Cleaning dry lube from a chain

speedymoto

I've been using TF2 dry wax on my chain, but I can't find a suitable solvent to clean it off, can anyone recommend anything??

keef66

I'd try white spirit / paraffin / diesel. Whatever you have lying around.

imposter2.0

As above - almost anything will do. Ride for an hour in the rain and your chain will come back completely free of dry lube...

speedymoto

It's been sitting in a tray of paraffin overnight, and that has slightly loosened the wax, but not enough to clean the chain properly... might try some white spirit this afternoon & see if that works any better. I was disappointed not to find any info on the weldite website, let alone the actual bottle of wax

downhill paul

I have recently switched to a dry lube, I was sick of the constant black grime all over my drivetrain.
the wet lube I used wouldn't exactly come off easy, but muc off chain cleaner or degreaser never let me down.
will it work the same with a dry lube?

drlodge

White spirit works a treat to get things clean, I then apply some citrus cleaner afterwards and rinse with water to get it even cleaner. If using just white spirit, there's a bit of blackened spirit left behind which instantly makes the chain black again.

dennisn

drlodge wrote:

If using just white spirit, there's a bit of blackened spirit left behind which instantly makes the chain black again.

Doe no one even consider the idea that most lubes turn black with use and that's the reason for a black chain?
Is it that out of the question? Not possible at all?
Or is it that you only see black as dirty? You know, it's black, therefore it's bad?
Or is it that you can't admit that you might be wrong about what exactly this "black grudge" actually is?

drlodge

dennisn wrote:

drlodge wrote:

If using just white spirit, there's a bit of blackened spirit left behind which instantly makes the chain black again.

Doe no one even consider the idea that most lubes turn black with use and that's the reason for a black chain?
Is it that out of the question? Not possible at all?
Or is it that you only see black as dirty? You know, it's black, therefore it's bad?
Or is it that you can't admit that you might be wrong about what exactly this "black grudge" actually is?

Obviously the reason for a black chain is due to the lube turning black. But why does it turn black...? Its not turning black on its on, so must be through use and therefore I would guess a combination of dirt and fine metal particles. Therefore black = dirt = bad. The cleaner the lube is the better IMO.

nweststeyn

dennisn wrote:

drlodge wrote:

If using just white spirit, there's a bit of blackened spirit left behind which instantly makes the chain black again.

Doe no one even consider the idea that most lubes turn black with use and that's the reason for a black chain?
Is it that out of the question? Not possible at all?
Or is it that you only see black as dirty? You know, it's black, therefore it's bad?
Or is it that you can't admit that you might be wrong about what exactly this "black grudge" actually is?

What a strangely passive aggressive response to a fairly routine statement.

Are you suggesting that lube turns black through a reaction with air?

And are you suggesting through your "black grudge" comment that someone who wants to clean their chain is somehow being racist?

dennisn

nweststeyn wrote:

dennisn wrote:

drlodge wrote:

If using just white spirit, there's a bit of blackened spirit left behind which instantly makes the chain black again.

Doe no one even consider the idea that most lubes turn black with use and that's the reason for a black chain?
Is it that out of the question? Not possible at all?
Or is it that you only see black as dirty? You know, it's black, therefore it's bad?
Or is it that you can't admit that you might be wrong about what exactly this "black grudge" actually is?

Are you suggesting that lube turns black through a reaction with air?

And are you suggesting through your "black grudge" comment that someone who wants to clean their chain is somehow being racist?

No. I'm suggesting that most lubes turns black during use and this turning black has zero effect on it's ability to lube.

No. I'm suggesting that most people who clean a chain simply because it's turned black are doing so for the wrong reason(see above). They look at the chain, see black, and assume it's dirty but the reality is that it's simply lube turned black as most will.

keef66

When a lube turns black it's because it's contaminated. As Drlodge says, on a bicycle chain the contaminants are liekly to be road dirt and metal particles. How much contamination the lube will tolerate before it's performance starts to deteriorate is a matter for conjecture. (Different situation I know, but motor oil is generally black after just a few hours but continues to protect the engine for many thousands of miles) In the winter leaving it till it forms a thick grinding paste is clearly detrimental to chain longevity (been there, done that)

Completely degreasing the chain at the first sign of black gunk is probably an overreaction, but some people like to keep their chains looking pristine. It's their time and money.

I now take a pragmatic approach. I wipe down the chain every couple of rides with a dry rag to remove any external black residue, then carefully and sparingly lube each roller. I spin the cranks a few times to flex the chain and help the lube work it's way in, then wipe down the chain again to remove any excess. This invariably flushes out a bit more dirt which can only be a good thing.

drlodge

keef66 wrote:

I now take a pragmatic approach. I wipe down the chain every couple of rides with a dry rag to remove any external black residue, then carefully and sparingly lube each roller. I spin the cranks a few times to flex the chain and help the lube work it's way in, then wipe down the chain again to remove any excess. This invariably flushes out a bit more dirt which can only be a good thing.

