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Team Sky

YossieYossie Posts: 2,600
edited July 2013 in The bottom bracket
Really good at doping or really good at getting the best out of their riders in such a way that no other team can.

Discuss.

Posts

  • verylonglegsverylonglegs Posts: 3,753
    Bizarrely Bottom Bracket may be a more sensible place to discuss this topic rather than the lunatic asylum that is Pro Race during Le Tour. My take on it is to flip the whole thing on it's head for those that seemingly will always accuse any winners of doping and ask exactly what race situation would you like to see happen before you are convinced it is clean riding? How small do the time gaps have to be for them to believe it? Take it at face value and enjoy it and if it turns out to be as not as pure as first thought then so be it, you can't do anything about it either way.
  • pinnopinno Posts: 47,747
    Froome could have won last years TdF. He was shackled to the contract and his role. How many times did he look over his shoulder at Wiggo last year or shout at him? He dragged him everywhere it was mountainous. Now released from his duty, he has shown what he is capable of.
    For years Froome suffered from Schistosomiasis (Bilharzia) which can be debilitating and it held him back. Friends back home said that during the christmas period (2011) in Mombasa, he was riding in 35deg heat and 110% humidity doing a 100 mile + rides such was his dedication. Now they have supressed the Bilharzia, I expect it was like sprouting wings because he has had it all the time he has been pro despite it. Bilharzia will eat away at the major organs if left untreated.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • alihisgreatalihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    I want to believe that Sky are the masters of the transition between dirty and clean, and that they are the best at getting the most out of clean riders.. something which other teams are still playing catchup on.

    Supporting evidence?

    -money money money
    -marginal gains
    -I find it hard to believe Wiggins would dope
    -Stakes are too high because of links to British Cycling and track medals
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,903
    You have to believe that riders are clean until proved to be cheats. Otherwise they may as well cancel the races altogether.
    Likewise athletics. With the recent revelations it would be easy to dismiss them all as cheats. But you have to continue to believe until proved otherwise.
  • davieseedaviesee Posts: 6,386
    Ballysmate wrote:
    You have to believe that riders are clean until proved to be cheats. Otherwise they may as well cancel the races altogether.
    Likewise athletics. With the recent revelations it would be easy to dismiss them all as cheats. But you have to continue to believe until proved otherwise.
    I was trying to think what to write but this pretty much sums it up.
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • seanoconnseanoconn Posts: 10,134
    Yossie wrote:
    Really good at doping or really good at getting the best out of their riders in such a way that no other team can.

    Discuss.
    You got the pm from Pinarello too I see :lol:
    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • laurentianlaurentian Posts: 2,178
    Great Article in today's Sunday Time Sports section by David Walsh on this very matter

    Walsh has been embedded with Team Sky throughout the Tour and prior to it.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • junglist_mattyjunglist_matty Posts: 1,728
    All the evidence pro team sky fans spurt is usually written by people who are affiliated with, worked with, "embedded" with, worked for or friends with Team Sky..... They are hardly going to write that they are suspicious of doping etc.

    Why would Team Sky simply let Cav walk straight to OPQS last year when he still had a couple of years left on his Sky contract? ...The worlds best sprinter? Let go as easy as that? Not a chance, for example, look at Man Utd with Rooney (Im not a footy follower, but I know of the big names and it's all over the news). They won't let him go, he wants to go.

    It's obvious that behind the scenes Cav wasn't happy, he wanted out and was allowed to go on the basis he wouldn't talk out.... And they even went to the length of spinning it to make it look like the team are the ones who told Cav to leave and not that Cav wanted to leave!

    HOWEVER, If you seriously think any of the pro cycling teams are clean, you're on cloud 9, so I don't care as they're all at it, they'll always be at it, and when riders get caught, it's nothing to do with the team and they are all completely oblivious their riders are doping.
  • random manrandom man Posts: 1,518
    The chances of getting caught doping now are far greater than ten years ago, with the blood passport system. If Froome was doping, and I certainly hope he isn't, then I think he'd have been able to win yesterday's stage. As it was he got beaten by a younger rider who's been brought up at altitude.
    The penalties for doping in France are so severe that no French rider has a hope of winning, which suggests that if French riders are clean and have only won one stage, doping still exists in the peloton given some teams' performances, and I don't mean Sky.
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    All the evidence pro team sky fans spurt is usually written by people who are affiliated with, worked with, "embedded" with, worked for or friends with Team Sky..... They are hardly going to write that they are suspicious of doping etc.

