Chain cleaning and lube problems

downhill paul

Hi all
Yesterday as I wasn't feeling up to a ride, I decided to fully clean my road bike. which also included cleaning and re lubing the chain. I ran the chain through a rag to remove as much muck as I could, then sprayed the chain with muc off chain cleaner, then scrubbed the chain with a stiff brush and hot water, then rinsed off with clean water.
after doing all that, I waited for the chain to dry and then I used a wet lube (should have been dry I think) making sure I didn't use too much and I wiped off any excess with a clean rag.
a few hours later I decided to go for a ride. I only covered about 40 miles, but when I got home and went to put my bike away, I ended up with a horrible black mark up my leg. how can a chain pick up so much dirt and grime from a 40 mile ride? I used halfords wet synthetic lube if that helps. I also have a bottle of their dry lube which I am going to try today after I have cleaned everything again.

Is this a problem with the lube I used or have I done something wrong?

dennisn

I'm guessing you rubbed up against the chain or crank. As for the black mark, well, that's what happens to lube on a chain. It turns black. As for your leg I'm pretty sure that amputation, to remove the mark, is the order of the day. Very, very dangerous, getting
lube on your leg.

downhill paul

The chain was completely clean before I lubed it. I could run it through my hands and not get any dirt or oil on my hands, that's how clean the chain was. the road I went for a ride on was pretty clean too, there was no dirt on the rest of my bike when I got back.
surely the chain shouldn't be full of black gunge after a 40 mile ride, especially after fully cleaning the chain.
should I ditch the wet lube and stick with a dry lube? I never ride in the wet anyway.

smidsy

It happens, more so with wet lube as it is a dirt magnet. Dry lube will be better, but it will still happen.

Roads are dirty, even when you do not think so.

Just clean and lube as necessary, no biggie.

downhill paul

I have heard that some people fully clean and re lube the chain after each ride, is that really necessary? if you ride every day you will be spending a fortune on cleaner and lube.

JayKosta

I don't use any water to clean my chain.
I first wipe the chain with a paper towel,
then use a dry brush to remove grit and particles,
then use a lube on the chain - so the lube seeps in the chain rollers,
and finally wipe off the excess lube with a paper towel.

The parts of the chain that need the lube are on the inside of the rollers. Lube on the outside of the chain doesn't do much good. And some of the lube on the inside parts will get squeezed out and make the outside of the chain dirty - just wipe if with a paper towel.

I only re-lube my chain after several 100's of miles riding in dry conditions.
If riding in rain or very dusty / dirty conditions, then re-lube sooner.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

downhill paul

How can you clean a chain properly without using a cleaner or a degreaser? I know which parts of the chain need lube and which parts don't. I just don't know why a clean and freshly re lubed chain ends up full of black gunge after a 40 mile ride.

dennisn

downhill paul wrote:

How can you clean a chain properly without using a cleaner or a degreaser? I know which parts of the chain need lube and which parts don't. I just don't know why a clean and freshly re lubed chain ends up full of black gunge after a 40 mile ride.

I think your definition of properly cleaning a chain is not shared by the vast majority of riders. Chains get black. Not sure anyone really knows why but they do. And in short order usually. Nothing you can do is my guess.

ct8282

Well I clean my chain and drive train at least every other ride and sometimes after a single ride if its longish (30+ miles) and I also wipe and polish my bike frame. This is only because I'm a clean freak when it comes to my expensive possessions and I thoroughly enjoy the process of cleaning my bike so I do not ever find it a chore. I was the same in my MTB days although that was much harder work.

My chain cleaning process is simple... Muc-Off chain doc, rinse, chain doc again, rinse, fill chain doc with water and run chain through several times and then repeat with water.

