Le Monde interactive doping graphic
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He's not completely clueless, but his estimates are consistently a lot higher than other people's and actual recorded values. There's a suspicion that he may doing this on purpose because Le Monde and others are paying for stats to support a doping agenda.Paulie W wrote:Clearly there are some serious methdological problems with Vayer's approach but I was interested to note that even in the science of sport article, linked above, which highlights these problems, the author still says: "Antoine Vayer knows about power output - he published the book I referred to in my previous analysis of Tour climbing power, and has a library of all the Tour climbs. He, more than anyone, knows how to look at a climb in context, and so his figures deserve more than out of hand dismissal". Is this just 'professional courtesy' on the part of this author because most people on this thread are suggesting Vayer has no credibility at all?
If you begin with an agenda (as Vayer) then your estimates are likely (consciously or subconciously) to be biased towards confirming that agenda. Science should be about the search for truth, not the confirmation of you opinions.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Paulie W wrote:Clearly there are some serious methdological problems with Vayer's approach but I was interested to note that even in the science of sport article, linked above, which highlights these problems, the author still says: "Antoine Vayer knows about power output - he published the book I referred to in my previous analysis of Tour climbing power, and has a library of all the Tour climbs. He, more than anyone, knows how to look at a climb in context, and so his figures deserve more than out of hand dismissal". Is this just 'professional courtesy' on the part of this author because most people on this thread are suggesting Vayer has no credibility at all?
Climb profiles etc so what!
Wind direction, wind speed, air temperature, air pressure, Humidity, riding solo, riding in a group etc etc.
Look here for power profiles http://www.srm.de/go.htm
Total horse shit. Fuller wants Pat out. Does he think that will slow riders down?0 -
Fuller couldn't care less how fast cyclists go or what drugs they take. He just cares about the UCI's ban on compression clothing in competition and his brand's profile.Squirrelpie wrote:Paulie W wrote:Clearly there are some serious methdological problems with Vayer's approach but I was interested to note that even in the science of sport article, linked above, which highlights these problems, the author still says: "Antoine Vayer knows about power output - he published the book I referred to in my previous analysis of Tour climbing power, and has a library of all the Tour climbs. He, more than anyone, knows how to look at a climb in context, and so his figures deserve more than out of hand dismissal". Is this just 'professional courtesy' on the part of this author because most people on this thread are suggesting Vayer has no credibility at all?
Climb profiles etc so what!
Wind direction, wind speed, air temperature, air pressure, Humidity, riding solo, riding in a group etc etc.
Look here for power profiles http://www.srm.de/go.htm
Total horse shoot. Fuller wants Pat out. Does he think that will slow riders down?Twitter: @RichN950 -
Squirrelpie wrote:Paulie W wrote:Clearly there are some serious methdological problems with Vayer's approach but I was interested to note that even in the science of sport article, linked above, which highlights these problems, the author still says: "Antoine Vayer knows about power output - he published the book I referred to in my previous analysis of Tour climbing power, and has a library of all the Tour climbs. He, more than anyone, knows how to look at a climb in context, and so his figures deserve more than out of hand dismissal". Is this just 'professional courtesy' on the part of this author because most people on this thread are suggesting Vayer has no credibility at all?
Climb profiles etc so what!
Wind direction, wind speed, air temperature, air pressure, Humidity, riding solo, riding in a group etc etc.
Look here for power profiles http://www.srm.de/go.htm
Total horse shoot. Fuller wants Pat out. Does he think that will slow riders down?
Talking of Jaimie-with-2-i's-Fuller, his company's name and advertising is plastered all over the thing. And he's all over Twitter, challenging people like Dan Lloyd who are asking very valid questions about gaps in the methodology, and pleading/demanding (tone varies according to who he's talking to) that they read the report.
Fuller seems to have invested a lot of money and an inordinate amount of personal time considering he's supposed to have a day job running a company, in the business of shouting out that the sport is filthy - and yes, I know he has that suit against the UCI which is apparently still in the hopper of the Swiss legal system.
The UCI's ban on compression clothing having nothing to do with this at all. Of course.
When dimspace tweeted a few days ago his concern about the SKINS logo being used so prominantly for an anti-Pat poster, his written response to dimspace was totally OTT, borderline Digger-abusive - Fuller spelt out with the usual amount of anglo-saxon swearing his feelings that because he's put so much money into anti-UCI and anti-Pat, that he can do whatever he whatever he likes and market SKINS in connection with it, as much as he wants.0 -
If the sport is so filthy, why then does he so desperately want to get his brand into the sport? I would have thought such an association would damage his brand image.Correlation is not causation.0
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Above The Cows wrote:If the sport is so filthy, why then does he so desperately want to get his brand into the sport? I would have thought such an association would damage his brand image.
Well, its certainly not because he loves the sport as an active participant, though god knows he could benefit from the exercise - have you seen pictures of him?
(miaow...)0 -
Had a quick look at the Twitter discussion between Dan Lloyd and Fuller.
