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Front hub / fork spacing.

TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
edited July 2013 in MTB workshop & tech
OK, today I received a 2nd hand MTB off the forum nothing fancy just a basic hardtail.
My problem is either with the spacing of the front hub or the fork. It is a 130mm travel Manitou (says 130 COMP FFD) and the hubs are unbranded.

7uwg.jpg

The fork seems to have approximately a 106mm spacing as far as my calipers can tell and the hubs are a good bit less seemingly 100mm. Would it be possible to fit 10mm Hub Axle Spacers of 3mm width on either side of the hub to "bridge the gap?" If not 3mm wide spacers either side of the hub then what other suggestions would you have?

Many thanks

Tony
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Posts

  • nicklousenicklouse Posts: 81,520 Lives Here
    it is a 100mmstandard fork. just fit the hub and tighten the Qr up.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    nicklouse wrote:
    it is a 100mmstandard fork. just fit the hub and tighten the Qr up.
    OK will try that now. I thought it was just a bit wider than that and had trouble tightening it though. Anyway I'm off to the garage to give it a try.

    Tony
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    nicklouse wrote:
    it is a 100mmstandard fork. just fit the hub and tighten the Qr up.

    Just tried it and it takes a great deal of effort to tighten the QR up and the fork has to squeeze and bend so much to close the 3mm or so gap on either side of the hub.
    Is it usual that a 100mm fork is 106mm as seen in the photo? I'm just new to this MTB technical lark!

    Cheers
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    You can see in the attached photographs that the with the wheel fitted and the QR untightened the 3mm or so gap between either side of the hub and the fork86u6.jpg
    2eee.jpg

    This is why I am thinking that 3mm spacers could work eliminating this gap?

    Cheers

    Tony
  • nicklousenicklouse Posts: 81,520 Lives Here
    the hub is 100mm the fork is designed to be 100mm

    just do it up and use it or send it back.

    space it out and you will not have fork legs that are parallel and will seize, wear out or just not work.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    nicklouse wrote:
    the hub is 100mm the fork is designed to be 100mm

    just do it up and use it or send it back.

    space it out and you will not have fork legs that are parallel and will seize, wear out or just not work.
    Thanks for replying Nick. I'll try that tomorrow.

    I can't remember my previous MTB being like this to tighten the front QR. I don't know if I have the strength to do it up though. Is it common to need a huge amount of effort to tighten up or usual for a 3mm gap either side of the hub before tightening the QR?

    I will check in the morning but I don't think any of my other bikes have this issue and certainly are not a struggle to tighten up. Sorry about all the questions this is just a new problem I have never had before.

    Cheers
  • nicklousenicklouse Posts: 81,520 Lives Here
    some forks are just sprung out that bit more- some you need to open them up to get the hub in. most just slot in with a few mm of clearance.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    nicklouse wrote:
    some forks are just sprung out that bit more- some you need to open them up to get the hub in. most just slot in with a few mm of clearance.
    Great to hear! Will take a few eggs for breakfast then give it a go!

    Thanks

    Tony
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,904
    What QR's have you got? Shimano have a nice internal cam system that gives more leverage than most so easier to apply a bit of welly.
    I don't do smileys.

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  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    cooldad wrote:
    What QR's have you got? Shimano have a nice internal cam system that gives more leverage than most so easier to apply a bit of welly.
    Hi cooldad, I'm not sure what it is other than to say that it's a fairly standard looking QR Skewer.

    Tony
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    OK, there is a problem. I'll let the photographs do most of the talking but you can see that the entire wheel is offset to the left of the fork so much so that the wheel can not turn as the disc rotor bolts come into contact with the fork...

    It did take a LOT of force to tighten the QR up to this level. :shock:

    Is there any way that this fork is unsuitable for 100mm hubs?


    Something needs changed as something is obviously very wrong the way it is. I can't help but think that a spacer might sort some of this out but has anyone else had similar experiences? I just can't for the life of me see how it could work without a spacer at the disc side at least to try to center the hub on the fork as it is currently much too far to the left.

