the Police

mamba80

Should they be disbanded and reformed, to say a national force instead of the 1800's throw back we ve today?
Public trust is at an all time low and time and time again we ve examples of police corruption and /or incompetance, not too mention that they seem to be a force that responds rather than pre empts.

The savings alone in having a national force - think of ALL the chief constables, HQ's and all those back office staff we could save on? - would mean we could bring back some decent road policing, instead of the reliance we ve now got on camera's alone - great but always after the event!

We could take the oppertunity to have national crime units, borderless traffic patrols and a national policing policy - why should devon be policed differently from Somerset? no doubt some of this happens already but how much easier if it were one force?

napoleond

Wouldn't save much, if anything but would cost a fortune restructuring. Furthermore due to different areas having very different problems there'd still be regional management like there is now. So pointless.
We already have national based serious and organised crime group, and regional motorway groups.

What has triggered this?

capt_slog

NapoleonD wrote:

What has triggered this?

Sting was on the telly.

daviesee

They disbanded in 1986.

peat

If you ask me, the straw that broke the camel's back was when they swapped traditional helmets/hats for baseball caps.

napoleond

Peat wrote:

If you ask me, the straw that broke the camel's back was when they swapped traditional helmets/hats for baseball caps.

Still wear helmets. Mainly because they are helmets.

ballysmate

Peat wrote:

If you ask me, the straw that broke the camel's back was when they swapped traditional helmets/hats for baseball caps.

I think you'll find they have to wear many hats, figuratively and actually.

pinno

Legalise drugs for a start - that would free the police up to actually do their job.
In Scotland it costs 47k a year to put an addict on methadone. Pharmacies get 110k per year for dispensing the stuff. I work with addicts and some have been on methadone scripts for years. it does not work. in France, it takes 3 weeks to get an addict off heroin using morphine.
Pay the Afghanis (who can't grow much else) for their opium and open a legitimate market as there is a world shortage of medicinal morphine and it would build the bridges with the Afghanis that we have failed to build with our chronicly ill-conceived military intervention.
It will also cut the link with other illegal acts and organised crime.
We could also stop the proliferation of 'legal highs' brought about because the holier than thou brigade want to make everything illegal. Emergency personnel struggle to deal with cases because they have no idea what the patient has been taking, whereas traditionally, symptoms were consistent.
Anyway, in Holland immediately after legalisation, user rates of 'hard' drugs went quickly up to 6% and then fell to its 'natural level' of 4% within 18 months. There is no evidence that it wouldn't happen here.
A hullavalot of crime is connected with addiction, we could cut down on that too.
Thats my twopence worth.

napoleond

That's a law issue, not to do with nationalising police...

tiredofwhiners

The problem with a national police force is thats even less likely to be respected - just another part of the civil service whose job it is to f*ck up everything, cost a fortune and retire on gold plated, unaffordable, inflation proof pensions.

Better going the opposite way with local bobbies highly visible in a given area and known to the public, rather than an extra from robocop.

solosuperia

What I find frightening is an article in "Private Eye" entitled "What Katie Didn't Do".
To summarise Katie broke up with her boyfriend, a copper with Thames Valley!!!!!!
Since:-
She has been breathalysed around 70 times, 54 in one year.... Always negative result.
Reported to the Crown Prosecution Service for a series of alleged motoring offences.
Served with fixed penalty notices for alleged motoring offences.
Served with disorder penalty notices for offences such as wasting police time
Cautioned for alleged assault.
Subjected to drug and other searches.
And had her car seized eight times.
She has never been convicted of any crime
If you get the chance just read the full article in the Private Eye.

napoleond

Damn. That means all of the police are corrupt, not just a handful. At least that will all stop if the force was nationalised.

Edit: in order to be cautioned for an offence you have to have admitted it...

ballysmate

tiredofwhiners wrote:

The problem with a national police force is thats even less likely to be respected - just another part of the civil service whose job it is to f*ck up everything, cost a fortune and retire on gold plated, unaffordable, inflation proof pensions.

Better going the opposite way with local bobbies highly visible in a given area and known to the public, rather than an extra from robocop.

