Hills...

Schoie81

So, before I got my road bike, i'd spent a couple of years putting in some miles on my MTB, some of which were on the roads, and a lot of which were up hills. So when I took the plunge and bought a road bike, I was keen to see how much easier cycling up hills would be. My first ride on the road bike, I set off to tackle one close to home which is a 'good' one. Sure enough, it felt easier on the way up, and the 6mins30s+ it takes me on my MTB, was reduced to under 5mins on the road bike, so definitely quicker. BUT, when I got to the top I was absolutely spent - I felt I wanted to stop for a rest!! The road levels out at the top of the hill for about a mile and I just had to coast along hardly putting any effort in just to recover from the hill. Is this normal? In the month since I got the road bike, it hasn't changed much - hills feel easier than on the MTB whilst I'm cycling up them, but once at the top I feel far more worn out. Is it a technique thing? Or has MTBing just not got me fit enough for a road bike and it'll sort itself in time - someone told me a few weeks ago that a road bike will get you fitter than riding a MTB.

Grill

Lower your gear and raise your cadence. Besides that it's down to fitness, but at the end of the day if you properly attack a climb you will be blowing at the top.

styxd

You are quicker up the hill on the road bike, perhaps not just because it's lighter and more suited to climbing, but because it's also encouraging you to put more effort in than the MTB does?

Schoie81

Grill wrote:

Lower your gear and raise your cadence. Besides that it's down to fitness, but at the end of the day if you properly attack a climb you will be blowing at the top.

Oh believe me, I lower my gear!! I tend to pedal until it starts to get me, then shift down and keep doing that - I wonder if I should maybe change down sooner? Once it starts becoming hard work - have a left it too late to change down the gears?

markhewitt1978

It never gets easier, you just go faster.

That said the first time I went on a road bike after my hybrid I found it much more tiring for the same hills, mostly down to positioning, you'll get used to it

djm501

Yeah that sounds about right - keep the cadence up and a good rhythm. If you can - some hills are just so steep you have to grind even in your lowest gear.

(What is your lowest gear?)

Sorry but I do have to say this. You're 25% quicker up that hill now - and you're surprised you're knackered???

slowbike

I find you tend to pedal to the lowest gear - well, within limits obviously!

I bought a CX with lowest selection of 30/32 ... never used it ... never dropped into the granny gear (30) and as the gaps between gears on the back were so big (32-11 - 9 speed) I swapped the cassette to a 23-11 - I now use the granny gear.

I guess your MTB had fairly low gears - they tend too ... so you could drop it into a really low gear and just run up the hill ... your road bike will almost definitely have higher gearing - and you're putting in more effort (hence faster) at probably a lower cadence - so yes, you will feel knackered at the top.

In terms of physics - it will take a specific amount of energy to move your mass from the bottom of the hill to the top. You can't get away from that. Expending that energy in a shorter space of time will leave you feeling more knackered - and don't forget the other complications of wind drag and other elements ...

Grill

Schoie81 wrote:

Grill wrote:

Lower your gear and raise your cadence. Besides that it's down to fitness, but at the end of the day if you properly attack a climb you will be blowing at the top.

Oh believe me, I lower my gear!! I tend to pedal until it starts to get me, then shift down and keep doing that - I wonder if I should maybe change down sooner? Once it starts becoming hard work - have a left it too late to change down the gears?

Rhythm is essential to not tiring yourself on climbs. I was able to climb everything in Mallorca and still feel fresh because I found a rhythm and stuck to it. It's easier on a constant gradient, but also it does take time to know yourself enough to figure out what works for you.

Try starting with an easier gear and concentrate on spinning a good cadence (85+) seated. Getting out of the saddle will tire you quickly.

Schoie81

djm501 wrote:

Yeah that sounds about right - keep the cadence up and a good rhythm. If you can - some hills are just so steep you have to grind even in your lowest gear.

(What is your lowest gear?)

Sorry but I do have to say this. You're 25% quicker up that hill now - and you're surprised you're knackered???

The road bike has a 50/34 compact, so my lowest gear is 34-28. (on my MTB its 22-34 - so yes, quite a bit lower on the MTB, although I don't very often get down to the bottom of the cassette, so I probably go down to 22-26 on this particular hill on my MTB - still lower than I CAN go on the road bike)

Not so much 'surprised' that doing the same hill quicker leaves me tired, but find it a bit odd that it seems easier on the way up, but once at the top, feels like it was actually harder.

@markthewitt - I wondered if it might be down to positioning, wondered if its just because I can't get as much air in my lungs because i'm used to riding 'sat up' on the MTB.

gllewellyn

In terms of physics - it will take a specific amount of energy to move your mass from the bottom of the hill to the top. You can't get away from that.

^ This - although you're road bike is lighter than your mountain bike, overall the difference in weight is fairly small.

Try starting with an easier gear and concentrate on spinning a good cadence (85+) seated. Getting out of the saddle will tire you quickly.