    Thanks for the suggestions so far.

    gbbn.jpg
    pxqm.jpg
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    Didn't get to the LBS today but for what it is worth I just spoke to a MTB friend of mine on the phone who insisted that a spacer is needed upon giving him the details. I wasn't able to meet him today unfortunately as I could have tried one of his wheels in my fork or vice versa and taken a few measurements at the same time.

    Oh the frustration! :x

    Tony :D
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    Looks to me as if the forks have been bent outwards ie faulty.

    They shoold not need a spacer.

    You can try and push them back together a bit.
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    supersonic wrote:
    Looks to me as if the forks have been bent outwards ie faulty.

    They shoold not need a spacer.

    You can try and push them back together a bit.
    Hi Supersonic, I can see why it looks like that might do but even if I pushed them together to fit the hub (as effectively I have done by tightening the QR) it wouldn't work because the wheel would still be off center and the brake would hit the spokes and the disc rotor bolts would still hit the fork. That is why I can see the only solution being a spacer to center the hub and wheel on the fork (sorry for using the word "spacer" again - I'll be hearing it in my sleep).


    In the following photo it shows the rotor tight against the left brake pad. As mentioned above it takes a great deal of effort to bring the fork legs 6mm closer together.
    pxqm.jpg

    In the photo below it shows the spokes hitting the brake and the rotor bolts hitting the fork preventing the wheel turning as well as the rotor being jammed up (and bent) against the left side of the brake pad. Pushing the fork legs together will not help and a spacer between the hub and fork is surely needed to push the wheel out a bit bringing the brake rotor in line with the pad and allowing the wheel to turn freely?
    gbbn.jpg

    It can be difficult to get things across as well as I would like on the internet, I'm trying to show the issue with the photos but its hard to be clear. In real life you guys would probably see straight away what needs done. I appreciate the input and suggestions a great deal BTW as really I am stuck or missing on something very simple!

    Thanks again
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    The fork is faulty. Not much you can do except try and bodge it. I have seen it before, and I usually forcefully bend them in, but obviously this is not going to work here.

    You can try and space the hub out.

    My guess is the fork has been in a nasty crash and bent/twisted the structure.
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    Though try it with another wheel if you can.
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,904
    You could talk to the seller about it, unlikely they didn't know about it.
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

    London Calling on Facebook

    Parktools
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    supersonic wrote:
    The fork is faulty. Not much you can do except try and bodge it. I have seen it before, and I usually forcefully bend them in, but obviously this is not going to work here.

    You can try and space the hub out.

    My guess is the fork has been in a nasty crash and bent/twisted the structure.
    You are correct. I did bring the bike to my MTB friend in the end last night and he showed me what the problem was.

    c9hg.jpg
    fttj.jpg

    Basically the right side of the fork was twisted and bent outwards (as seen in following photos) which was causing the gap. The right arm also is slightly warped with a bulge that can be felt by hand but is hard to see with the eye. We put the bike upside down as it was easier to work on and photograph from below than on the stand.

    cx74.jpg
    n286.jpg

    He decided that it would have to be bent back but it probably wouldn't work considering the extent of it and with it being aluminium, with nothing to lose I decided we would give it a try. Little by little we bent it and tested it with the wheel mounted back in and it was coming closer to being straight and the gap was closing but unfortunately the aluminium fork end gave way and broke away from the fork body... Oh well at the onlookers (friends family) found it hilarious but that was the end of the fork though I am not too upset as he said that I would probably need to buy a new fork anyway.

    f58v.jpg
    mf3c.jpg

    I will obviously email the seller (who has been very reasonable so far) about this and see where we will take it. My eyes are currently peeled on ebay for a 120/130mm travel fork!

    Cheers

    Tony
  • cobbacobba Posts: 282
    If you can ID the fork you might be able to get a cheap replacement lower leg assembly.

    CRC has some old Manitou lower leg assemblies for as little as £12.50

    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Brands.aspx?BrandID=198&CategoryID=587

    FFD = Fluid Flow Damper

    If you want to ID it measure the stanchion diameter and post some more photos of the fork.
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    cobba wrote:
    If you can ID the fork you might be able to get a cheap replacement lower leg assembly.

    CRC has some old Manitou lower leg assemblies for as little as £12.50

    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Brands.aspx?BrandID=198&CategoryID=587

    FFD = Fluid Flow Damper

    If you want to ID it measure the stanchion diameter and post some more photos of the fork.
    Thank you for that Cobba,

    I will take some photos in a bit and post them.

