do new chains need lubing before use?

chris_bass

i have searched on here and elsewhere and it seems about 50 50 whether people think the lube a chain comes with already applied is just to keep it in good condition for transport and others say its the best lube you could get and youd be a fool to clean and relube!

sheldon brown (who i tend to believe on most maintenance matters!) says its great lube and to leave it.

does anyone know either way?

smoggysteve

Lube reduces wear and friction.

Work it out for yourself. Would you buy a new car and not put oil in the engine??

Bhandylegs

I personally would leave it with the factory lube on it until it needs cleaning, but not sure if all chains are pre lubricated.

smoggysteve

The lube inside the chain does nothing for the rest of the running gear. You still need lube on the sprockets.

chris_bass

SmoggySteve wrote:

Lube reduces wear and friction.

Work it out for yourself. Would you buy a new car and not put oil in the engine??

No, because it already has oil in! And the chain already has lube on!

I was asking if the lube already on the chain is intended for riding or not.

smoggysteve

Chris Bass wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

Lube reduces wear and friction.

Work it out for yourself. Would you buy a new car and not put oil in the engine??

No, because it already has oil in! And the chain already has lube on!

I was asking if the lube already on the chain is intended for riding or not.

The lube inside the chain only lubes the links inside the chain itself. The outer part which comes in contact with the cassette still needs lubing. This is where the wear and tear will arise most. With no lube between the chain and sprockets the wear to the rest of the running gear will happen quicker.

desweller

I usually run a bit of oil in on a new chain. The factory grease doesn't hang around for long.

NB SmoggySteve, the sprocket/roller interface is not a sliding interface like the roller/plate so oil is not a critical requirement.

smoggysteve

DesWeller wrote:

I usually run a bit of oil in on a new chain. The factory grease doesn't hang around for long.

NB SmoggySteve, the sprocket/roller interface is not a sliding interface like the roller/plate so oil is not a critical requirement.

So explain to me cassette wear then. The chain is not on a perfectly straight plain all the time. depending on the gear it sits at an angle, so wear will happen, lube will help reduce this. If you think you can get away with no oil on the cassette and and the outer part of the chain "rollers" then you are very wrong.

chris_bass

I think I'll put a bit on to be safe!

It's a shimano ultegra chain and seems like it's all covered in lube not just the inside of the links

desweller

When the chain and back block are new, the pitch of chain links is a close match to the tooth spacing on the sprockets. So the load is fairly evenly distributed around the rollers that are in contact with the sprocket. As the chain wears the link pitch becomes more variable along the chain and is no longer a close match for the sprocket tooth spacing, so the number of rollers in contact with the sprocket at any one time is reduced. This leads to higher contact pressures, producing wear. Note that a sprocket does not wear if it is always run with a well-maintained or frequently replaced chain.

neilrobins

My LBS who supplied the Ultegra chain told me to keep it clean and ony re-lube after 500 odd miles as the factory lube was as good as any you can buy. However the rear cassette regularly gets degreased and lubed which will work it's way into the chain. All told didn't need to mess with chain for 6 or so weeks after fitting.

smoggysteve

DesWeller wrote:

When the chain and back block are new, the pitch of chain links is a close match to the tooth spacing on the sprockets. So the load is fairly evenly distributed around the rollers that are in contact with the sprocket. As the chain wears the link pitch becomes more variable along the chain and is no longer a close match for the sprocket tooth spacing, so the number of rollers in contact with the sprocket at any one time is reduced. This leads to higher contact pressures, producing wear. Note that a sprocket does not wear if it is always run with a well-maintained or frequently replaced chain.

So if I went big ring front, and biggest cog rear, the chain is going to wear at the same rate as being in one of the middle cogs? How long before this starts to drop off? TBH, your argument is bollox. Wear will happen and lube will reduce it from happening. Any argument that you wouldn't go big to big or small to small on a gear is neither hear nor there. People do regardless of what how you should go through the gears. Also, a new bike will have a small degree of cable stretch which will make gears slightly out of synch. Maybe not to the point of needing barrel adjustments but the wear will be happening. Given the choice of lubing and not, I think most will agree that you need to lube your gears.

desweller

SmoggySteve wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

When the chain and back block are new, the pitch of chain links is a close match to the tooth spacing on the sprockets. So the load is fairly evenly distributed around the rollers that are in contact with the sprocket. As the chain wears the link pitch becomes more variable along the chain and is no longer a close match for the sprocket tooth spacing, so the number of rollers in contact with the sprocket at any one time is reduced. This leads to higher contact pressures, producing wear. Note that a sprocket does not wear if it is always run with a well-maintained or frequently replaced chain.

