to make a profit- therefore the bottom line is that you as the patient is not central to their business model- the shareholders are. I've worked in private hospitals and when
The insurance runs out- you are out- they really don't mess around. This is the bottom line.

Mikey23

How do you make a juggernaut more efficient. A hugely people based organisation, I'm sure it could all be done more efficiently... How many people does it take to fill in a form, how many more times do I need to be asked whether I'm diabetic and whether I have any allergies and everything being done in a defensive, take no risks, I don't want to sued kind of way.

Consultant orthopaedist initially diagnosed op necessary straight away but wouldn't do it due to pneumo thorax and possible complications with general anaesthetic... So all deferred for two weeks, still had to have op with pneumo thorax but different hospital, different consultant with me signing disclaimer to have drain put in if lung collapsed... Therefore two weeks wasted and having to go through pain thing twice. But he's the boss and accountable for the decisions he makes so no real issues with that

ballysmate

Tb2121 wrote:

As a NHS employee I do have to say that what the Tories have done to put aspects of the NHS into the media limelight is pretty disgusting but on the ground there are some decent things they've implemented for example there is now more of a push for responsible use of public money- accountability for what we spend- whereas when
Labour were in power in did seem to be a black hole for 3rd parties to sponge money off- now you have to show what you're spending- what benefit etc- and that's a good thing.
But at the same time there is definitely a drive to run parts of it
Down so the private sector can get their hands on it- and from my perspective this is through ramping up public expectation, destroying public confidence in services via media, and allowing private firms to cherry pick certain aspects. This leads to me having to deal with people telling me that the NHS is shit- and they should be seen quicker and treated sooner- when in the majority of cases their treatment is spot on- its their expectations that are
Off.
What the public don't understand is that private firms have to make a profit- therefore the bottom line is that you as the patient is not central to their business model- the shareholders are. I've worked in private hospitals and when
The insurance runs out- you are out- they really don't mess around. This is the bottom line.

I know there are thousands of dedicated NHS employees and you, being one, have my admiration. But the dedication is not universal. like any large organisation , there are some poor performers.
As I have stated either here or in the 'Plasma' thread, I am not particularly interested in comparing the record of Labour/Tory records regarding the NHS, neither party is universally correct. What I am interested in is improving the care and service available.
So why shouldn't the publics expectations be high? Having high expectations is what drives standards up, which is what we all want. If one of my family are ill, yes, I do expect a high standard of treatment. Don't you? An acceptance of sub standard service is not the way to improve care and treatment for patients.
If something is wrong, it needs highlighting and improving. If an improvement can be made, it needs implementing.
My preferred option would be a free NHS offering first class care.
Don't blame the Government, media or whoever for highlighting shortcomings. If there are shortcomings, they need eradicating. Do not shoot the messenger.
There are undoubtedly some 'Flat Earthers' who want to keep the status quo and will not accept that there is ample room for improvement, but they must understand that things need to evolve.

VmanF3

Lots blaming NHS.

No one is pointing the finger at one of the biggest problems, namely some of the utter scumbag punters who use, sorry abuse it. Overly demanding, dirty, lying, cheating filth who would screw over a system for their own benefit and stuff anyone else.

Fraudulent prescription claims, incorrect use of a&e, phoning 999 for a broken finger nail, pished up knobheads clogging A&E on Friday & Saturday nights, using the nurse call button as a room service device, abusing staff, fighting staff, the list goes on and on.

As far as I'm concerned, most of the ills of this society can be thrown at the general populace, as quite frankly 'we've' turned into a self centred 'mob', go to any town on a Saturday night and watch in disbelief.

It's no wonder staff can't be arsed.

Please understand these are sweeping generalisations and I don't mean 'everyone' in the UK, there are clearly many, many, many exceptions.


We seem to want six star service for free. Look at folk who use easy jet, they treat the staff like sh1te, demand awesome service, yet have paid £10 for a flight....sheesh. Want six star, pay for it. Go private.

ballysmate

VmanF3 wrote:

Lots blaming NHS.