That's what I do too...using ProGold ProLink its almost self cleaning, I apply some GT85 to the rag as it gets the chain cleaner that way, then relube with a drop on each link (got some cheap dropper bottles off Ebay that are just the trick). Gently wipe of excess and you're done.

dennisn

keef66 wrote:

When a lube turns black it's because it's contaminated.

I think you're wrong. Black color does not prove contamination. Contamination of lube can only be proven by testing not by color. At least that's the info that I got in a bit of web searching.

I also found that almost ALL lubes turn black with use but that the color has no effect on it's ability to lube. Finish Line Ceramic Lube even says, on the label, that it turns black with use but that this doesn't affect it's ability to lube.

My impression? If you put a super clean(new) chain in a sealed clean environment, lubed it up, then ran it for an hour or so, the lube would turn black. Add to that the fact that I have never had a chain NOT turn black and I'm thinking that even the most fanatical clean freaks chains turn black within 10 or 20 miles. Why wouldn't they? After all, lubes turn black with use.

Alitogata

All lubes turn black. But this doesn't change how they lube.
I've stopped using specific dry or wet lubes though, because I ended up in the conclusion that they don't make that big difference. I use sewing machine oil, that is very light for summer and enough thick for winter and I prefer to oil more often my bike's gearing. My chain is not black anymore, rather dark gray, and the most important..the inside of my right calf and my leggins and trousers have no chain marks on them.

As for cleaning .. I clean my chain with paraffin oil, I dry it with a rag and then use very little oil while I spin the cranks.

chrisaonabike

dennisn wrote:

I'm thinking that even the most fanatical clean freaks chains turn black within 10 or 20 miles.

This simply isnt true.

As it happens, I've just done over 400 miles in the last month or so, since replacing my cassette and chain. I've wiped it a few times during this period before relubing with Finish Line dry lube.

It's nowhere near black. It's starting to look less shiny than it did when it was brand new, as is the cassette, but it still looks quite clean.

Why wouldn't they?

Because as it happens, I haven't been out in the wet since replacing the chain.

Funnily enough, last autumn, my bike was brand new, and the chain also stayed quite clean and shiny looking.

For about two weeks. Guess what happened then? Yep, I went riding on wet roads and it went black almost instantly.

drlodge

dennisn wrote:

keef66 wrote:

When a lube turns black it's because it's contaminated.

I think you're wrong. Black color does not prove contamination. Contamination of lube can only be proven by testing not by color. At least that's the info that I got in a bit of web searching.

So now you're suggesting we prove our case, based on some contrary information you read on the Internet. :roll:

Black does prove contamination, otherwise it wouldn't turn black. I agree with you, that just because lube turns black doesn't necessarily mean it loses its lubricating properties though.

The problem with keepng a chain clean looking, is that the black comes from where the chain wears, and these places are not visible. Wiping a chain will only clean the visible places, not where there remains some blackened lube. So the instant some additional lube is applied, the existing black lube seeps out, mixes in and bingo, the chain almost instantly goes black. BUT, the chain may well be well lubricated, lets not confuse the colour of the chain with the effectiveness of the lubrication properties (at least not in a directly propertional relatioship between colour and lubrication effectiveness.

How much a chain goes black will depend on other factors - type of lube, how much lube is applied. A chain that has all the lube wiped off will look nice and shiny for longer.

keef66

"I think you're wrong. Black color does not prove contamination."

A bicycle chain is such an undemanding mechanical system. Oil on a bike chain doesn't turn black unless it's picked up dirt or is carrying metal particles resulting from wear. The fact that it's black clearly does show that it's contaminated, but it doesn't neccessarily mean it's no longer lubricating effectively.

The oil on your pristine chain in a sealed environment would eventually turn black because of wear, but I think it would take a lot longer than a few hours. When I change the transmission fluid in a car's gearbox after 100,000 miles it is only marginally darker than the new fluid going in.

keef66

Anyway, what's the weather like with you Dennis? Only you seem to be doing a lot of arguing on the internet when you could be riding your bikes.

We're currently enjoying a heatwave in the UK. I'm only on here cos I'm at work and bored.

Not bored enough to speculate about the origins of KOPS though...

dennisn

keef66 wrote:

Anyway, what's the weather like with you Dennis? Only you seem to be doing a lot of arguing on the internet when you could be riding your bikes.

We're currently enjoying a heatwave in the UK. I'm only on here cos I'm at work and bored.

Not bored enough to speculate about the origins of KOPS though...

Been extremely hot, humid, and rainy here for the last couple of weeks. Just miserable.
Today and the rest of the week are supposed to be cool(75 deg.) and no rain. I'm leaving for a long ride very soon.