So if I went big ring front, and biggest cog rear, the chain is going to wear at the same rate as being in one of the middle cogs? How long before this starts to drop off? TBH, your argument is bollox. Wear will happen and lube will reduce it from happening. Any argument that you wouldn't go big to big or small to small on a gear is neither hear nor there. People do regardless of what how you should go through the gears. Also, a new bike will have a small degree of cable stretch which will make gears slightly out of synch. Maybe not to the point of needing barrel adjustments but the wear will be happening. Given the choice of lubing and not, I think most will agree that you need to lube your gears.

Chain wear is accelerated by cross chaining because the rollers run on a bigger area when they are square to the bushes in the side plates. So the shear force in the fluid film is low and it does not flow as quickly from between the roller and the bush. When the chain is crossed, the rollers are running on their edges, resulting in higher contact pressures. It's harder for the oil film to resist this higher shear force, so it's more likely to flow out and allow metal-to-metal sliding contact, which is when wear occurs.

When the chain wears, the sprockets wear as I've described. The point is, it's much more important to get oil into the chain; having it on the surfaces of the rollers is neither here nor there. I don't know why you're being so aggressive about it though.

chris_bass

Wasn't expecting this to get quite so heated!

smoggysteve

DesWeller wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

When the chain and back block are new, the pitch of chain links is a close match to the tooth spacing on the sprockets. So the load is fairly evenly distributed around the rollers that are in contact with the sprocket. As the chain wears the link pitch becomes more variable along the chain and is no longer a close match for the sprocket tooth spacing, so the number of rollers in contact with the sprocket at any one time is reduced. This leads to higher contact pressures, producing wear. Note that a sprocket does not wear if it is always run with a well-maintained or frequently replaced chain.

So if I went big ring front, and biggest cog rear, the chain is going to wear at the same rate as being in one of the middle cogs? How long before this starts to drop off? TBH, your argument is bollox. Wear will happen and lube will reduce it from happening. Any argument that you wouldn't go big to big or small to small on a gear is neither hear nor there. People do regardless of what how you should go through the gears. Also, a new bike will have a small degree of cable stretch which will make gears slightly out of synch. Maybe not to the point of needing barrel adjustments but the wear will be happening. Given the choice of lubing and not, I think most will agree that you need to lube your gears.

Chain wear is accelerated by cross chaining because the rollers run on a bigger area when they are square to the bushes in the side plates. So the shear force in the fluid film is low and it does not flow as quickly from between the roller and the bush. When the chain is crossed, the rollers are running on their edges, resulting in higher contact pressures. It's harder for the oil film to resist this higher shear force, so it's more likely to flow out and allow metal-to-metal sliding contact, which is when wear occurs.

When the chain wears, the sprockets wear as I've described. The point is, it's much more important to get oil into the chain; having it on the surfaces of the rollers is neither here nor there. I don't know why you're being so aggressive about it though.

I'm not being aggressive. I just disagree with you. After years of riding bikes and maintaining them, I believe that making sure the whole running gear requires lubing to prevent wear. Having had gears worn to sharp points after a while, tell me thats not from anything other than the chain passing over it. Metal on metal under tension will create wear. Lube will reduce this. FACT.

rolf_f

SmoggySteve wrote:

Metal on metal under tension will create wear. Lube will reduce this. FACT.

Nobody is arguing this (I think!). The counter argument to yours is that the wear is caused by the change of chain pitch caused by chain wear rather than a mechanical abrasion between the roller and the cassette.

If you can be bothered, I would assume that the answer to this lies in where the wear occurs. If the wear is to shared between pin and roller (which I believe it would be) then your argument is incorrect - if it is worn on the outside of the rollers, then you would be correct. The argument is moot anyway for most as it is going to be difficult to lubricate inside the rollers without getting oil on the outside. And it is probably a good idea to clean the cassette and chainrings regularly too.

Also, for a given (middle range) gear, you will get less wear by using the large chainring and a larger sprocket than the small chainring and a smaller sprocket due to the load being spread over a larger number of teeth. Not that this is in practical terms worth trying on the bike!

markhewitt1978

SmoggySteve wrote:

Work it out for yourself. Would you buy a new car and not put oil in the engine??

Why would it not have oil in the engine. I've bought two cars brand new and can assure you, they come with oil already installed!

junglist_matty

Lube is only required on the inner links of a chain.

Lube on the cassette is not good for the cassette because it attracts dirt and grit, contrary to belief, this increases cassette wear. You want your cassette to be nice and shiny clean & dry, the outside of your chain dry and no dirt/grit will stick to your rings and wear them down.... Although as the chain is exposed, it's impossible to keep it dry and free from dirt/grit so you're fighting a loosing battle.