I have both a dry lube and wet lube. On Sunday I went out for 45 miles with a clean chain lubed with dry stuff. Got home and the chain was cleanish but I rubbed my finger over it and got covered in black gunk.
The weekend before I went out with a clean chain using wet lube (white lightning Epic Ride) and the chain came home much cleaner. I've always understood that wet lube gets dirtier but the guy in the shop said that Epic Ride is very clean and he was right. And it's a fantastic lube as well.

downhill paul

I think I should have changed to a dry lube sooner.
I never ride in the wet anyway, but I always used a wet lube on my mountain bike chain, mainly because I went on some pretty gritty and dirty trails and didn't want the lube to wash off.

dennisn

I'm beginning to think that because a freshly lubed chain usually turns black that clean freak riders see this as a bad thing and something to be avoided. I have my doubts that all that black stuff is bad. Isn't a lot of it just excess lube and not necessarily grit and grime? Why is black somehow bad? Seems that all chain lubes turn black(maybe even most all lubes - it's the nature of the beast?). It's lube and it sure isn't going to turn bright yellow or some color to match your bike. And it's sure not going to stay that nice light creamy tan color that it was in the bottle. :?

downhill paul

It doesn't go on black so how the hell can it turn black on a perfectly clean chain.

pinarellokid

all the wear happens inside the barrel sections .. which you never get fully clean.. so when you put fresh lube on it just washes out some of the old dirty lube..

you will never really get a chain fully clean

halfround

The chain goes black because the oil picks up dust and dirt as you go along. Wet lube is great in the winter when roads are wet most of the time it is a better lube and dust is keep down. In the summer dry lube just holds less dirt and dust which acts like grinding paste on your gears.
Give it a go do the same ride once with wet once with dry you should find it much cleaner on the dry.

If you give the chain a good wipe with a cloth or a diposable trade wipe after each ride, chain rings pulleys to degreaseing should not be needed.

dennisn

In doing a bit of reading on the Internet it would seem that ALL oils and lubes turn black with use. Some quicker than others. Lubes and oils turning black is NOT an indication of contamination. More an indication of it being used or in use. Or so seems to be the general thinking these days.

dennisn

I quote from the back of a bottle of Finish Line Ceramic Wet Chain Lube. "The white ceramic particles may turn grey or black over time. This discoloration is normal and will not compromise performance."
So, how and or why does a bottle of very lightly tan colored liquid turn black? I'm not really sure but the fact that it does and that it turning black DOESN'T mean it's contaminated should reassure even the most anal of clean freaks, or not.

keef66

pinarellokid wrote:

all the wear happens inside the barrel sections .. which you never get fully clean.. so when you put fresh lube on it just washes out some of the old dirty lube..

you will never really get a chain fully clean

^ This.

Unless you immerse the thing in solvent in an ultrasonic bath you're never going to get it spotlessly clean, certainly not internally. Even when I've gone to the trouble of removing the chain and shaking it in successive batches of white spirit there's always some black gunk being flushed out by the first lot of lube. Now I just wipe off the worst of the muck, lubricate each roller sparingly, spin the cranks a few times then wipe again.

desweller

keef66 wrote:

pinarellokid wrote:

all the wear happens inside the barrel sections .. which you never get fully clean.. so when you put fresh lube on it just washes out some of the old dirty lube..

you will never really get a chain fully clean

^ This.

Unless you immerse the thing in solvent in an ultrasonic bath you're never going to get it spotlessly clean, certainly not internally. Even when I've gone to the trouble of removing the chain and shaking it in successive batches of white spirit there's always some black gunk being flushed out by the first lot of lube. Now I just wipe off the worst of the muck, lubricate each roller sparingly, spin the cranks a few times then wipe again.

And if you do this you're creating a tricky problem for yourself; air pockets in the rollers and plates. Unless you warm your chain and oil to lower the viscosity, or use a vacuum chamber, you'll not get as good penetration with the oil after you've washed it this way.

dennisn

keef66 wrote:

pinarellokid wrote:

all the wear happens inside the barrel sections .. which you never get fully clean.. so when you put fresh lube on it just washes out some of the old dirty lube..

you will never really get a chain fully clean

^ This.