    Why would Team Sky simply let Cav walk straight to OPQS last year when he still had a couple of years left on his Sky contract? ...The worlds best sprinter? Let go as easy as that? Not a chance, for example, look at Man Utd with Rooney (Im not a footy follower, but I know of the big names and it's all over the news). They won't let him go, he wants to go.

    It's obvious that behind the scenes Cav wasn't happy, he wanted out and was allowed to go on the basis he wouldn't talk out.... And they even went to the length of spinning it to make it look like the team are the ones who told Cav to leave and not that Cav wanted to leave!

    HOWEVER, If you seriously think any of the pro cycling teams are clean, you're on cloud 9, so I don't care as they're all at it, they'll always be at it, and when riders get caught, it's nothing to do with the team and they are all completely oblivious their riders are doping.

    You will find that in most industries and businesses, you are made to sign documents to not release information after you leave or face huge financial costs. This is very common these days.


    I dont think they are cheating, Sky have way to much to lose.
    Living MY dream.
  • alihisgreatalihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    All the evidence pro team sky fans spurt is usually written by people who are affiliated with, worked with, "embedded" with, worked for or friends with Team Sky..... They are hardly going to write that they are suspicious of doping etc.

    Why would Team Sky simply let Cav walk straight to OPQS last year when he still had a couple of years left on his Sky contract? ...The worlds best sprinter? Let go as easy as that? Not a chance, for example, look at Man Utd with Rooney (Im not a footy follower, but I know of the big names and it's all over the news). They won't let him go, he wants to go.

    It's obvious that behind the scenes Cav wasn't happy, he wanted out and was allowed to go on the basis he wouldn't talk out.... And they even went to the length of spinning it to make it look like the team are the ones who told Cav to leave and not that Cav wanted to leave!

    HOWEVER, If you seriously think any of the pro cycling teams are clean, you're on cloud 9, so I don't care as they're all at it, they'll always be at it, and when riders get caught, it's nothing to do with the team and they are all completely oblivious their riders are doping.

    Sky wanted to get rid of Cav because he was unhappy, under performing, and a hefty chunk of their wage bill.

    Apparently his salary for 2012 was £2.4m... that's £2.4m that Sky can put to use on other riders now. Makes sense to me!

    or you can believe its a doping conspiracy.. whichever seems more reasonable to you.
  • Mikey23Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    There were a few occasions towards the end when Froome looked incredibly vulnerable particularly when he tried to whizz up the road and knackered himself. I would have expected a doper to be able to sustain that effort and pull away in that superhuman way they often did.
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 5,708
    random man wrote:
    The chances of getting caught doping now are far greater than ten years ago, with the blood passport system. If Froome was doping, and I certainly hope he isn't, then I think he'd have been able to win yesterday's stage. As it was he got beaten by a younger rider who's been brought up at altitude.
    The penalties for doping in France are so severe that no French rider has a hope of winning, which suggests that if French riders are clean and have only won one stage, doping still exists in the peloton given some teams' performances, and I don't mean Sky.
    The French thing is interesting. They are still turning out significant numbers of good quality riders who look like they could do something but don't quite hit the top step. I would suggest that this isn't just about doping but reflective of not adopting modern practice. The complete antithesis of Sky /BC. Britain has a modest sized pool of raw talent but absolutely gets the best from the cream of that crop. France produces a wealth of talent but simply doesn't reap its full potential.
  • Frank the tankFrank the tank Posts: 6,553
    In answer to the OP, I don't think they are. Time and tests will tell. I think as mentioned previously the links to BC is a significant factor. Whether the peloton is clean ?????????????????????? :?
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • frisbeefrisbee Posts: 691
    random man wrote:
    The chances of getting caught doping now are far greater than ten years ago, with the blood passport system. If Froome was doping, and I certainly hope he isn't, then I think he'd have been able to win yesterday's stage. As it was he got beaten by a younger rider who's been brought up at altitude.
    The penalties for doping in France are so severe that no French rider has a hope of winning, which suggests that if French riders are clean and have only won one stage, doping still exists in the peloton given some teams' performances, and I don't mean Sky.

