Chain slipping

Abrofitter

Hi guys, I'm after some advice about chain slip under pressure. I have looked through most of the other posts around this subject and nothing seems to fit the bill!!!
Basically I ride a 2003 Specialized Hardrock that I upgraded to Hardrock sport spec from a damaged H/R sport frame I was given!!! I have over time serviced the various areas as and when required as it's my daily commuter. I put a new cassette on in March 2012, a Shimano HG41, with an IG chain from the damaged bike and this was fine for a while but the chain started slipping so I replaced it with a new HG40 chain from CRC!!! I also then replaced the rear derailleur with a direct replacement, a Shimano Acera M360, as the cage had took a whack when I fell of in the rain!! I fitted all these items and it was right as rain!!! Then the chain started slipping again 6 weeks later so I ordered another chain without looking to see what was really causing it, i later found the rear wheel bearing cones had not been set up right by the previous owner and had worked quite loose causing wheel wobble and gear problems!!! So after sorting the bearing problem, I set about fitting the new chain so that I could have a spare of the right size in my bag at all times only this chain slipped dreadfully under pressure in 7th and 8th but no others, it was a SRAM PC850 that again I got from CRC who said it would fit, but when I contacted them about a refund they said no as I had fitted it!!! So I have a spare chain that won't fit, so I swallowed that loss and again on CRC's advice got an IG 70 chain as that should fit!!! I have just recently started to hear funny noises from the drive train and so I stripped it down took the cassette off and washed it in a parts washer at work and the chain too and I removed the Hussefelt Howitzer 2.2 Double and Bash crank and cleaned that and refitted it all and lubricated correctly!!! I measured the chain and found that it had between 1/16th and 1/8th of an inch wear over 12 inches/links so decided to fit the IG chain!!! Exactly the same problem as the SRAM chain I mentioned earlier, it slips in 8th gear but no others!!!! It slips once every 1/4 turn of the crank!!!!! I have set the chain length to the same as the worn chain, which doesn't slip yet by the way, I have had the chain 1 link longer and 1 link shorter and the same issue occurs!!!! Now I know what some of you are gonna say, the cassette is worn, but although I ride in all weathers it has done less than 1400 miles!!! It gets removed, as does the chain, and cleaned every 4-6 weeks with a good wipe down and a chain relube a few times in between fully cleaning it!! I can't honestly see that it's a worn cassette causing it as it was 5 months old when it did it with the SRAM chain first time round!!! I have put my old worn chain back on so I can get to work this week but don't want to completely wear the cassette out prematurely by doing this!!!! I have also used various methods of chain sizing from using the old chain, the mathematics route to calculate the correct length and even the two largest cogs method all of which come up with a lenght of 52 inches or complete links!!!! So is there anyone here who has this problem and overcome it simply???? I have two new chains to use, both of which on paper should work with my drivetrain!! I know that IG chains should work with HG cassettes but HG chains dont work with IG cassettes or so I've been informed!!!!
Please anyone who might know the answer to my little issue, share your wealth of knowledge!!!!

Many Thanks

Dan

Just about at the end of my tether with this one!!!!http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/posting.php?mode=post&f=10004#

supersonic

Change the chainrings, cassette and chain all at the same time to avoid conflicts.

Abrofitter

Doesn't help right now though, I'm gonna do that at the end of the month!!!!! But I still want to get to the bottom of it, the chainrings may be worn as I don't know the age or mileage as I got them on the damaged bike, but the new chain is slipping at the rear not the front!!! Can visually see it when I look back down while riding, but I'd need a parabolic roller to create the fault with someone riding it so i could see it!!!! It has to be something simple other than cassette as the same fault occurred when the cassette was only months old with a new chain!!!!
Any others with sensible cost effective suggestions that might save me a fortune in the long run????

Chunkers1980

Buy a chain checker.

Abrofitter

Read my first post again!!! NEW CHAIN!!!! Old chain worn between 1/16th an 1/8th inch over 12 inches does not slip but is getting near to extreme wear, NEW CHAIN slipping!!!!!! New chain slipped on this same cassette when it was 5 months old so I'm saying cassette is ok less than 1500 miles on it!!!! So why do 2 new unused but different make chains slip on a cassette that's barely broken in, that they are both meant to be compatible with???? I'm admittedly not a bike mechanic, but I am a car and hgv mechanic so it's not like I cant tell when things are worn!!!! I have been biking all my life and maintaining my own bike for the last 3 years, so I have a bit of experience and knowledge, but I'm asking for help cos this is an oddball situation!!!!! I don't need stupid responses about replacing all my drivetrain components or buying an overpriced tool to check chain wear when an engineers precision rule will do the job!!!!! Plus as I said it's a NEW CHAIN!!!!!!