The lube applied to brand new chains is brilliant, they apply it by dipping the chain into hot lube and the lube penetrates the inner parts of the chain; the part of the chain where you want the lube to keep the chain running nice and smooth.

nicklouse

SmoggySteve wrote:

I'm not being aggressive. I just disagree with you. After years of riding bikes and maintaining them, I believe that making sure the whole running gear requires lubing to prevent wear. Having had gears worn to sharp points after a while, tell me thats not from anything other than the chain passing over it. Metal on metal under tension will create wear. Lube will reduce this. FACT.

sounds like you are not lubing your chain correctly. the cog wear you mention is caused by the chain wearings and "growing" this offset on the links is what causes the cogs to wear.

and back to the OP if you ride in a dusty enviroment it might be an idea to wipe the new chain down with a cloth to remove the lube from the outside so that it does not act as a dirt magnet. But there is no need to lube the chain as it is already well lubed.

slowbike

Chris Bass wrote:

Wasn't expecting this to get quite so heated!

Heating the chain whilst applying lube helps the lube get into the inner parts of the chain - any fule knose that ...

chris_bass

Slowbike wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

Wasn't expecting this to get quite so heated!

Heating the chain whilst applying lube helps the lube get into the inner parts of the chain - any fule knose that ...

haha! next time i need to apply lube i'll start a similar post and hold the computer near my bike whilst applying it to get the proper heat treatment!

desweller

SmoggySteve wrote:

Metal on metal under tension will create wear. Lube will reduce this. FACT.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding. A fixed load might induce a bit of creep at the atomic level, but it does not cause wear. Imagine if you had one stainless steel block on top of another. If you just left them together then you would not expect them to wear away at their interface. But if you slide one of the blocks around you'll get wear.

You need a sliding interface for wear to occur. That's why car engines still use poppet valves rather than spool or rotary valves, because the valve interface does not slide.

My knowledge of tribology is based around working on sliding interfaces in very high pressure pumps for fuel injection systems, so I do have a fair bit of practical experience in analysing this sort of wear mode.

slowbike

DesWeller wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

Metal on metal under tension will create wear. Lube will reduce this. FACT.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding. A fixed load might induce a bit of creep at the atomic level, but it does not cause wear. <snip>
You need a sliding interface for wear to occur. <snip>
My knowledge of tribology is based around working on sliding interfaces in very high pressure pumps for fuel injection systems, so I do have a fair bit of practical experience in analysing this sort of wear mode.

I think it would be fair to say that the chain will slip against the cassette as the links bed down into the cogs - even when both are new. There are rollers on the chain that may rotate as it does so, but either-which-way it's not a static interface. Therefore some lubrication should be used between the chain/cassette interface.

Personally I believe (although do not know) that a new chain is sufficiently lubed and at most the end user should only apply additional lube on the middle of the chain and then only a small amount.

desweller

Slowbike wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

Metal on metal under tension will create wear. Lube will reduce this. FACT.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding. A fixed load might induce a bit of creep at the atomic level, but it does not cause wear. <snip>
You need a sliding interface for wear to occur. <snip>
My knowledge of tribology is based around working on sliding interfaces in very high pressure pumps for fuel injection systems, so I do have a fair bit of practical experience in analysing this sort of wear mode.

I think it would be fair to say that the chain will slip against the cassette as the links bed down into the cogs - even when both are new. There are rollers on the chain that may rotate as it does so, but either-which-way it's not a static interface. Therefore some lubrication should be used between the chain/cassette interface.

A chain/sprocket interface is not like a gear/gear interface, where the teeth slide against one another as they move into a fully engaged position. On gears it is very important to have lubrication between teeth because of this. A chain can articulate, so the roller is placed into its load-bearing position with little or no sliding if the tooth geometry is correct, because the link can rotate around the fully engaged roller ahead.

dodgy

junglist_matty wrote:

Lube is only required on the inner links of a chain.

Lube on the cassette is not good for the cassette because it attracts dirt and grit, contrary to belief, this increases cassette wear. You want your cassette to be nice and shiny clean & dry, the outside of your chain dry and no dirt/grit will stick to your rings and wear them down.... Although as the chain is exposed, it's impossible to keep it dry and free from dirt/grit so you're fighting a loosing battle.


The lube applied to brand new chains is brilliant, they apply it by dipping the chain into hot lube and the lube penetrates the inner parts of the chain; the part of the chain where you want the lube to keep the chain running nice and smooth.

+1

slowbike

DesWeller wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

Metal on metal under tension will create wear. Lube will reduce this. FACT.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding. A fixed load might induce a bit of creep at the atomic level, but it does not cause wear. <snip>
You need a sliding interface for wear to occur. <snip>
My knowledge of tribology is based around working on sliding interfaces in very high pressure pumps for fuel injection systems, so I do have a fair bit of practical experience in analysing this sort of wear mode.

