Regulation of Sportives
Comments
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For what it's worth, I don't think regulation is the way to handle it.Slowbike wrote:
As DJM501 asks - how is regulation going to make the rider obey the highway code?pkripper wrote:djm501 wrote:Sportives require you to obey the rules of the road and that should be adhered to
There's a requirement to, however, in my experience it's clearly not getting through. And if it takes regulation for that, then so be it.
Regulation will be all about form filling and payments - form filling for the health & safety "risks", checking other events in the same area and the payments will be to "administer" the forms. All it will do is add a cost to the organisers (then passed on to the riders/sponsors).
As I said above - I believe some events already do consult the local council & police force - it was mentioned in the UKCE New Forest event. The UKCE/Wiggle French sportives close roads in Dover to get riders from the carpark to the ferry port - you cannot do that without the agreement of the local authorities.
The correct approach, IMHO, would be to stick a few unmarked patrol cars into the Hill on Sunday mornings and have then adopt a "name and shame, prosecute if possible" approach. They'd have an absolute field day. Simply by enforcing "You should never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends"* they'd pull a continuous stream, and with the right publicity it might just get some people to change their behaviour. Were the police to get all nasty and start enforcing really draconian stuff such as the side of the road on which we ride/drive, or priority at junctions, then I suspect they'd collapse through over-work.
* Section 66 of the Highway Code.Mangeur0 -
Slowbike wrote:
If someone organised a classic tractor rally/procession without any notification, clogged up the network for a day (and charged everyone £25 a pop to drive) and you were trying to get somewhere in your car, i'm sure you'd get a bit peev'ed too.0 -
The Highway Code is not law and I'm not aware of any law which states that. Indeed the highway code itself states that "should" is advisory and "must" is where there is a law to back it up.0
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Hence why I said "name and shame" if unable to prosecute. The letter of the law might allow for gaggles of cyclists to completely block roads, but that doesn't mean to say it's not seriously anti-social. Couple that with the issue of the side of the road on which we ride / drive, and I really don't think the police would have any trouble getting a few prosecutions out of it.markhewitt1978 wrote:The Highway Code is not law and I'm not aware of any law which states that. Indeed the highway code itself states that "should" is advisory and "must" is where there is a law to back it up.Mangeur0 -
The police have no powers to "name and shame" people; and certainly not if no offence has been committed. The police's job is to enforce the law, not to make it up as they go along - despite appearances to the contrary.0
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Personally I'd prefer it if the police were to get all draconian on the motorists - it is they who cause the vast majority of KSI's on the road. And it is they who commit, as has been observed above indirectly, the majority of actual breaches of the law - speeding, driving without due care and attention and yes, failing to stop at traffic lights.0
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What about the whole driving on the left thing? I didn't realise that one was optional.markhewitt1978 wrote:The police have no powers to "name and shame" people; and certainly not if no offence has been committed. The police's job is to enforce the law, not to make it up as they go along - despite appearances to the contrary.Mangeur0 -
Peat wrote:Slowbike wrote:
If someone organised a classic tractor rally/procession without any notification, clogged up the network for a day (and charged everyone £25 a pop to drive) and you were trying to get somewhere in your car, i'm sure you'd get a bit peev'ed too.
Well - what actually happens is that someone organises an event - and then either closes roads and/or the traffic associated with that event clogs up the roads for miles around. Do I get peeved? Sometimes, although usually it's just a bit miffed as I can usually work a way around it ...
There's a couple of events every year that when they occur, work let the staff leave early as the traffic congestion is notorious.
So why should that be any different to a sportive? The roads are getting clogged up for a few hours and someone is making money out of it ...
I do think that Sportive organisers do need to be careful as organising adjacent sportives on similar routes are going to cause an issue as well as frequent rides in the same area - which is I assume what's happening with Box Hill ?0 -
Correct assumption. The problem on Box Hill and certain parts of the surrounding area is that it's not a couple of events every year, it's events most Sundays from mid spring to the end of September, coupled with the Sunday morning West London (which is a short ride away) exodus plus those local riders who congregate in the area. Numbers reach herd-mentality critical mass on a very regular basis, and that's what's causing the problems.Slowbike wrote:someone organises an event - and then either closes roads and/or the traffic associated with that event clogs up the roads for miles around. Do I get peeved? Sometimes, although usually it's just a bit miffed as I can usually work a way around it ...
There's a couple of events every year that when they occur, work let the staff leave early as the traffic congestion is notorious.
So why should that be any different to a sportive? The roads are getting clogged up for a few hours and someone is making money out of it ...
