Team pace setting - death of through and off?

alan_sherman

There seems to be a spate of team tactics for pace setting, either on a mountain or on the run-in to the finish, where the team get used up one by one.

A made up example: A flat stage and a break is up the road. Team Sky need to pull it back. They are on the front en masse. However it seems that they let Geraint ride his heart out for ten miles on the front, then he is spent and drops out from the peleton. Next up is Stannard, then Porte.

Now this seems an odd tactic to me - I'd have thought it better if the team operated more as a team time trial cycling around the front rider more often to share the wind and allow recovery periods - thus keeping the team more together and I'd have though overall faster.

Now - am I just making this up or is it a tactic that is being used more or is it just the TV coverage I am watching making it appear like this? If so what is the logic behind the burn 'em out and sling 'em off approach compared to the tradition bit of through and off?


Thoughts?

slim_boy_fat

Christ this one has never been discussed before...

RichN95.

It's so they use their weaker riders when they can so that the stronger ones are fresher when if something significant happens.

alan_sherman

But it seems to being used *when* something significant is happening. Going back to the echlon stage it seemed to be used by everyone apart from the break. The break were doing trough and off however.

Slim boy fat - if its been covered somewhere else then please direct me. I read this forum quite a lot and haven't seen this come up.

above_the_cows

Its a bit hard to do through and off in a peloton of nigh on 200 riders. It works in smaller breaks, but it is just not feasible to do it in large groups.

RichN95.

alan sherman wrote:

But it seems to being used *when* something significant is happening. Going back to the echlon stage it seemed to be used by everyone apart from the break. The break were doing trough and off however.

There's a big difference between a team riding as fast as they can for 30km to open up a gap as you saw with Saxo/Belkin in the echelons, and a team riding at a comfortable tempo with little regard to time for 130km as you see with Sky today.

If another team suddenly ups the pace a lot on one of the climbs, Stannard & Thomas will go out the back fairly fast, so they use them when they can rather than having Porte & Kennaugh wasting energy.

slim_boy_fat

alan sherman wrote:

But it seems to being used *when* something significant is happening. Going back to the echlon stage it seemed to be used by everyone apart from the break. The break were doing trough and off however.

Slim boy fat - if its been covered somewhere else then please direct me. I read this forum quite a lot and haven't seen this come up.

It was massively done to death last year when it was the tactic employed by Sky to help Wiggins win.

Daz555

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

alan sherman wrote:

But it seems to being used *when* something significant is happening. Going back to the echlon stage it seemed to be used by everyone apart from the break. The break were doing trough and off however.

Slim boy fat - if its been covered somewhere else then please direct me. I read this forum quite a lot and haven't seen this come up.

It was massively done to death last year when it was the tactic employed by Sky to help Wiggins win.

And it was the perfect tactic for the 2012 route and also perfect for Wiggins strengths/weaknesses - massive capacity but lacking punch so absolutely vital that pace was high at all times in the mountains to neutralise the pedal dancers.

slim_boy_fat

Daz555 wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

alan sherman wrote:

But it seems to being used *when* something significant is happening. Going back to the echlon stage it seemed to be used by everyone apart from the break. The break were doing trough and off however.

Slim boy fat - if its been covered somewhere else then please direct me. I read this forum quite a lot and haven't seen this come up.

It was massively done to death last year when it was the tactic employed by Sky to help Wiggins win.

And it was the perfect tactic for the 2012 route and also perfect for Wiggins strengths/weaknesses - massive capacity but lacking punch so absolutely vital that pace was high at all times in the mountains to neutralise the pedal dancers.

Agreed.

Daz555

alan sherman wrote:

Now this seems an odd tactic to me - I'd have thought it better if the team operated more as a team time trial cycling around the front rider more often to share the wind and allow recovery periods - thus keeping the team more together and I'd have though overall faster.

It does make sense intitially but you you have to ask yourself if someone like Porte has the watts to drive along on the flats and if say Stannard has the power to weight to help on the climbs. Teams use their riders on the terrain where they shine. Much better to have the likes of Porte sat in other riders wheels all day so they arrive at the climb as fresh as Froome himself.

Tom Butcher

Teams still do through and off in echelons and the like - when just keeping the break in check there's no need as the intensity is that much lower so you can do longer turns - climbing as others have said not much point in porte doing through and off with Stannard. Setting up a sprint it's faster to burn riders as they can go flat out and you don't keep losing a bike length when riders swingoff.

rick_chasey

Since when did anyone do through and off in the peloton?

How would that even work properly?

If the peloton is really smashing sure, the people dedicated to the chase will take turns but through and off doesn't happen in the group unless it's cross winds, in which case it's a different kettle of fish.

Through and off is for small groups.

DeadCalm

Rick Chasey wrote:

Since when did anyone do through and off in the peloton?

How would that even work properly?

If the peloton is really smashing sure, the people dedicated to the chase will take turns but through and off doesn't happen in the group unless it's cross winds, in which case it's a different kettle of fish.

Through and off is for small groups.

The stage Sagan won. 15 riders at the front of the large group containing the sprinters were riding through and off for a good hour or so. I watched the moto just ahead of that group the entire time. It truly was a sight to behold.

But, yes, it is an exception. And no, they didn't catch the Canondale group who were riding in the more usual way. They were gaining time though on the flatter sections.

rick_chasey

Bizarre. Didn't see the stage but I can't remember seeing it in 15years of watching.

Can't have through and off with 150 riders.

The way it's done is the way it's been done for as long as I remember. It's not the death of anything.

Just because sky do stuff doesn't mean it's new...

DeadCalm

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bizarre. Didn't see the stage but I can't remember seeing it in 15years of watching.

Can't have through and off with 150 riders.

The way it's done is the way it's been done for as long as I remember. It's not the death of anything.

Just because sky do stuff doesn't mean it's new...

It definitely happened. Not 150 riders though. Probably closer to 50 or 60. And they were all strung out in a line behind the first 15 as the chase was so hard, which obviously made it easier. And if you think about it, it does make sense in that particular scenario. But I get what you're saying and agree. I don't think I'd seen it before with so many riders contributing and such a big bunch behind which is why it was so remarkable.

TheBigBean

It's definitely been done more than once in 15 years. How do two teams share the work of chasing?

It's not an effective strategy going uphill for the reasons already mentioned. It is also not so effective for sprinters' teams for similar reasons - you want the quickest guys available at the end.

jibberjim

Through and off is only efficient in the sense that it stops people getting a free ride, so it will always be used in situations where opposing teams want to go hard. When you're teammates, a pace line, with variable length turns depending on wind, power etc. is the more efficient way. Yes it burns out the person on the front, but that doesn't matter, it saves the people at the back.

rick_chasey

jibberjim wrote:

Through and off is only efficient in the sense that it stops people getting a free ride, so it will always be used in situations where opposing teams want to go hard. When you're teammates, a pace line, with variable length turns depending on wind, power etc. is the more efficient way. Yes it burns out the person on the front, but that doesn't matter, it saves the people at the back.

Quite.