No one is pointing the finger at one of the biggest problems, namely some of the utter scumbag punters who use, sorry abuse it. Overly demanding, dirty, lying, cheating filth who would screw over a system for their own benefit and stuff anyone else.

Fraudulent prescription claims, incorrect use of a&e, phoning 999 for a broken finger nail, pished up knobheads clogging A&E on Friday & Saturday nights, using the nurse call button as a room service device, abusing staff, fighting staff, the list goes on and on.

As far as I'm concerned, most of the ills of this society can be thrown at the general populace, as quite frankly 'we've' turned into a self centred 'mob', go to any town on a Saturday night and watch in disbelief.

It's no wonder staff can't be arsed.

Please understand these are sweeping generalisations and I don't mean 'everyone' in the UK, there are clearly many, many, many exceptions.


We seem to want six star service for free. Look at folk who use easy jet, they treat the staff like sh1te, demand awesome service, yet have paid £10 for a flight....sheesh. Want six star, pay for it. Go private.

You make valid points about the abuses, with which, I fully concur, and yes they will have an affect on morale.
But I come back to this point again - expectation.
Why should we not expect first class treatment. It shouldn't just be reserved for the rich.
As regards not paying for NHS treatment, I am sure George Osbourne would disagree. We all pay.

rick_chasey

Has anyone had any experience in a system with no public health care like the US?

I got decidedly intimate with the US system when I broke my elbow 6 weeks ago.


The hassle with insurance brought a whole new layer of stress and worry. It's not a joined up system. They try and sell you other medical procedures you don't need.

I couldn't get an appointment to see a specialist doctor prescribed to me by the hospital because of a fundamental difference in attitude between the surgery and my insurer. It therefore took me 4 days of back and forth whilst kn considerable pain.

Had I been more seriously hurt I have no idea how I would have arranged it all.

Mikey23

That would have been interesting in my case... The expectation that someone is going to scrape all the bits off the Tarmac, shovel me in the back of the ambulance and an army of skilled professionals are going to to put me back together again as soon as possible at the other end of the journey. In many countries that just wouldn't happen or depend on whether I have exactly the right level of medical insurance

Frank the tank

Over the last 18months I've had both hips re-surfaced (Birmingham hip) and my care on both occasions was second to none, as has been the follow up care.

Gregger

skylark wrote:

In the past the NHS was more agricultural, focussed solely on the essentials, a bare bones buffer between life and death of the individual if you will. Nowadays it not only has to maintain the lifestyle and expectations of its population which is attuned to a certain way of thinking of a certain mindset and indeed to a certain standard, but also cater for the ever growing needs of the elderly.

When you start prolonging the lives of sick people, and especially promoting their propagation at the same time, the result is a less and less healthy population.

Spot on there youth

"Having had a recent off with broken clavicle, broken ribs and punctured lung I have had first hand experience for the last couple of weeks"

And thats what it wasn't designed for as alluded to in on of the other threads. "There's no such thing as society".

ballysmate

skylark wrote:
In the past the NHS was more agricultural, focussed solely on the essentials, a bare bones buffer between life and death of the individual if you will. Nowadays it not only has to maintain the lifestyle and expectations of its population which is attuned to a certain way of thinking of a certain mindset and indeed to a certain standard, but also cater for the ever growing needs of the elderly.

When you start prolonging the lives of sick people, and especially promoting their propagation at the same time, the result is a less and less healthy population.

Sorry? I missed this gem when it was posted.
The NHS agricultural? A bare bones buffer between life and death? I wonder what the thousands of dedicated doctors, nurses and other staff from the past 60 years would make of that.
Cater for the ever growing needs of the elderly? Why the hell not!
Prolonging the lives of sick people? What a radical idea for a health service!
When you start prolonging the lives of sick people, and especially promoting their propagation at the same time? I am sorry, I am not being deliberately obtuse, but you will have to explain that to me.

It may be that the post was meant to be ironic, but if it was, it sailed right over my head.