Sensible responses please, and read ALL of my first post!!!!!

cooldad

Take a deep breath, stop with the hysterics, and try again. Something is either not adjusted properly, or worn.
If everything is adjusted properly, something is worn.
If the chain is brand new, it's probably the cassette.
Make of chain makes no difference as long as it's the right size.
Excessive use of !!!!!!!!!!! and ????????????? and CAPS will not help.

Chunkers1980

What're you on. Few will read that.

My response was to your last question.

97th choice

Take it to an LBS if you are completely stuck. It will be cheaper than randomly buying chains.

The Rookie

If you want help, ranting like a 2 year old is not the way to get it.

If you have fitted a new chain then the issues is almost certainly the cassette causing the problem as the profiles will be worn to the old chain and this thus the new one is only engaging on a few teeth not all as it should. It could also or instead by the chainrings, but cassette is most likely.

Abrofitter

Sorry I was not meant to be antogonistic, but I'm stuck and I do need help. Would it really be cassette after just that sort of mileage (between 1250 and 1400 miles give or take) I thought cassettes were supposed to be good for 4-5k miles if maintained? Also as I wrote in the original post, I mistakenly thought the chain needed replacement due to slipping before (was a loose wheel bearing problem) and so a new chain was fitted on a 250ish mile old cassette and it slipped drastically worse than the original chain. The slipping both then and now with the new chains was about every 1/4 turn of the crank but the slipping is most definitely at the rear so ruling out chainrings! I'm just a bit confused to what is wrong, all the gearing, indexing and derailleurs are all setup and shifting sweetly. The bike is cleaned and re lubricated regularly as I cannot be without it (it's my daily commuter). Any good suggestions would be appreciated, and I apologise for my earlier shortness!!!
Many Thanks!!!
Dan

Chunkers1980

If you use a overly stretched chain it can do untold damage. If you don't spread use over the rear cogs then you will get trouble too. Modern 9/10 trains are more susceptible to wear as are haveing less teeth in the sprockets also.

Abrofitter

That sounds familiar, I do tend to use 5,6,7,8 and 14,15 and 16!!! Not so much the lower gears so they are nearly unworn!!! I'm still not convinced it's the cassette, but as I'm gonna replace the crankset and upgrade my pedals at the end of the month I might as well do the cassette too!!! I've got the choice of two chains to use with it anyway lol!!
I think the chain is still within the given wear limits so probably not caused too much other damage but still worth changing all the other components!!!

Ouija

Don't forget to check for correct chain length and derailleur tension. On the smallest cassette ring, which has the least amount of teeth meshing with the chain, if the derailleur isn't sitting the top jockey wheel close enough to it then you have even fewer teeth meshing with the ring and it can slip. You can rotate most derailleurs back and forwards with an adjustment screw to get it sitting the right distance away from the cassette. It can be that screw that is incorrectly adjusted or a chain that's been cut too short, pulling the derailleur too straight. I've often found that if i'm only getting slippage in the smaller rings it tends to be this, whereas if i get slippage all across the cassette it's usually cassette/chain wear.

rubbernekker

By constantly changing the chain or cassette onto partially worn components you are accelerating the wear of the new component. Replace both components at the same time and all your problems will go away. You are essentially using broad rules of thumb to dismiss the fact that one or more of the components is worn. Here in NZ, one 72km ride called the Heaphy trail can kill your jockey wheels- literally new to shurikens in 2 days due to the clay grit conditions. 'In Theory' they should last 5000km. In reality with a bit of rain they don't. By swapping your chain onto a mostly worn cassette the forces are being taken by worn teeth that don't spread the load to the chain properly thereby wearing the bushes quickly. The same applies to the cassette, where a mostly worn chain will load only a few teeth and wear them out fast.

I get why you go to CR for your stuff, but in this case it was a false economy- any bike shop would have been able to explain that in 5 mins, and if they did and you didn't trust them and thought they just wanted to sell you another component- more fool you.