    Tony
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    I'm pretty sure that I've identified the forks as the Manitou Slate which are the stock forks with this bike. The stickers have been removed so I couldn't tell from them and from what I gather they are not a particularly common model without a lot of info on the internet about them.

    The fork stanchions are 30mm in diameter which is the same as the Manitou Relic.

    I see Manitou Slate - Relic lower legs on CRC but they appear to be V-brake only and I need disc mounts. Is it a difficult job to replace the fork lowers usually?

    Tony
  • cobbacobba Posts: 282
    TONY.M wrote:
    I see Manitou Slate - Relic lower legs on CRC but they appear to be V-brake only and I need disc mounts. Is it a difficult job to replace the fork lowers usually?

    That lower leg assemby would have V-brake mounts and disc brake mounts.
    Manitou forks are fairly easy to work on.

    You might find some useful info in the following manual.
    http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service%20Manuals/2007%20Manitou%20Fork%20Service%20Manual.pdf
    According to the part number in that manual the legs at CRC are for a 2007 model, CRC and Hotlines use the same Brand ID, Model ID and Stock ID for parts but only Hotlines lists the manufacturers part number.
    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=21119
    http://www.hotlines-uk.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=21119

    Photo: 2007 Slate Comp
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    cobba wrote:
    TONY.M wrote:
    I see Manitou Slate - Relic lower legs on CRC but they appear to be V-brake only and I need disc mounts. Is it a difficult job to replace the fork lowers usually?

    That lower leg assemby would have V-brake mounts and disc brake mounts.
    Manitou forks are fairly easy to work on.

    You might find some useful info in the following manual.
    http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service%20Manuals/2007%20Manitou%20Fork%20Service%20Manual.pdf
    According to the part number in that manual the legs at CRC are for a 2007 model, CRC and Hotlines use the same Brand ID, Model ID and Stock ID for parts but only Hotlines lists the manufacturers part number.
    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=21119
    http://www.hotlines-uk.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=21119

    Photo: 2007 Slate Comp
    Thanks you again Cobba! Will take a good look at that when I get the time.

    Tony
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,747
    I have some Manitou Axel lowers (for coil spring - the lower mounting on the left is different air to coil) in the shed going spare, PM me if you are interested and I'll measure up, they were 120 or 130mm travel.
  • ant1901ant1901 Posts: 646
    Hi all just thought I'd comment as been watching this unfold as I sold tony the bike for a colleague of mine and it turns out I'm royally pissed off not due to tony but my collegue .just thought I'd say he's been a complete gem to deal with and I'm going to get him funds refunded for this absolute mess.tony I'll be in touch mate cheers
    2011 on one 456 carbon x9
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,904
    Thumbs up.
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

    London Calling on Facebook

    Parktools
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    ant1901 wrote:
    Hi all just thought I'd comment as been watching this unfold as I sold tony the bike for a colleague of mine and it turns out I'm royally pissed off not due to tony but my collegue .just thought I'd say he's been a complete gem to deal with and I'm going to get him funds refunded for this absolute mess.tony I'll be in touch mate cheers
    Just to say that ant1901 has been extremely honorable and very helpful in his handling all of this which it is not his fault he just happens to be stuck in the middle when trying to help a workmate - this kind of thing is why I never help my friends with anything, I learn from the past! :lol:

    Tony
  • TONY.MTONY.M Posts: 94
    A bit of time has passed and I have been too busy to get the bike sorted yet. What I am wanting to know is if it is easy enough for me (and a more technically minded friend, or if he is still on holiday the LBS) to replace the lower legs with the genuine Manitou Slate legs from CRC?

    They are just £25 at CRC and if it is an easy job for us or the LBS to do then I will go ahead and order today. If it is going to be tough or expensive then I will just buy 2nd hand RockShox Tora's or something similar.

    Thanks

    Tony
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,747
    Easy, loosen two bolts on bottom, tap upwards with a hammer (gently) to loosen inteference fit of uppers in lower, remove bolts and pull apart.

    Add required oil and refitting is the reverse of removal, you can even do it without removing the forks from the frame.
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