Unless you immerse the thing in solvent in an ultrasonic bath you're never going to get it spotlessly clean, certainly not internally. Even when I've gone to the trouble of removing the chain and shaking it in successive batches of white spirit there's always some black gunk being flushed out by the first lot of lube. Now I just wipe off the worst of the muck, lubricate each roller sparingly, spin the cranks a few times then wipe again.

I have ask who says this "black gunk", as people call it, is bad? From the sounds of it it seems that people assume that ANY black coloration or material is a bad thing, to be removed ASAP. When in reality removing it is mostly removing lubricant and that's a really bad thing. Kind of funny how the guys who are obsessed with cleaning chains are the ones doing, in theory, the worst possible thing to said chain.

TheRealGuybrush

To be honest, if your cleaning your bike every other ride (which is great by the way) then just use a dry lube all year round? That way it won't pick up as much dirt, and you don't need to worry about it washing away because your re-lubing after every other ride.

ct8282

dennisn wrote:

keef66 wrote:

pinarellokid wrote:

all the wear happens inside the barrel sections .. which you never get fully clean.. so when you put fresh lube on it just washes out some of the old dirty lube..

you will never really get a chain fully clean

^ This.

Unless you immerse the thing in solvent in an ultrasonic bath you're never going to get it spotlessly clean, certainly not internally. Even when I've gone to the trouble of removing the chain and shaking it in successive batches of white spirit there's always some black gunk being flushed out by the first lot of lube. Now I just wipe off the worst of the muck, lubricate each roller sparingly, spin the cranks a few times then wipe again.

I have ask who says this "black gunk", as people call it, is bad? From the sounds of it it seems that people assume that ANY black coloration or material is a bad thing, to be removed ASAP. When in reality removing it is mostly removing lubricant and that's a really bad thing. Kind of funny how the guys who are obsessed with cleaning chains are the ones doing, in theory, the worst possible thing to said chain.

Sorry but this may just be a little bit rubbish. Once I have ridden my bike and allowed the black stuff to build up I can easily hear how the chain has a more obvious grinding noise against the teeth of the chain rings. This is the grit that is held in the black paste doing its best to slowly wear away my precious metal. Once I clean my chain, as I do regularly, and then properly lube it everything runs much more quietly and smoothly, gear changes are quicker and more efficient and everything works just that much better.

Cleaning a chain every single day and then properly lubing it wouldn't be a bad idea at all. It would indeed be unnecessary and would cost a small fortune in oil and cleaning products, but you can't claim it would be 'the worst possible thing'. You state that 'in reality removing it (ANY black colouration) is mostly removing lubricant and that's a really bad thing'. Well, yeah, chain cleaner will remove dirt and old lubricant that is now contaminated. That's the point my friend. Guess what, that's why we then re lube it.

dennisn

ct8282 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

keef66 wrote:

pinarellokid wrote:

all the wear happens inside the barrel sections .. which you never get fully clean.. so when you put fresh lube on it just washes out some of the old dirty lube..

you will never really get a chain fully clean

^ This.

Unless you immerse the thing in solvent in an ultrasonic bath you're never going to get it spotlessly clean, certainly not internally. Even when I've gone to the trouble of removing the chain and shaking it in successive batches of white spirit there's always some black gunk being flushed out by the first lot of lube. Now I just wipe off the worst of the muck, lubricate each roller sparingly, spin the cranks a few times then wipe again.

I have ask who says this "black gunk", as people call it, is bad? From the sounds of it it seems that people assume that ANY black coloration or material is a bad thing, to be removed ASAP. When in reality removing it is mostly removing lubricant and that's a really bad thing. Kind of funny how the guys who are obsessed with cleaning chains are the ones doing, in theory, the worst possible thing to said chain.

Sorry but this may just be a little bit rubbish. Once I have ridden my bike and allowed the black stuff to build up I can easily hear how the chain has a more obvious grinding noise against the teeth of the chain rings. This is the grit that is held in the black paste doing its best to slowly wear away my precious metal. Once I clean my chain, as I do regularly, and then properly lube it everything runs much more quietly and smoothly, gear changes are quicker and more efficient and everything works just that much better.