Change it all: cassette,chain cables- see if runs,if not then chainrings.

The Rookie

For gods sake, stop using !!!! and ???? it just makes you come across as a twit (polite version) whether you are or not I don't know.

Also PARAGRAPHS makes stuff readable.

The lord helps those who help themselves!

Tigger con carne

I had a problem like this a few (by which I mean "too many") years ago and discovered it was the freehub that was slipping under pressure.

Abrofitter

It's definitely not freehub or else it would do it with any chain or or sprocket, new or used.
I'm going to replace the crankset and cassette at the end of the month, when I get paid, and take it from there.

In the meantime back to the old worn chain and cassette as it rides ok for now, then use one of my two unused new chains with all the new components, if it still slips then I will look into it again.

I might try the tension screw or b screw as its called and see if the chain tension is ok, but I have not had any issues with it before so who knows!

Thanks for your help guys, sorry for the attitude at the start, I was a bit stressed and confused.

PARAGRAPHS and less !!!!! and ??????
Is that better??? Sorry!!! Lol


Thanks again
Dan

The Rookie

Much better....well until the last bit!

Abrofitter

Ok, I can admit when I'm wrong! I have now fitted a new Truvativ Holzfeller Crank, new shimano chain and 8 speed cassette and as yet have not ridden any real distance but up and down the drive it changes up and down smoothly without and chain slippage under load, so guys I tip my hat and admit I was indeed wrong about the cassette wear. I also brought some new DMR V8's in blue and some new NUKEPROOF lock on grips in white. My white Specialized is now Blue and white colour coded to match the frame and decals with white crank arms and frame and grips and blue pedals. Soon to follow are anodized blue spoke nipples that I'm replacing the old worn and knackered ones with so I can for one colour code my Alex DM wheels and two so that I can get the dish on the rear wheel set correct as it had previously suffered some broken spokes (before my ownership) and when it had been repaired the dish was not quite right and the wheel sits slightly left of centre between the chainstays.

Thanks for the advice guys.
Cheers
Dan

cooldad

Anodized nipples, being aluminium are a stupid idea.

The Rookie

Indeed, aluminium nipples, unless it's an out and out XC racer are a silly idea.

jacknorell

Use brass nipples, always. Aluminium ones can seize easily, and are easily stripped when trueing the wheel.

Also, cost a lot more. I.e. only downsides really.

Abrofitter

As opposed to the brass ones which have corroded into the wells of the rims and so now rounded off, where aluminium in an aluminium rim won't corrode due to the two metals being the same!!! Or is there some other problem that I as a mechanic that I haven't realised???

Ally nipples are soft as I'm aware, but as I said above ally in ally doesn't corrode as much and they will suit the bikes look!! And are ally nipples any stronger or weaker than brass ones??

Cheers
Dan

cooldad

Yes

Abrofitter

I shall fit them up with a dab of silicone grease that will hopefully stop and water ingress and help to slow any oxidisation between nipple and spoke.

The Rookie

Don't forget you'll be truing the wheel afterwards as well.

I still wouldn't.

cooldad

But it looks so pretty...

njee20

Alu nips are far weaker than brass, and prone to seizing. You can limit this by lubing when you build, but you're just delaying the inevitable.

As to your original problem the clue was there from the start - the fact it only skipped in certain gears meant it was only ever likely to be the cassette. Using certain sprockets more means they'll wear quicker obviously, and the smallest ones will wear faster than any other. You can destroy a cassette in no time at all doing that. Slipping is unlikely to ever be a chain, a buggered chain will just destroy an unworn cassette, it'll rarely slip.

Abrofitter

The reason behind new nipples is the seized and rounded brass ones, meaning I cannot get the dish right. It currently sits left of centre in the chain stays, so when I fit up the ally nipples I will use silicone grease on the threads and where they contact the rim and true and dish the wheel correctly. I hope the grease will hold off the corrosive effects and they'll stay usable without issue!!

njee20

It'll hold it off, but that's it.

You've checked it's definitely the wheel and not the frame I assume?

Abrofitter

Yes the frame is fine. Prior to using this disc braked wheel I had the same rims only in v brake set up and that wheel was fine, but since upgrading tyres to a slightly wider tyre it is now more obvious and the tyre is close to rubbing!