Some people really live in the past, looking for bobbies on every street corner.
From HO figures 2012 there are 102,000 Constables out of a total strength of 134,000 in England and Wales with a population of around 55,000,000. ie A PC for every 550 of us , give or take. This includes all CID, specialist roles such as dogs and dedicated firearms units, officers attending courts etc, which when taken into account make the ratio worse.
Now the relieving margin to provide 24 hour cover is around 5.8.
So to the ratio becomes 1PC for every 3200 of us.
So for a city like Stoke on Trent with a population of 250.000 you would get about 75 officer posts. For the Metropolitan London area it is 4700 for a population of over 15,000,000. Not many is it? I think the Met's total strength is only around 28,000, so they would find even this level of cover impossible to maintain.
These broad figures are just to illustrate how thinly manpower is stretched and I accept that they will not show accurately what is happening on the street. I am just trying to show how much extra manpower and that means funding would be needed to put bobbies back on the beat in the numbers people want.

As regards looking like an extra from Robocop, yes, the police have changed in appearance over the last 3 decades. Look at the footage of the miners' strike and the Tottenham riots and you will see officers with blue uniform, traditional helmets and dustbin lids. They were caught behind the times. The uniform and equipment has evolved to reflect the needs and threats of today.

rhext

So, the answer to crime is to put bobbies back on the beat in their nice fluourescent jackets is it?

Ask yourself this: when was the last time you actually saw a crime (not talking about the odd speeding offence, we could use more cameras to get those if as a society we cared enough)? And if you're not seeing them, then neither would the bobbies. So if we were to take our already thinly spread police force and stick them all back on the beat, who would be dealing with all the crime committed in the places where they're not? I suppose it might have a deterrent effect in some of the more densely populated urban areas, but how on earth do you think we could afford to deploy enough bobbies to middle-class suburban estates - the places where the crooks would think 'field day, lads, time to go get some high-tech electronics and, in the unlikely event that a copper happens along, the look-out will see them three streets away and text us so we can make ourselves scarce'.

solosuperia

A link to the article I mentioned earlier "What Katie didn't do".......
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.p ... issue=1344

fast as fupp

tiredofwhiners wrote:

The problem with a national police force is thats even less likely to be respected - just another part of the civil service whose job it is to f*ck up everything, cost a fortune and retire on gold plated, unaffordable, inflation proof pensions.

Better going the opposite way with local bobbies highly visible in a given area and known to the public, rather than an extra from robocop.

tell us more about these 'gold plated' pensions, tory boy?

sungod

i'd cut the number of mps, we have far too many relative to the size of the population

use the money to add police, on bikes

fewer politicians, more police, slightly safer roads

pure win

Lookyhere

My experience of the Police is that they are arrogant, out of touch and see themselves as our masters not as public servants - they investigate the crimes THEY want to go for and see them selves as above the law - from hillsbrough to the summary executions of criminal suspects.
How many times do they get caught with their trousers down, then retire with a "no further action" ? they even get to investigate themselves wtf !
there are of course good cops with a genuine desire to make thinks better but they soon find themselves part of the corrupt elite
like the MP's they need major reform.

I

gavbarron

Lookyhere wrote:

My experience of the Police is that they are arrogant, out of touch and see themselves as our masters not as public servants - they investigate the crimes THEY want to go for and see them selves as above the law - from hillsbrough to the summary executions of criminal suspects.
How many times do they get caught with their trousers down, then retire with a "no further action" ? they even get to investigate themselves wtf !
there are of course good cops with a genuine desire to make thinks better but they soon find themselves part of the corrupt elite
like the MP's they need major reform.

I

Wow what ignorant sweeping drivel Out of over 130000 personnel, the small percentile that have been caught or penalised are usually high ranking arses yet you use them as a representative sample for the entire force. Generally those who see 'all' police officers as arrogant, out of touch, blah blah are usually those finding themselves falling foul of the law. I can only assume you read the Daily Mail or are a moron.

gavbarron

Stanley222 wrote:

CPS decide there is no realistic chance of a conviction then therefore there is no point investigating further - this however gets explained to the 'victim'

CPS are a waste of time and as with most things nowadays they are obsessed with the figures. A typical case won't go to court unless the chance of conviction is 90 odd percent! No wonder people walk free for so many crimes and there is little respect for the law, because there is no real risk of punishment and as such no fear.
The real issues and problems today aren't with the Police but rather with the judicial system and the ease of which punishments can be avoided

spen666

NapoleonD wrote:

Damn. That means all of the police are corrupt, not just a handful. At least that will all stop if the force was nationalised.