Cleaning a chain every single day and then properly lubing it wouldn't be a bad idea at all. It would indeed be unnecessary and would cost a small fortune in oil and cleaning products, but you can't claim it would be 'the worst possible thing'. You state that 'in reality removing it (ANY black colouration) is mostly removing lubricant and that's a really bad thing'. Well, yeah, chain cleaner will remove dirt and old lubricant that is now contaminated. That's the point my friend. Guess what, that's why we then re lube it.

In all truth I find that I really don't care if people want to clean their chain every half hour of every day. They can take it apart pin by pin if they want to. Although THAT I would have to consider as being very creepy.
Every lube I have ever used on a chain has turned black and turned black very quickly. Within 10 miles of riding if I had to guess. It's the nature of lubricants. At least as far as I can determine, this is the present "conventional wisdom". I couldn't find any dissenting opinions out there. So yes, when you wipe off that "black gunk" it's lubricant for the most part.
I think it's the black thing that people misinterpret. Black is "dirty". No way it can be clean. People get something black on them or their clothes and that's dirty. Why should a chain be any different?
I'm betting that if you put some lube(any lube) on a super clean chain(if there is such a thing) and run it in a sterile chamber that you would end up with "black gunk" sort of covering it. Just like it would be had you went for a ride.
Has anyone out there ever went for a ride and NOT had this, so called, "black gunk" appear?

mididoctors

DesWeller wrote:

keef66 wrote:

pinarellokid wrote:

all the wear happens inside the barrel sections .. which you never get fully clean.. so when you put fresh lube on it just washes out some of the old dirty lube..

you will never really get a chain fully clean

^ This.

Unless you immerse the thing in solvent in an ultrasonic bath you're never going to get it spotlessly clean, certainly not internally. Even when I've gone to the trouble of removing the chain and shaking it in successive batches of white spirit there's always some black gunk being flushed out by the first lot of lube. Now I just wipe off the worst of the muck, lubricate each roller sparingly, spin the cranks a few times then wipe again.

And if you do this you're creating a tricky problem for yourself; air pockets in the rollers and plates. Unless you warm your chain and oil to lower the viscosity, or use a vacuum chamber, you'll not get as good penetration with the oil after you've washed it this way.

thats interesting never heard that before

a ultrasonic bath heats up the chain(almost too hot to hold). I use a ultrasonic bath...great bit of kit

not sure how these airpockets are known about or are detectable as increased wear? maybe my chains are not hot enough and I am ruining them. I have no anecdotal evidence of increased wear?

ct8282

dennisn wrote:

ct8282 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

keef66 wrote:

pinarellokid wrote:

all the wear happens inside the barrel sections .. which you never get fully clean.. so when you put fresh lube on it just washes out some of the old dirty lube..

you will never really get a chain fully clean

^ This.

Unless you immerse the thing in solvent in an ultrasonic bath you're never going to get it spotlessly clean, certainly not internally. Even when I've gone to the trouble of removing the chain and shaking it in successive batches of white spirit there's always some black gunk being flushed out by the first lot of lube. Now I just wipe off the worst of the muck, lubricate each roller sparingly, spin the cranks a few times then wipe again.

I have ask who says this "black gunk", as people call it, is bad? From the sounds of it it seems that people assume that ANY black coloration or material is a bad thing, to be removed ASAP. When in reality removing it is mostly removing lubricant and that's a really bad thing. Kind of funny how the guys who are obsessed with cleaning chains are the ones doing, in theory, the worst possible thing to said chain.

Sorry but this may just be a little bit rubbish. Once I have ridden my bike and allowed the black stuff to build up I can easily hear how the chain has a more obvious grinding noise against the teeth of the chain rings. This is the grit that is held in the black paste doing its best to slowly wear away my precious metal. Once I clean my chain, as I do regularly, and then properly lube it everything runs much more quietly and smoothly, gear changes are quicker and more efficient and everything works just that much better.