    Or they could just be censored at it, like they are at wars, devising right of way rules for roundabouts, making reliable cars etc., etc.
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 5,708
    frisbee wrote:
    random man wrote:
    The chances of getting caught doping now are far greater than ten years ago, with the blood passport system. If Froome was doping, and I certainly hope he isn't, then I think he'd have been able to win yesterday's stage. As it was he got beaten by a younger rider who's been brought up at altitude.
    The penalties for doping in France are so severe that no French rider has a hope of winning, which suggests that if French riders are clean and have only won one stage, doping still exists in the peloton given some teams' performances, and I don't mean Sky.

    Or they could just be censored at it, like they are at wars, devising right of way rules for roundabouts, making reliable cars etc., etc.
    This was essentially my point but slightly more delicately put.
  • davieseedaviesee Posts: 6,386
    All the evidence pro team sky fans spurt is usually written by people who are affiliated with, worked with, "embedded" with, worked for or friends with Team Sky..... They are hardly going to write that they are suspicious of doping etc.

    Why would Team Sky simply let Cav walk straight to OPQS last year when he still had a couple of years left on his Sky contract? ...The worlds best sprinter? Let go as easy as that? Not a chance, for example, look at Man Utd with Rooney (Im not a footy follower, but I know of the big names and it's all over the news). They won't let him go, he wants to go.

    It's obvious that behind the scenes Cav wasn't happy, he wanted out and was allowed to go on the basis he wouldn't talk out.... And they even went to the length of spinning it to make it look like the team are the ones who told Cav to leave and not that Cav wanted to leave!

    HOWEVER, If you seriously think any of the pro cycling teams are clean, you're on cloud 9, so I don't care as they're all at it, they'll always be at it, and when riders get caught, it's nothing to do with the team and they are all completely oblivious their riders are doping.
    Cav needs a team built wholly around him, ala HTC. OPQ haven't done well enough and/or Cav hasn't produced.
    Sky simply aren't that kind of team and their results are the proof of the pudding.
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • bdu98252bdu98252 Posts: 171
    Sky follow the British cycling model of putting a large sum of money behind a group of athletes whilst making them compete against each other for selection. Other teams appear to say for example Contador is the leader and everyone else is there to support. I am confident that come next year if the numbers or form suggested that Froome was not the strongest then he is unlikely to be the leader.

    It is about consistency and repeatability. For the Olympics they want to see 4 years of crushing dominance not 3 months of promise prior to the games. Internal squad competition drives this as by the time you get to external competition you are the best and have been tested.
  • probably not doping as too much at stake if caught. what need has brailsford to do it, ruin his rep and cushy number with BC. too much to risk. that said, who is to know, despite the blood passport and enhanced testing, that there is not some new super duper pill that is not currently detectable? we don't.

    well done froome, but please lets stop calling him british, i find it very uncomfortable. he clearly isnt. he comes from british stock, but his head and heart are in africa. flag of convenience if ever there was one.
  • jezzpalmerjezzpalmer Posts: 389
    All the evidence pro team sky fans spurt is usually written by people who are affiliated with, worked with, "embedded" with, worked for or friends with Team Sky..... They are hardly going to write that they are suspicious of doping etc.

    Why would Team Sky simply let Cav walk straight to OPQS last year when he still had a couple of years left on his Sky contract? ...The worlds best sprinter? Let go as easy as that? Not a chance, for example, look at Man Utd with Rooney (Im not a footy follower, but I know of the big names and it's all over the news). They won't let him go, he wants to go.

    It's obvious that behind the scenes Cav wasn't happy, he wanted out and was allowed to go on the basis he wouldn't talk out.... And they even went to the length of spinning it to make it look like the team are the ones who told Cav to leave and not that Cav wanted to leave!