^ And this - I tend to force myself to start a hill in a lower gear than I want and spin a high cadence - then I can maintain that all the way to the top. If I attack of the bottom, it's easy to die half way up. The last sportive I did, a guy in front literally fell of his bike in front of me half way up a hill when his body decided it had had enough - again he was attacking it at the bottom, but couldn't sustain the effort.

I wondered if it might be down to positioning, wondered if its just because I can't get as much air in my lungs because i'm used to riding 'sat up' on the MTB.

^ And this! Aerodynamics only has a significant impact at around 15mph+, so when you're crawling up a hill use the tops of the bars so you open your lungs up, etc, or whichever position you find easiest. I find I'll be on the tops for most of a climb, but I will move my position around.

smidsy

You went up the hill 1 min 30 secs quicker than normal and are asking why you feel more tired ...Hmmmmm.

Monty Dog

You're riding at a higher intensity on the road bike, hence the faster time but you're also stressing your cardiovascular system more. MTBs typically feel sluggish on the road because they're heavier and your less inclined to get out the saddle because of squishy tyres and suspension 'bob' which wastes a lot of energy and distrupts your rhythm. IME the only time an MTB will be faster than a road bike uphill is when it's so steep/loose you can't get any grip. I have some regular offroad circuits that I ride on a CX or rigid 29er MTB - the CX bike whumps every sector except the 40 degree incline on the fire road, where the MTB with 2.5" tyres at 18 psi scrabble for traction.

Schoie81

smidsy wrote:

You went up the hill 1 min 30 secs quicker than normal and are asking why you feel more tired ...Hmmmmm.

As I say, i'm not surprised i'm knackered at the top - more that on my MTB, i cycle as hard as I can on that, and when I get to the flat beyond the crest of the hill it feels like its actually downhill as its a relief after the climb, so I get straight up to top gear (obviously still lower than top gear on the road bike) and I'm pedalling hard again. On the road bike, on the way up it feels easier and more enjoyable (and its quicker), but at the top there's just nothing left, so I stay down the gears on the flat for a while to recover. Its just with the apparent easier climb, it feels like I should be full of beans at the top, or at least still have as much left in the tank as I have on the MTB. Its the contrast between how it feels on the climb and how it feels at the top on each bike.

I do think it is to do with not being able to breathe as freely when i'm low on the road bike. I have an asthma related condition that may not help.

markhewitt1978

Schoie81 wrote:

I do think it is to do with not being able to breathe as freely when i'm low on the road bike. I have an asthma related condition that may not help.

How are you climbing, what part of the bars are you using? I usually climb using the tops, although I've seen lots of people climbing on the hoods.

Schoie81

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Schoie81 wrote:

I do think it is to do with not being able to breathe as freely when i'm low on the road bike. I have an asthma related condition that may not help.

How are you climbing, what part of the bars are you using? I usually climb using the tops, although I've seen lots of people climbing on the hoods.

Yeah, usually on the hoods - thats where I spend most of my time on the bike... gonna try switching around a bit on the hills tonight, see what difference it makes.

elderone

As a relative newbie and oldie I find hills tough,so on big hills I get into the granny gear as soon as it starts getting steep and just spin away.It gets me in a rythem and I can just keep going at a steady pace.Go to quick and you will just fade,it,s all about pacing.

lastwords

I reckon on the MTB you are climbing the hill using your aerobic system by spinning the gears but because on the road bike you are having to push the harder gears you are using more muscle strength and its possible you are going anaerobic which is why you feel wiped out at the top. In my experience good fitness on a MTB does not translate directly to road biking.

Tjgoodhew

When I first started riding hills used to absolutely kill me. I was having to stop at the top and take a breather.

But 7 months later its not much different. They still kill me and I still want to die at the top.

However I'm now riding the same hills 4/5mph quicker. I try and ride the same hills regularly and each ride try to go up in a higher gear.

stueyboy

markhewitt1978 wrote:

It never gets easier, you just go faster.

^this is very true

Also wait until you go up a hill on your MTB off road again and you will feel like a ninja.

Schoie81

I was thinking about this as I was (bizarrely) driving down the hill I was talking about on Friday night. Thinking about the way I cycle - ie. in the highest gear I can manage, changing down only when I NEED to and when the gear I'm in is too hard, I don't think it can be feeling easier on the way up on the road bike - otherwise I would be still in a higher gear. I think because the road bike has higer gear ratios and therefore i'm moving faster up the hill, my brain is just thinking its easier. So that explains why i'm practically dead at the top of the hill!!

Jon_1976

Schoie81 wrote:

Grill wrote:

Lower your gear and raise your cadence. Besides that it's down to fitness, but at the end of the day if you properly attack a climb you will be blowing at the top.

Oh believe me, I lower my gear!! I tend to pedal until it starts to get me, then shift down and keep doing that - I wonder if I should maybe change down sooner? Once it starts becoming hard work - have a left it too late to change down the gears?