Edit: in order to be cautioned for an offence you have to have admitted it...

I wondered why Private Eye appeared to gloss over that

4kicks

Im not surprised the UK Police force is so excrable, most of them seem to spend all their time on Bikeradar posting tosh.

gavbarron

How do you know which are coppers? I'd better watch what I say in future. And excrable is a little harsh

gavbarron

Another point for all the police haters, I'm sure you all think they are useless, arrogant, sh1t, don't do their job, and so on but I defy any one of you not to dial 999 when you are burgled, mugged, conned...

Love them or hate them almost all of us will need them at some point and son will be glad they are there. Go to some other countries where the police truly are corrupt and disinterested and you may not take such a dim view.

To clarify, I am not in, nor connected to the police. I do however travel all over the world with my job and have seen many shocking and laughable law enforcement agencies

mamba80

gavbarron wrote:

Another point for all the police haters, I'm sure you all think they are useless, arrogant, sh1t, don't do their job, and so on but I defy any one of you not to dial 999 when you are burgled, mugged, conned...

True... like when i was attacked and had my bike stolen (returned later) Police "nothing we can do - there were 2 witnesses - and in anycase he might see you later on and drive you over"
OR a friend attacked by her ex partner - she was the one who ended up in a cell, as they believed him and not her teenage boys (well they might have but couldnt be asked to interview them... not until after they arrested her... the easy target)
OR my gf driven of the road and despite police denials that there were no road cameras, only investigated when she put in a compliant.
My 79yo mum, shed broken into, couldnt even be bothered to come and see her (or make the follow up call) despite her being very distressed.
Summary executions? shooting dead unarmed suspects - theres been a few of those.

Phoning the police for anything short of serious violence/robbery is a complete and utter waste of time.... they are more interested in solving "statistics" (by whatever means) then serving their public.

Police need to be reformed and re organised, like it or not they ve out grown their usefulness.
Some one said its a bad idea...why? what we ve got is unaffordable and public trust at an all time low.

gavbarron

That's unfortunate (understatement) but not everyone's experience. I struggle to see how a comprehensive restructure of the Police would improve things. Two key ways forward would be to get rid of government targets which lead towards the chasing of numbers/statistics rather than criminal, and also getting rid of the new commissioners who have only been introduced to allow the hierarchy to travel up to government and eventually be run centrally which I don't see as a good idea

bdu98252

I am often amazed that the police are not more corrupt as lets face it the job description would facilitate it. In any single day they are placed in scenarios predominately with the dregs of society and in a position of power. They spend 10 minutes of the day speaking to the victims and the rest of the day chasing morons. On a positive note I was driving back in the ealry hours from Gatwick and got to the dirt track my house is on only to be stopped by the police as there have been a lot of rural break ins recently in Cumbria. Had a nice chat about the tour and went on my way. My shed contents might even be safer because of their actions.

There is only so many times you can nick bob the knob for shoplifting in the local highstreet without losing interest or caring. For their patience I salute them.

solosuperia

Edit: in order to be cautioned for an offence you have to have admitted it...

I didn't realise this...... I guess I was being a bit naive when I read the article.
So basically the implication is that the girl probably warrented the attention she got from the local police.

napoleond

SoloSuperia wrote:

Edit: in order to be cautioned for an offence you have to have admitted it...

I didn't realise this...... I guess I was being a bit naive when I read the article.
So basically the implication is that the girl probably warrented the attention she got from the local police.

On that occasion yes, I have no idea about the others. On the face of it it sounds rather excessive but without knowing the facts...

spen666

4kicks wrote:

Im not surprised the UK Police force is so excrable, most of them seem to spend all their time on Bikeradar posting tosh.

Please tell what is the UK Police Force you think is so excrable?

Apart from limited organisations like the Transport Police, there is not a UK Police Force