    Someone needs to leave the psychedelics alone, that's one of the most tenuous and hopeless conspiracy theories I've ever heard. LOL :D
  • ademortademort Posts: 1,924
    If Sky did use doping they didn,t do a very good job of it. Apart from Froome the rest of the team were fairly evenly spread out in the overall classification at the end. Personally i don,t think Froome or Sky have used doping or ever will use doping. I think David Brailsford know s that if Sky are caught doping it will mean the END of the Sky team and have an enormous impact on cycling in the UK and in the peleton.
    It will ruin everything that He and the rest of the team have achieved over the last few years.For the doubters look at the stats of this years race.Sky,s riders finished
    1
    19
    77
    90
    128
    135
    140
    These are hardly the figures of a team that uses doping are they.
    They also finished 9th in the team classification. Again these figures are hardly impressive are they. Ok, thanks to Froome they won the most prize money by far but even so thes figures hardly point to doping.
    ademort
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  • Mikey23Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Yup was thinking that. If they were doping they were a bit rubbish at it. There were a few times during the tour when it nearly ended in tears for them and the opposition wasn't overwhelmingly tough
  • YossieYossie Posts: 2,600
    ademort wrote:
    If Sky did use doping they didn,t do a very good job of it. Apart from Froome the rest of the team were fairly evenly spread out in the overall classification at the end. Personally i don,t think Froome or Sky have used doping or ever will use doping. I think David Brailsford know s that if Sky are caught doping it will mean the END of the Sky team and have an enormous impact on cycling in the UK and in the peloton.
    It will ruin everything that He and the rest of the team have achieved over the last few years.For the doubters look at the stats of this years race.Sky,s riders finished
    1
    19
    77
    90
    128
    135
    140
    These are hardly the figures of a team that uses doping are they.
    They also finished 9th in the team classification. Again these figures are hardly impressive are they. Ok, thanks to Froome they won the most prize money by far but even so thes figures hardly point to doping.

    Sorry?

    "These are hardly the figures of a team that uses doping are they"

    Yes they are, completely. Call me naive, but if I was going to dope my team to the top there is no way on hell that I would fill the first 9 or so places - doing it this way means that you can point at your spread out placings and say "look, only one of our dudes won it, the rest were rubbish".

    Its not the final placings that you need to look at - they just mean that the lads were told to do well but not too well and therefore don't draw attention to yourselves - its the riders' day in and day out performances you need to watch for. Which the Sky did riders pretty well at ......

    G's ride with a broken pelvis. Marvellous. Hearty warming. The show of a man putting his team before his health. And Hincapie when he did it with his broken collarbone a few years ago - and he wasn't doping at all. Errrrr.......

    "I think David Brailsford know s that if Sky are caught doping it will mean the END of the Sky team and have an enormous impact on cycling in the UK and in the peloton."

    I don't think these people care about the big picture really - after all it didn't stop Rick's mate LA and his gang o' posties.......
  • Sirius631Sirius631 Posts: 991
    After the Lance Armstrong era, nobody is deluded enough to believe that they can run a systematic, team wide doping program without it unravelling when someone blabs. This will leave a few teams at a loss of how to put a structured training program together for clean riders, whereas it's in Sky's core culture.

    Sky have their squads do longer training blocks and race less than other squads. You can train harder than you can race, so Sky are more adept at tuning their condition.

    For the 2012 season, it was a great promotional opportunity to have the reigning World Champion on a British team in preparation for the Olympics, for both Sky and Cav. I said at the time that Cav and Sky weren't a good fit for each other, considering Sky's focus on the yellow jersey. You don't offer a star rider a one year contract, those are for riders at the end of their careers or those that need to prove themselves. When Sky took Cav on, there would have been pre-written exit clauses in the contract that would have allowed Cav to depart without penalty.

    Now that Cav is in OPQ, he doesn't have the lead-out train or personal lieutenant that he had at his pervious teams. I expect that to be corrected next season when Bernie Eisel leaves Sky.
    To err is human, but to make a real balls up takes a super computer.
  • YossieYossie Posts: 2,600
    Surely ego/ambition/thinking that you're too clever by half exceeds delusion at times?

    Not havin' a pop at Sky per se, just discussin' like ........
  • greasedscotsmangreasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    The worlds best sprinter?

    Isn't that Marcel Kittel?
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