First wheel build advice needed.

welkman

Hi,

After 3 years of commuting, sportives and now road racing I have decided to take the plunge and build me a set of wheels. I am hoping to build up an on one pompino, fixed with disc brakes so will need to get some disc specific track hubs!

I seem to remember one or two of you building your own wheels a year or two ago and was hoping for advice on:

Spoke length/number and type.

Rim choice

Hub Choice.


Should I get a truing stand and tension meter?

Many Thanks

W

asprilla

Everything you need to know is here:

http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

It's probably the most widely used resource on wheel building and even shows you how to build your own build stand.

welkman

Sounds like I will save money buying the book as I can make my own stand, bonza!

tgotb

What's your budget, what do you weigh, and what are you hoping to use the bike for?

Need to be a bit careful with track hubs; some of them have very limited seals around the bearings, which is fine if you're only using them on the track, but would be suboptimal on a commuter. Hopefully doesn't apply to disc hubs, but you never know...

For a first build:
Truing stand makes things quite a bit easier, but to begin with you can get by with an old fork.
32-spoke wheels are a lot easier to get right than lower spoke counts.
Sticking to a conventional spoking pattern will also make it easier (probably 3x for 32 spokes and disc brakes)
You can make an adequate dish measuring tool (whatever it's called) from bits of wood nailed together, or even cardboard
Don't get psyched out by dishing; it's just getting the rim midway between the sides of the hub (not midway between the hub flanges)
The wheelpro eBook is definitely worth the money
Use double-butted spokes; plain gauge spokes won't make a wheel any more robust. Use brass nipples
Get a decent spoke spanner
I successfully built loads of wheels before buying a tension gauge; the human ear is pretty good for getting tensions even. That said, pinging spokes won't tell you the actual tension. A tension gauge will enable you to get closer to the rim manufacturer's recommended spec, so you do end up with a better wheel.
DT Swiss and Sapim both have online spoke calculators. I normally use both, and check the numbers match.

Edit: different schools of thought on how you should prepare your spoke threads; various people swear by anything from threadlock to grease, and there are various purpose-made substances available. Copper grease works well for me, but do your research and form your own opinion

welkman

Im 80kg, looking at building a commuting/winter training Fixie and dont want to spend more than £200 really. Surly make the rear hub I need and a matching 32 hole front hub. Thanks for the advice, will do spoke calculations at home later.

I have seen some pre built on Merlin but they are not disc hubs and seem very bulky!

asprilla

It's a good idea to measure the ERD of your rims before you buy spokes. Frequently published ERDs are complete balderdash.

tgotb

Asprilla wrote:

It's a good idea to measure the ERD of your rims before you buy spokes. Frequently published ERDs are complete balderdash.

+1. You'll need a couple of spokes and nipples to measure the ERD (unless someone has a cunning but accurate way of doing it without)

Hub measurements can sometimes be difficult to figure out from manufacturer websites too, so worth checking.

If you use copper grease for spoke threads and lace your wheels in front of the TV, be aware that copper grease is quite hard to get off upholstery. Some sofas allow you to flip the cushions, which makes them quite a lot better for wheel building.

asprilla

TGOTB wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

It's a good idea to measure the ERD of your rims before you buy spokes. Frequently published ERDs are complete balderdash.

+1. You'll need a couple of spokes and nipples to measure the ERD (unless someone has a cunning but accurate way of doing it without)

That's how I did it.

TGOTB wrote:

Hub measurements can sometimes be difficult to figure out from manufacturer websites too, so worth checking.

If you use copper grease for spoke threads and lace your wheels in front of the TV, be aware that copper grease is quite hard to get off upholstery. Some sofas allow you to flip the cushions, which makes them quite a lot better for wheel building.

I don't grease my nipples to but I do make sure I lubricate my eyelets before I start.

anonymousblackfg

you'll find no other option that the surly rear hub, this is what I went for, I matched it to a 32 hole deore front as it was cheap and very robust, if not the lightest.

I wanted all black wheels so I went for aerotrack rims which are slightly lighter than mavic open pro's and have a black brake track as they are made for the track but have been very strong so far and i'm a 90kg bloke on a steel bike with a penchant for northern classic type surfaces. The other option was Open Pro Ceramics.

Good luck and enjoy the build.

tgotb

Why ceramics for a disc build?

Use a recognised brand of spokes. DT Swiss and Sapim both very good, Alpina are supposed to be good also and a bit less pricey. If I were you I'd go with something like 2.0/1.8/2.0 double-butted (eg DT Competition, Sapim Race or whatever the Alpina equivalent is).

UndercoverElephant

Asprilla wrote:

Everything you need to know is here:

http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

It's probably the most widely used resource on wheel building and even shows you how to build your own build stand.

A massive +1 from me. Superb resource.

Rims? If you're after value: Rigida Chrinas are excellent. If you're after fancy, H Plus Son Archetypes are superb. Mine won when a car rear-ended me on Wednesday. Light and tough.

Spokes? Get the best you can. Sapim Race are a good starter, light enough and still easy to build with.

Other advice: take your time, oil on the sockets and the spoke threads and enjoy yourself. It's great fun and sets you apart from the fettle-wannabes.

anonymousblackfg

TGOTB wrote:

Why ceramics for a disc build?

Use a recognised brand of spokes. DT Swiss and Sapim both very good, Alpina are supposed to be good also and a bit less pricey. If I were you I'd go with something like 2.0/1.8/2.0 double-butted (eg DT Competition, Sapim Race or whatever the Alpina equivalent is).

So to avoid a shiny brake track, see wrathrobs build diary or the old fixed with discs threads for pics of my build.