Cleaning a chain every single day and then properly lubing it wouldn't be a bad idea at all. It would indeed be unnecessary and would cost a small fortune in oil and cleaning products, but you can't claim it would be 'the worst possible thing'. You state that 'in reality removing it (ANY black colouration) is mostly removing lubricant and that's a really bad thing'. Well, yeah, chain cleaner will remove dirt and old lubricant that is now contaminated. That's the point my friend. Guess what, that's why we then re lube it.

In all truth I find that I really don't care if people want to clean their chain every half hour of every day. They can take it apart pin by pin if they want to. Although THAT I would have to consider as being very creepy.
Every lube I have ever used on a chain has turned black and turned black very quickly. Within 10 miles of riding if I had to guess. It's the nature of lubricants. At least as far as I can determine, this is the present "conventional wisdom". I couldn't find any dissenting opinions out there. So yes, when you wipe off that "black gunk" it's lubricant for the most part.
I think it's the black thing that people misinterpret. Black is "dirty". No way it can be clean. People get something black on them or their clothes and that's dirty. Why should a chain be any different?
I'm betting that if you put some lube(any lube) on a super clean chain(if there is such a thing) and run it in a sterile chamber that you would end up with "black gunk" sort of covering it. Just like it would be had you went for a ride.
Has anyone out there ever went for a ride and NOT had this, so called, "black gunk" appear?

I'm not disputing any of that, but your statement earlier about it being 'funny how the guys who are obsessed with cleaning chains are the ones doing, in theory, the worst possible thing to said chain' is complete and utter tosh.

I'm not saying that the black gunk is dirty, but I bet you a million quid that my drive chain would outlive yours under the same riding conditions and distance. Up to you if you never want to clean yours, or clean it every half hour. I do mine after every other ride or after a single long ride, for 2 reasons; 1. I enjoy looking after my bike. It cost me a lot of money and I am very protective of my possessions. (My car is 3 years old and still looks almost show room condition, and that is a lot of work, certainly more than my bike), and 2. The bike runs a lot better when it is clean, correctly greased and maintained, and the drive train is clean and properly lubed.

In my mind those 2 reasons justify the 10 to 15 mins it takes me to clean and lube my chain.

dennisn

downhill paul wrote:

The chain was completely clean before I lubed it. I could run it through my hands and not get any dirt or oil on my hands, that's how clean the chain was. the road I went for a ride on was pretty clean too, there was no dirt on the rest of my bike when I got back.
surely the chain shouldn't be full of black gunge after a 40 mile ride, especially after fully cleaning the chain.
should I ditch the wet lube and stick with a dry lube? I never ride in the wet anyway.

Don't mean to harp on a point but here the OP clearly points out that black means dirty. At least to him. He saw black and dirty was the first thing that entered his mind. He never considered that, as a general rule, all lubes turn black with use and never considered that it might be a meaningless color change. Can't say as I blame him for not looking further into what was happening. I never looked into why always black on a chain but what I've just found out sure changes my impressions of lubing a bicycle chain.

ct8282

dennisn wrote:

downhill paul wrote:

The chain was completely clean before I lubed it. I could run it through my hands and not get any dirt or oil on my hands, that's how clean the chain was. the road I went for a ride on was pretty clean too, there was no dirt on the rest of my bike when I got back.
surely the chain shouldn't be full of black gunge after a 40 mile ride, especially after fully cleaning the chain.
should I ditch the wet lube and stick with a dry lube? I never ride in the wet anyway.

Don't mean to harp on a point but here the OP clearly points out that black means dirty. At least to him. He saw black and dirty was the first thing that entered his mind. He never considered that, as a general rule, all lubes turn black with use and never considered that it might be a meaningless color change. Can't say as I blame him for not looking further into what was happening. I never looked into why always black on a chain but what I've just found out sure changes my impressions of lubing a bicycle chain.