I do think that Sportive organisers do need to be careful as organising adjacent sportives on similar routes are going to cause an issue as well as frequent rides in the same area - which is I assume what's happening with Box Hill ?Mangeur0 -
AchillesLeftKnee wrote:Correct assumption. The problem on Box Hill and certain parts of the surrounding area is that it's not a couple of events every year, it's events most Sundays from mid spring to the end of September, coupled with the Sunday morning West London (which is a short ride away) exodus plus those local riders who congregate in the area. Numbers reach herd-mentality critical mass on a very regular basis, and that's what's causing the problems.
Sounds like a good idea to close the road to through traffic on weekends to enable cyclists to use the road in safety.0 -
So there's more cyclists than motorists on one hill in the whole country each Sunday morning and they are causing a little bit of a hold up for a few drivers! And there's cyclists moaning about it!
Sounds like the easiest thing to do with Box Hill would be to make it cyclists only from the bottom of the hill to the Cafe on Sundays. Motorists could either walk up, bring a bike or add 10 mins to thier journey and drive in to the top from the other direction.
Why should motorists always expect to be put first?0 -
I drove up Box Hill this morning as needed to drop a bike box off at Cycles Dauphin. Given it was 11am on a Tuesday morning, I still passed around 25 cyclists on the way.
A few things to get off my chest.
Firstly, Box Hill really isn't that exciting. It's not even a particularly difficult climb. I wonder if part of the problem is that some kind of 'hype' is being built up about it by press and events (plus the Olympics) which is driving larger numbers there going forward.
It's a bit like Richmond Park, in a way. Because apps like Strava encourage competition, Richmond Park and Box Hill become 'benchmarks' for cyclists in the South-East to test themselves against, and so it becomes a self-perpetuating popular destination.
There are plenty of better hills to test yourself against, but people ignore those because Box Hill is the most popular.
Onto the topic itself; I actually have quite a degree of sympathy for local residents. I also live near the route of L2B and as others have said it does completely cut you off for the day. Equally, I'm on the route for the Evans King of the Downs, plus various other sportives. Every weekend sees some organised event.
This is all great, but I wonder if in actual fact we'd be better off having fewer, but BIGGER events (e.g. merging sportives) as that way you get fewer days of disruption, local authorities would probably offer more support (policing, closed roads etc).0 -
Brakeless wrote:
Why should motorists always expect to be put first?
Nail on the head. It's only because motorists expect to be put first at all times they are shocked when for one isolated case they aren't. And I speak as a motorist here.0 -
Brakeless wrote:Why should motorists always expect to be put first?
You're missing the point. These people live there. If every time you drove out of your house you had to constantly stop/start/pull-in/pull-out/over-take to weave past groups of cyclists I can see how it might be quite intimidating and nervous. You can't expect people who live at the top of Box Hill to park at the bottom and walk up.0 -
barrybridges wrote:You're missing the point. These people live there. If every time you drove out of your house you had to constantly stop/start/pull-in/pull-out/over-take to weave past groups of cyclists I can see how it might be quite intimidating and nervous. You can't expect people who live at the top of Box Hill to park at the bottom and walk up.
People have to live on busy roads all over the country. Why should they have to cycle with thousands of cars closely passing them all the time. Should they have to walk their bike to a quiet road first?0 -
But isn't the Box Hill climb National Trust property ... ? If so NT could control it.0
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Slowbike wrote:But isn't the Box Hill climb National Trust property ... ? If so NT could control it.
Depends on the status of the road? Is it a public highway?0 -
No idea!markhewitt1978 wrote:Slowbike wrote:But isn't the Box Hill climb National Trust property ... ? If so NT could control it.
Depends on the status of the road? Is it a public highway?0 -
barrybridges wrote:Brakeless wrote:Why should motorists always expect to be put first?
You're missing the point. These people live there. If every time you drove out of your house you had to constantly stop/start/pull-in/pull-out/over-take to weave past groups of cyclists I can see how it might be quite intimidating and nervous. You can't expect people who live at the top of Box Hill to park at the bottom and walk up.
I'm not missing the point at all. There's a couple of Houses at the bottom that need about 100m of access and then all the residents who live at the top after the cafe could drive in from the other end which would add about 5mins to thier journey on a Sunday morning. As for stop start pull in etc it's what we (as drivers) have to do for cars on just about every residential street in every town in the country where thier are parked cars on either side of narrow roads.