I used to do this and it made climbing a miserable painful experience for me. I'd push myself as hard as I could and when it got too much, change down a gear..and repeat until I either run out of gears or get to the top looking like Cadel Evans with constipation :roll:

Since then, I've started using my cadence sensor and heart rate monitor all the time now. On 99% of climbs, I can find a heart rate zone/cadence that is taxing but I know I can sustain for the duration and just change gears to keep them in that area. Now instead of going quite quickly for a short period and then progressively slowing down (with a depleting cadence) I can go at a steady rate, with a comfortable cadence and zone.

Having said that, there are some silly 25% climbs round here, were I end in zone 5+ with a ridiculously slow cadence and theres not much else to do apart from plod on.

Sprool

I change down earlier to keep cadence on the high side of 85-90, helps me get up the hills easier than pushing longer gears.

Schoie81

Bl***y thing got me again last night.. :evil: This time I blame it on the fact I was riding 'clipless' for the first time - got some tinkering to do with cleat position and saddle height now I think.

For those suggesting walking isn't the answer though - I did just stop and have a rest for a minute or so this time, so I did actually cycle the entire hill, just with a little pit-stop in the middle.

Just out of interest, people all over the forum speak of cadance all the time - how do you know that you're pedalling at 85-90??

smidsy

Assuming you are not going to invest in a computer and cadense sensor '"Nelly the elephant" - but you do get some strange glances from passers by - Oh that was my outside voice again.

imposter2.0

Schoie81 wrote:

Just out of interest, people all over the forum speak of cadance all the time - how do you know that you're pedalling at 85-90??

Cadence is a bit of a red herring - I wouldn't get hung up on it. In any case, your cadence will tend to rise naturally with your fitness...

Sprool

Get a bike computer with cadence senser on it - small magnet fitting to the pedal crank, it then records your pedalling speed. I use it all the time now as my own rev counter. At first, and looking at a lot of other cyclists, I found cadence was at 70 and below. I got some training rollers and rode more, keeping cadence up at 85-90 and found it to be a far more efficient technique which helped me on average speeds as well as climbs. Once you have the muscle memory in your legs you know you are going at a more efficient speed. I've always been more of a middle distance runner than a sprinter so around 85-90 is what I find most efficient and comfortable. It might be different for you. Some people prefer to power up hills at 60 - 70, pushing bigger gears more slowly tires my legs out quicker.

Schoie81

I can't do pedalling slow in a higher gear - not at my current level of fitness/strength anyway. But I also find it difficult slowing down (as daft as that sounds). Going up the hill I keep telling myself I need to slow down a bit (in the lowest gear i'm talking here...) and pace myself so i can get to the top in however long it takes, as opposed to gettting half way up quickly and then having to stop, but if I do actually make that happen, as soon as my legs strat to feel the relief of going slower, its not long before i'm seeing my speed/cadance rise again without me thinking about it. If it feels easy, I just end up pedalling quicker. To be fair, I think I was beat mentally before I even tried last night - after failing last week, I'd got it in my head it was going to be really hard, and so it was....

Can't quite figure out what it is about this hill. I'm not new to riding up hills, there are plenty of other on my rides that I can get up - but this one seems to have me beat... It isn't that steep, but is quite long, could be that its just constant, it doesn't ease off at all to give me a breather.

dab_32

Schoie81 wrote:

smidsy wrote:

You went up the hill 1 min 30 secs quicker than normal and are asking why you feel more tired ...Hmmmmm.

As I say, i'm not surprised i'm knackered at the top - more that on my MTB, i cycle as hard as I can on that, and when I get to the flat beyond the crest of the hill it feels like its actually downhill as its a relief after the climb, so I get straight up to top gear (obviously still lower than top gear on the road bike) and I'm pedalling hard again. On the road bike, on the way up it feels easier and more enjoyable (and its quicker), but at the top there's just nothing left, so I stay down the gears on the flat for a while to recover. Its just with the apparent easier climb, it feels like I should be full of beans at the top, or at least still have as much left in the tank as I have on the MTB. Its the contrast between how it feels on the climb and how it feels at the top on each bike.

I do think it is to do with not being able to breathe as freely when i'm low on the road bike. I have an asthma related condition that may not help.

This is surely down to the speed you can accelerate and the effort needed. On a MTB you have much easier gears so the effort needed to spin in the easiest gear is much less than on a road bike.

When you get to the top of a hill you have to put more effort into the road bike to accelerate again due to having less 'easier' gears. On the MTB you can spin the easier gear in a higher cadence with less effort and go up through the gears quicker due to this. The relative power in each pedal stroke is less because you've used easier gears to get there.

It's like starting a car in 3rd gear instead of 1st gear. The best thing to do is get out of the saddle as you reach the top in order to get your cadence (RPM) up again and your speed on the flat will go up quicker.

I think that makes sense, maybe?

smidsy

Cadence generally drops when standing.

Schoie81

The posts i've put on here this morning are on the wrong thread! :oops: Should have gone on another thread I started entitled "Epic fail...."