I think it would be fair to say that the chain will slip against the cassette as the links bed down into the cogs - even when both are new. There are rollers on the chain that may rotate as it does so, but either-which-way it's not a static interface. Therefore some lubrication should be used between the chain/cassette interface.

A chain/sprocket interface is not like a gear/gear interface, where the teeth slide against one another as they move into a fully engaged position. On gears it is very important to have lubrication between teeth because of this. A chain can articulate, so the roller is placed into its load-bearing position with little or no sliding if the tooth geometry is correct, because the link can rotate around the fully engaged roller ahead.

You say "little or no sliding" and condition that statement with the tooth geometry being correct.
So to me that suggests that in the main, the roller WILL slide against the tooth - therefore some lube is required.

So the only question remaining is if the new chain from the factory includes enough lube for this.

drlodge

Slowbike wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

Metal on metal under tension will create wear. Lube will reduce this. FACT.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding. A fixed load might induce a bit of creep at the atomic level, but it does not cause wear. <snip>
You need a sliding interface for wear to occur. <snip>
My knowledge of tribology is based around working on sliding interfaces in very high pressure pumps for fuel injection systems, so I do have a fair bit of practical experience in analysing this sort of wear mode.

I think it would be fair to say that the chain will slip against the cassette as the links bed down into the cogs - even when both are new. There are rollers on the chain that may rotate as it does so, but either-which-way it's not a static interface. Therefore some lubrication should be used between the chain/cassette interface.

A chain/sprocket interface is not like a gear/gear interface, where the teeth slide against one another as they move into a fully engaged position. On gears it is very important to have lubrication between teeth because of this. A chain can articulate, so the roller is placed into its load-bearing position with little or no sliding if the tooth geometry is correct, because the link can rotate around the fully engaged roller ahead.

You say "little or no sliding" and condition that statement with the tooth geometry being correct.
So to me that suggests that in the main, the roller WILL slide against the tooth - therefore some lube is required.

So the only question remaining is if the new chain from the factory includes enough lube for this.

Short answer - YES.

Longer answer: factory lube is good lube, however it is generally quite thick and sticky to tends to attract dirt more. Some may choose to degrease a new chain in order to remove this sticky grease, and apply their own lube. The instructions on ProGold ProLink atually state to remove factory lube from new chains before applying.

Any lube on a chain, factory or otherwise, will leak out over the sprockets and provide adequate lubrication.

desweller

Slowbike wrote:

You say "little or no sliding" and condition that statement with the tooth geometry being correct.
So to me that suggests that in the main, the roller WILL slide against the tooth - therefore some lube is required.

So the only question remaining is if the new chain from the factory includes enough lube for this.

The movement between the roller and sprocket in the circumferential direction will be orders of magnitude lower than that between the roller and bush. It's probably not even as great as the lateral movement driven by chainline.

Anyway, as far as the OP is concerned; run some oil in there, it won't hurt it and at least you know you've got some.

denniskwok

SmoggySteve wrote:

Given the choice of lubing and not, I think most will agree that you need to lube your gears.

I think you will find that the vast majority of people do not put lube on their rear cassette. I certainly don't and wouldn't dream of it. It would create a right mess.

After relubing and a wipe down, the chain will still have some residual lube on the outer plates, which will be sufficient to assist with changes up the block, if that's what you're talking about. Your argument about cross-chaining is semi valid, but why the hell would anybody with half a brain and a modicum of mechnical sympathy be riding around with a crossed chain?

As for wear to the individual teeth, DesWeller is correct, you are wrong. The chain rollers apply a largely static load to the sprocket teeth, to which lube will have no, or negligable benefits. Any benefit in terms of wear would be more than outweighed by the increased dirt ingested by the drivetrain, caused by the excess lube all over your cassette forming a lovely grinding paste. As it is, even after a wipe down, the chain rollers will still have a very thin film of lube on them and you should leave it at that.

Coating your cassette in lube is simply not neccessary. Not to mention, expensive.

pliptrot

Factory lube is probably as good as it gets - the issue is the attraction of dirt - it does, many "dry" lubes do not (much). But often they don't lubricate very well or last very long. The dirt issue is why it is a very bad idea indeed to lubricate anything other than the chain. Even in more demanding applications, with less potential for dirt contamination, the sprockets of the system will not be lubricated.

nferrar

As per nicklouse's post, get the factory lube off the outer plates as it's sticky and will attract dirt but don't degrease the chain as the lube is great for the inner links. KMCs instructions actually state never to immerse it in degreaser as it removes the lube from the inner bearings and can lead to cracking - personally though once it gets to a state there's so much gunk on it that a cloth can't deal with it I'll start degreasing and lubing afterwards.