Dont mean to harp on a point but this is irrelevant. Your statement about those obsessed with cleaning their chain are doing the worst thing to said chain is complete and utter bollox. Cleaning a chain every day and lubing properly is in fact the best thing you could do to it. Unnecessary maybe, but definitely not the worst thing you can do to it.

dennisn

ct8282 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

downhill paul wrote:

The chain was completely clean before I lubed it. I could run it through my hands and not get any dirt or oil on my hands, that's how clean the chain was. the road I went for a ride on was pretty clean too, there was no dirt on the rest of my bike when I got back.
surely the chain shouldn't be full of black gunge after a 40 mile ride, especially after fully cleaning the chain.
should I ditch the wet lube and stick with a dry lube? I never ride in the wet anyway.

Don't mean to harp on a point but here the OP clearly points out that black means dirty. At least to him. He saw black and dirty was the first thing that entered his mind. He never considered that, as a general rule, all lubes turn black with use and never considered that it might be a meaningless color change. Can't say as I blame him for not looking further into what was happening. I never looked into why always black on a chain but what I've just found out sure changes my impressions of lubing a bicycle chain.

Dont mean to harp on a point but this is irrelevant. Your statement about those obsessed with cleaning their chain are doing the worst thing to said chain is complete and utter bollox. Cleaning a chain every day and lubing properly is in fact the best thing you could do to it. Unnecessary maybe, but definitely not the worst thing you can do to it.

My impressions of chains(key word impressions) is that you will never be able to lube one as well as the "factory". That being the reason I made the comment about "...worst thing....". The factory doesn't put whatever it is on chains for looks and why would they put something on only to have someone wash it off. I think you'll find that chain makers know a little bit more than you and I about how a chain should be lubed and a few of them even tell you not to clean a new chain. It's the misinformed people out there to whom black is bad, new chains need cleaning, expensive potions in fancy bottles are are the ONLY way to go, and using all manner of solvents is a must that don't know what is happening.
So yes, their methods of trying to strip and reapply lube everyday is, to me, complete and utter bullsh*t, or as you say bollox. You went as far as saying "unnecessary", and that's true. I might go a bit farther and say mindless. These people bought chain cleaning machines because someone manufactured them, told them that they must have one, and out they went to plunk down their money. If that not at the very least a bad reason to do something(exactly what advertisers want you to) then what is?

ct8282

Yawn.

binkybike

pinarellokid wrote:

all the wear happens inside the barrel sections .. which you never get fully clean.. so when you put fresh lube on it just washes out some of the old dirty lube..

you will never really get a chain fully clean

this

drlodge

binkybike wrote:

pinarellokid wrote:

all the wear happens inside the barrel sections .. which you never get fully clean.. so when you put fresh lube on it just washes out some of the old dirty lube..

you will never really get a chain fully clean

this

Yes, this!
- You can never get a chain fully clean, therefore new lube will wash out old lube and dirt so the "black" stuff thats inside the chain will quickly seep out, making your clean chain black quite quickly again. I would think the "black" is metal particles arnd grime mixed in with the lube, in a similar way that engine oil turns black (although that is subject to heat and combustion remnants).
- I don't think cleaning a chain frequently is a bad thing, even if you used petrol to strip the chain clean, a proper application of lube will get in where the petrol got in and relube the "bare" parts.
- Personally I don't think frequent "deep cleaning" of the chain is necessary. I do however frequently clean the chain with a rag+WD40 or GT85 to wpie it clean and then apply my now favorite ProGold ProLink lube, spin the cranks backwards plenty and then wipe off the excess. With this lube, the chain seems to wipe clean pretty well. And using this approach, the new lube washes out most of the old lube and helps keep it clean.

fsman

Get a proper chain cleaner unit. Fill it with degreaser (any bike shop/web site).
Or you could find a janitor supplier and by some Virosol. Dilute 1:10 for chain cleaning or if you are careful 50:50.

Put it in a spray at 100:1 to clean your bike like muc-off.

It is strong stuff, so you need to wash off your bike after. I got about 5l for about £8 from my local window cleaner supplier.