As for my arguing on the internet, well, I'm retired and have a bit more spare time on my hands.

As for the KOPS thing. Biking position has always sort of fascinated me, what with everyone claiming this or that is the way to fit a bike. Actually I think that all decent fit "systems" basically put you in the same position. I mean, there just aren't all that many places to put a rider on a bike.

keef66

"I mean, there just aren't all that many places to put a rider on a bike."

Unless you're Graeme Obree and you're planning to break records, in which case you could be lying face down and pushing on some kind of treadle behind you. But he has a track record* of not just thinking outside the box, but of refusing to acknowledge the very existence of a box.

It doesn't look comfortable though

*well he did have a track record

nweststeyn

I still think that, as mentioned above, claiming a black chain is not contaminated is incorrect. As I said, leaving a lubed chain in air, it will not go black as the result of some change in property. The only thing that makes lube go black is contamination. Whether that bothers you or not is another story, but in theory ANY contamination could cause friction which will reduce the life of your drivetrain. We're splitting hairs here because we ALL run slightly dirty chains in practise anyway.

dennisn

nweststeyn wrote:

I still think that, as mentioned above, claiming a black chain is not contaminated is incorrect. As I said, leaving a lubed chain in air, it will not go black as the result of some change in property. The only thing that makes lube go black is contamination.

I believe I said that black does not prove contamination. People assume black is dirty but that is not proof. My chain is black right now and has been since I put on some lube and then rode it(hell, it's always black). However when I rub a bit of this black stuff between my fingers it feels no different than rubbing fresh lube.

In any case where does all this black come from if, as you say, it's some sort of contamination? What is this contamination composed of that can cause it to turn something black? Dirt is not black. Metal shavings aren't usually black. Rain isn't black. Road grit, gravel, and dust aren't black. Nothing in the air is black. Where is this black coming from? :?

ratsbeyfus

dennisn wrote:

nweststeyn wrote:

I still think that, as mentioned above, claiming a black chain is not contaminated is incorrect. As I said, leaving a lubed chain in air, it will not go black as the result of some change in property. The only thing that makes lube go black is contamination.

I believe I said that black does not prove contamination. People assume black is dirty but that is not proof. My chain is black right now and has been since I put on some lube and then rode it(hell, it's always black). However when I rub a bit of this black stuff between my fingers it feels no different than rubbing fresh lube.

In any case where does all this black come from if, as you say, it's some sort of contamination? What is this contamination composed of that can cause it to turn something black? Dirt is not black. Metal shavings aren't usually black. Rain isn't black. Road grit, gravel, and dust aren't black. Nothing in the air is black. Where is this black coming from? :?

The chain pixies put it there when we sleep? I left my bike in the garden the other day, and a snail must've hopped on. On my ride to work I spotted the snail near the base of my seat tube which freaked me out a little. Anyway, it seemed to be gliding through and chomping on the thin layer of black dusty crud that had collected near my BB... this got me thinking that perhaps I could use an army of snails to clean my bike, and that with a little bit of GM I might even be able to get said snails to leave behind a lubey-residue on my chain! Anyhow, said snail worked his way towards my crankarm and unfortunately topped itself by reaching out into the spinning mass of my chainset.

If there are any molluscologist-bike-riders out there that can manipulate genes feel free to use my idea as I'm far too lazy to actually see this idea to market.

speedymoto

......OK, back to the original topic..... I have tried;

(BTW the chain is off the bike)

Paraffin, left overnight ; slightly softened the wax but that was it
White spirit, left about 1 hour ; didn't appear to have much effect, if any, either
Alcohol, left overnight ; not JD but a bottle of pure 95 degree alcohol - no, nothing, nada
Hot soapy water ; did a good job of removing the residue left from all of the above, and possibly helped remove some of that wax, but still a long way from cleaning it off.....

I contacted Weldite directly, and they were helpful in their response;

"This is a good question which we haven't been asked before.

Usually we would expect the Dry Wax to disperse is use as the chain
warms etc. However if you have residue, we would suggest either our CD1
Citrus degreaser spray or our chain degreaser machine. The
alcohol/propellant in the spray will help to dissolve the residue
whereas the combination of the degreaser liquid & the scrubbing brushes
in the Chain degreaser will do the same job. For a really thorough job,
try giving the chain a quick spray & leaving for a few seconds before
using the machine - your chain should come up like new.

I hope this helps."

However, I don't have any of these specific items to hand, and I would have thought the list of solvents used would have covered it - my chain is relatively clean, but there is certainly residue left clinging on like a sticky sweet - I'm going to refit the chain at some point and I'll use some 3 in 1 in the hope that this dissolves the rest of the wax which can then be flushed out with the next cleaning.