This is ONE road in the whole country. It's great that it's so popular with cyclists and this should be embraced not frowned upon!0 -
Brakeless wrote:Sounds like the easiest thing to do with Box Hill would be to make it cyclists only from the bottom of the hill to the Cafe on Sundays. Motorists could either walk up, bring a bike or add 10 mins to thier journey and drive in to the top from the other direction.
Why should motorists always expect to be put first?
"Share the road" works both ways.
No road users should assume any priority over any other (except safety-based 'no horses on motorways' rules etc)0 -
GiantMike wrote:Brakeless wrote:Sounds like the easiest thing to do with Box Hill would be to make it cyclists only from the bottom of the hill to the Cafe on Sundays. Motorists could either walk up, bring a bike or add 10 mins to thier journey and drive in to the top from the other direction.
Why should motorists always expect to be put first?
"Share the road" works both ways.
If only :roll:0 -
Brakeless wrote:So there's more cyclists than motorists on one hill in the whole country each Sunday morning and they are causing a little bit of a hold up for a few drivers! And there's cyclists moaning about it!
Sounds like the easiest thing to do with Box Hill would be to make it cyclists only from the bottom of the hill to the Cafe on Sundays. Motorists could either walk up, bring a bike or add 10 mins to thier journey and drive in to the top from the other direction.
Why should motorists always expect to be put first?
You are being purposefully inflammatory, aren't you?0 -
I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be embraced - but I was suggesting I have sympathy with those who live there.
I actually don't agree that anyone should be able to set up a sportive without any kind of notification to the police or local authority, which seems to be the issue.
A quick Google illustrates the sheer number of Sportives using Box Hill recently...
Cycling Weekly Box Hill Original Sportive
Human Race London Cycle Sportive
Surrey Hills Cyclone
Access Sport London Cycle Sportive
London Revolution
Legs of Steel 2013
Pearson 150
FT London Cycle Sportive
King of the Downs
Jones Lang LaSalle Cycle Sportive
Help 4 Heroes Dawn Raid Sportive
Evans Woking Sportive
Northern Trust Sportive
RideLondon Surrey 100
Dorking Original Sportive
The Joker Southern Sportive
City Sportive
John Ibbotson Fund CycloSportive
Action Medical Research Ride 100
Ups and Downs Sportive
VO2 Sportive
Surrey Hillier
Surrey Hills Audax
Redhill CC Audax
Tour of the Surrey Hills
Orbital Cycling Festival
I appreciate that some of those might have repetition, but isn't it getting a bit exhausting? Why not have fewer, larger events which attract more support from the local population? Sending out 500 riders each week - often on overlapping routes - does no-one any favours. But an event with, say, 5000 riders once a month is likely to command more understanding and probably more practical support from the local authority.
Also, it's not just about this one road. Most of the Dorking/Box Hill area is very popular, as are most of the Surrey climbs. It's definitely to be encouraged, not discouraged, but clearly there could be better communication between organisers and local residents.0 -
ps. I did actually read elsewhere that National Trust were charging £1000 per sportive for access to the road anyway?0
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Navrig wrote:You are being purposefully inflammatory, aren't you?
Why? It seems reasonable to me.0 -
Well - RoadCC have put a facebook article up - saying that the local residents (mostly elderly) feel trapped during these events.
Having looked at the topography I can see why they do - there is one road that goes up the hill, through the middle of the residential area and on to other roads - there are no other routes out unless you go off road ...
So they don't get a lot of choice - you either entangle the cyclists or you stay put/away.
You could say "So What? Cyclists have every right to ride that road and they could do without an organised event"
Well, whilst that is true, you wouldn't usually get the concentration of riders.
It would be best for event organisers to liaise with local councils on their planning in order to avoid over concentration of rides in a single area.0 -
Brakeless wrote:GiantMike wrote:Brakeless wrote:Sounds like the easiest thing to do with Box Hill would be to make it cyclists only from the bottom of the hill to the Cafe on Sundays. Motorists could either walk up, bring a bike or add 10 mins to thier journey and drive in to the top from the other direction.
Why should motorists always expect to be put first?
"Share the road" works both ways.
If only :roll:
Nice selective editting. My point is that as road users we can't claim any additional rights over other road users. What next, ban cyclists that aren't on a Sportive? Would your car ban apply to the disabled? How would you like Box Hill to be filled with horse events and cyclists got banned?0 -
markhewitt1978 wrote:Navrig wrote:You are being purposefully inflammatory, aren't you?
Why? It seems reasonable to me.
What is reasonable about suggesting people, who may have lived in a particular location for many years, now have to change how they access their homes to suit a (temporary) fad in cycling?
If ever there was an idea which would increase the sales in carpet tacks this is it.0