UndercoverElephant

That's one of the benefits of the Archetypes, even the brake tracks are anodised. They do go silver after a while with rim brakes, but they stay looking good for disc builds.

Wrath Rob

anonymousblackfg wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Why ceramics for a disc build?

Use a recognised brand of spokes. DT Swiss and Sapim both very good, Alpina are supposed to be good also and a bit less pricey. If I were you I'd go with something like 2.0/1.8/2.0 double-butted (eg DT Competition, Sapim Race or whatever the Alpina equivalent is).

So to avoid a shiny brake track, see wrathrobs build diary or the old fixed with discs threads for pics of my build.

+1 to this. the OpenPro CDs have a surface finish which renders the brake surface the same colour as the rest of the rim. Alternatively see if you can get the new Shimano disc specific road rims. There seems to be very little choice out there right now for road rims without a braking surface.

tgotb

Wrath Rob wrote:

There seems to be very little choice out there right now for road rims without a braking surface.

I'm not sure how much of an issue this is in practice, especially in these days of deep-section rims. The extra material you need to provide a braking surface is exactly where you need the stiffness/strength to support clinchers anyway.

People have been riding track bikes for over a century without any requirement for a braking surface, yet you still see plenty of clincher track wheels built from Open Pro rims...

sufferingpete

I would advise starting with the front wheel - you don't have to sort the spokes.

Start by placing the nipples the same distance down the spokes - either visually against the spoke thread or by using a screwdriver until you can't turn them any more. This gives you a centered an correct dish starting point.

I don't bother with a dish tool I keep turning the wheel in the jig until it is centered (ok it's just me).

When buying spokes always by two spare of each size then you get a couple of spare nipples should you loose on and if you snap a spoke later you have a spare.

Use a spare spoke to hold the nipple as you insert the nipple into the rim. Some rims you can drop the nipple inside and have problems retrieving it.

If using a spoke key with different sizes tape over the ones not in use then you avoid using the wrong one and rounding the nipple.

Lastly

Enjoy making them don't rush take your time!

tgotb

sufferingpete wrote:

If using a spoke key with different sizes tape over the ones not in use then you avoid using the wrong one and rounding the nipple.

Genius!

anonymousblackfg

I've considered buy a very cheap pre built to dismantle and rebuild before as a way of learning, if these were £30 it would make a half decent investment I think.

davis

anonymousblackfg wrote:

I've considered buy a very cheap pre built to dismantle and rebuild before as a way of learning, if these were £30 it would make a half decent investment I think.

Just go to town on a knackered rim (anyone?), shirley?

rubertoe

Decathlon do a wheel for peanuts.

Sheame this didnt come up a few weeks ago when I skipped a set of wheels.

tgotb

anonymousblackfg wrote:

I've considered buy a very cheap pre built to dismantle and rebuild before as a way of learning, if these were £30 it would make a half decent investment I think.

Depends how cheap it is (and why). If the rim's true, and the spokes/nipples are ok it might work. Start with a wobbly rim and/or cr*p theads on the spokes/nipples, and you may get frustrated and not learn very much at all. For the same reason I'd steer clear of a used rim, at least to begin with.

One other factor is that a lot of factory wheels these days have quite stiff (heavy) rims and a low spoke count. Although you can work with these, you'd be better to start with a 32-spoke wheel if you can.

A better option might be to pick up some cheap bits and have a go. CRC have 32h rims from £15, hubs from £7.50, and DT Comp spokes for £16. I'm sure you could do it for less than this if you shop around, you certainly don't need DT spokes for instance. That's not much above your £30 budget, and at the end of it you have a reasonable commuter wheel, and the confidence to spend a bit more on the parts next time. I don't know how good the above components are, but they're probably better than the components in a £30 wheel; I've picked up very good hubs for £15 in the past...

veronese68

I was thinking of starting with a 26" wheel if I ever get round to having a go. Are they naturally a bit stronger so more forgiving of ineptitude? Or have I just made that up?

tgotb

Veronese68 wrote:

I was thinking of starting with a 26" wheel if I ever get round to having a go. Are they naturally a bit stronger so more forgiving of ineptitude? Or have I just made that up?

It's not really a case of building a wheel and then seeing if it holds up to riding. If you build it right you will be able to tell without riding it. All you're after is getting the spoke tensions correct and uniform (after you've destressed the wheel), and getting the wheel true in both dimensions. If the spoke tensions are uneven the wheel may start true and then go out of shape, but if they're even it shouldn't.

What you're really learning, is how to achieve the true wheel and even spoke tensions (at the same time). I've never built a 26" wheel, but from my experience of building Brompton wheels smaller isn't necessarily easier.

UndercoverElephant

In reality it makes very little difference. 26" wheels may be slightly stronger as a whole, due to slightly smaller spacing between the spokes, but you'd be hard-pressed to notice. I've built both, and so long as the spokes are the right length, it's a pretty simple affair.

veronese68

Yes, possibly badly worded on my part. The main reason for starting with a 26" wheel is that I should really replace the back wheel on the shitter 3 speed. The hub slips occasionally, the wheel is way out of true and it's all a bit knackered. I have a spare 3 speed hub so just need a cheap rim and spokes then I can practice on a cheap wheel without disabling anything while I do so. Hoping it was more forgiving of ineptitude is just a feeble attempt to give myself peace of mind.
I should probably get the boy to give it the first ride if I ever do get round to it. Teenagers bounce much better than older folk don't they.

welkman

Right I am going for a Cheap truing stand, some surly hubs and mavic open pro 32 hole rims. I may do some kind of picture guide if I get round to it. I think It will be fun!

UndercoverElephant

Just build the one in the book. Mine was a few bits of wood and my youngest's stabilisers, took minutes to build.