FWIW I'm going back to bog standard lightweight oil which doesn't look or sound very bling, but it works well, is cheap & easy to apply and is very easy to clean off, leaving a fresh chain ready to receive more lube

keef66

Sounds tenacious stuff! I have in the past used Squirt lube which seems to be a water / wax based emulsion. That did what Weldtite suggest, and flaked off taking the dirt with it. White spirit removed what was left when I cleaned the chain.

On occasion I've had to remove candle wax from various things; that generally needs boiling water and washing up liquid and a good scrub. Not sure how practical that would be with a bike chain. Maybe you could gently roast it in the oven to melt the wax first then quickly wipe it and dunk it in boiling water / detergent?

Oh, and I too have gone back to using 3 in 1 oil. Big bottle from Wilco for a couple of quid. Wipe chain every couple of rides, lube each roller sparingly, spin the cranks and wipe off any excess (which also seems to flush out a bit more dirt)

Alitogata

speedymoto wrote:

......OK, back to the original topic..... I have tried;

(BTW the chain is off the bike)

Paraffin, left overnight ; slightly softened the wax but that was it
White spirit, left about 1 hour ; didn't appear to have much effect, if any, either
Alcohol, left overnight ; not JD but a bottle of pure 95 degree alcohol - no, nothing, nada
Hot soapy water ; did a good job of removing the residue left from all of the above, and possibly helped remove some of that wax, but still a long way from cleaning it off.....

I contacted Weldite directly, and they were helpful in their response;

"This is a good question which we haven't been asked before.

Usually we would expect the Dry Wax to disperse is use as the chain
warms etc. However if you have residue, we would suggest either our CD1
Citrus degreaser spray or our chain degreaser machine. The
alcohol/propellant in the spray will help to dissolve the residue
whereas the combination of the degreaser liquid & the scrubbing brushes
in the Chain degreaser will do the same job. For a really thorough job,
try giving the chain a quick spray & leaving for a few seconds before
using the machine - your chain should come up like new.

I hope this helps."

However, I don't have any of these specific items to hand, and I would have thought the list of solvents used would have covered it - my chain is relatively clean, but there is certainly residue left clinging on like a sticky sweet - I'm going to refit the chain at some point and I'll use some 3 in 1 in the hope that this dissolves the rest of the wax which can then be flushed out with the next cleaning.

FWIW I'm going back to bog standard lightweight oil which doesn't look or sound very bling, but it works well, is cheap & easy to apply and is very easy to clean off, leaving a fresh chain ready to receive more lube

I'll suggest something that I haven't try it but I think is going to work as it seems that the lube you used is more like wax/teflon stuff.

Try Aceton. Nail varnish remover. Leave the chain over night in this, but use a box or something that has a lid as Aceton vapors and smells really strong. Then rub it with a tooth brush, ( if you don't have this chain cleaning machine). If the lube is made of wax/teflon/synthetic something Aceton will remove it. Don't forget to wash it after use and don't let it come in contact with any plastic or elastic parts..

(What the hell is what you've put on your chain?? :shock: Truly now.. the company that makes this stuff makes it in order to make our lives easier??? I wonder :roll: )

speedymoto

speedymoto wrote:

Maybe you could gently roast it in the oven to melt the wax first then quickly wipe it and dunk it in boiling water / detergent?

Oh yes, I forgot to say I left it in the midday sun for an hour too, hoping it would melt the wax (the chain was too hot to touch) but no luck there either!

keef66 wrote:

Try Aceton. Nail varnish remover.

The one thing I didn't try - I have a bottle of it handy so I'll give it a go later & see if it works, it is my last resort for most things as it is pretty vicious stuff - I'll report back

Alitogata

speedymoto wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot to say I left it in the midday sun for an hour too, hoping it would melt the wax (the chain was too hot to touch) but no luck there either!

Can't melt..if this stuff is made like motor bike's lubes ( which are made for high spins and high temperatures over 150 C, it wan't melt under then sun and you'll have to literally roast it in the oven.. But this might destroy your chain, don't mention that your oven will smell burned lube. ( bliah).

dennisn

Whatever happened to the "old" method of putting the chain in a jar, pour in a little gasoline to cover it, shake let set and repeat, let set all night if you like, pull out chain, wipe with rag, air dry, put on bike, lube, and ride? Outside of some sort of laboratory setting I'm thinking there isn't a better way to get whatever is on a chain off.

frank-e-boy

It all seems a lot of work...... I'd buy a new chain I think, a lot less hassle

dennisn

And what about kids bikes? Never oiled, never cleaned(unless you consider being left out in the rain cleaned), zero maintenance, and yet I can't recall ever hearing of a chain failure. Now on this site it's a whole other story. Always someone chiming in about this or that "bad" chain. Makes me wonder. Now I realize that kids don't do near the miles we do and their chains are slightly heavier but no one can neglect a bike like a kid. Reminds me of the two ways to do things. Don't fix it if it ain't broke or fix it until it's broke.