I didnt realise Dan LLoyd presented Screen Test in the 1970s:
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Richmond Racer wrote:Talking of Jaimie-with-2-i's-Fuller, his company's name and advertising is plastered all over the thing. And he's all over Twitter, challenging people like Dan Lloyd who are asking very valid questions about gaps in the methodology, and pleading/demanding (tone varies according to who he's talking to) that they read the report.
I got involved a bit with that on Twitter last night (@misforturob is me), Fuller was very defensive about it. When I suggested all the numbers were meaningless without errors he again implored me to read the full document (send it to me for free and I might but I'm not spending $10 on pseudoscience and Skins ads!) and quoted that error figure of 2% which is laughable. I would be surprised if they could estimate each rider's weight to within +/- 2%, let alone the other factors such as temperature, wind, humidity, road conditions, in a group or solo, overall length of stage etc etc.0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:Above The Cows wrote:If the sport is so filthy, why then does he so desperately want to get his brand into the sport? I would have thought such an association would damage his brand image.
Well, its certainly not because he loves the sport as an active participant, though god knows he could benefit from the exercise - have you seen pictures of him?
(miaow...)
Did he and Pat have a falling out over some biscuits at fat camp?
Double miaow.Correlation is not causation.0 -
r0bh wrote:Richmond Racer wrote:Talking of Jaimie-with-2-i's-Fuller, his company's name and advertising is plastered all over the thing. And he's all over Twitter, challenging people like Dan Lloyd who are asking very valid questions about gaps in the methodology, and pleading/demanding (tone varies according to who he's talking to) that they read the report.
I got involved a bit with that on Twitter last night (@misforturob is me), Fuller was very defensive about it. When I suggested all the numbers were meaningless without errors he again implored me to read the full document (send it to me for free and I might but I'm not spending $10 on pseudoscience and Skins ads!) and quoted that error figure of 2% which is laughable. I would be surprised if they could estimate each rider's weight to within +/- 2%, let alone the other factors such as temperature, wind, humidity, road conditions, in a group or solo, overall length of stage etc etc.
I've just had a look at your exchange (sorry for being nosey), and Fuller's being disengenous in the extreme with this reply to you and Dan Lloyd and leguape:
SKINS Chairman @jaimiefuller 12h
@leguape @misforturob @daniellloyd1 @inrng agree but data still stacks up,never meant for court. just another tool to focus test/investigate
Fuller's going around shouting that this report proves that there are still 'issues' and furthermore Vayer has been quoted (am just trying to find the quote) as claiming that this report provides the equivalent conclusive evidence as the USADA report did re Armstrong.0 -
You're completely missing the joke there Paulie. The top picture (Lloyd's twitter pic) is actually a photo of Gordon Burns, presenter of Krypton Factor who looks remarkably like Lloyd - more so tha Michael Rodd.Paulie W wrote:Had a quick look at the Twitter discussion between Dan Lloyd and Fuller.
I didnt realise Dan LLoyd presented Screen Test in the 1970s:Twitter: @RichN950 -
Richmond Racer wrote:r0bh wrote:Richmond Racer wrote:Talking of Jaimie-with-2-i's-Fuller, his company's name and advertising is plastered all over the thing. And he's all over Twitter, challenging people like Dan Lloyd who are asking very valid questions about gaps in the methodology, and pleading/demanding (tone varies according to who he's talking to) that they read the report.
I got involved a bit with that on Twitter last night (@misforturob is me), Fuller was very defensive about it. When I suggested all the numbers were meaningless without errors he again implored me to read the full document (send it to me for free and I might but I'm not spending $10 on pseudoscience and Skins ads!) and quoted that error figure of 2% which is laughable. I would be surprised if they could estimate each rider's weight to within +/- 2%, let alone the other factors such as temperature, wind, humidity, road conditions, in a group or solo, overall length of stage etc etc.
I've just had a look at your exchange (sorry for being nosey), and Fuller's being disengenous in the extreme with this reply to you and Dan Lloyd and leguape:
SKINS Chairman @jaimiefuller 12h
@leguape @misforturob @daniellloyd1 @inrng agree but data still stacks up,never meant for court. just another tool to focus test/investigate
Fuller's going around shouting that this report proves that there are still 'issues' and furthermore Vayer has been quoted (am just trying to find the quote) as claiming that this report provides the equivalent conclusive evidence as the USADA report did re Armstrong.
Exactly, if it was "never meant for court" don't point the finger at specific people. Especially when some of those people will have SRM files that can potentially blow the numbers published in his report out of the water!0 -
RichN95 wrote:
You're completely missing the joke there Paulie. The top picture (Lloyd's twitter pic) is actually a photo of Gordon Burns, presenter of Krypton Factor who looks remarkably like Lloyd - more so tha Michael Rodd.Paulie W wrote:Had a quick look at the Twitter discussion between Dan Lloyd and Fuller.
I didnt realise Dan LLoyd presented Screen Test in the 1970s:
Ah, OK :oops:0 -
Interesting comments by Fred Grappe on the study:
'But Frederick Grappe (coach recognized in the FDJ), who also works extensively with the calculation of watts, we must remain cautious. According to him, the challenge lies in the interpretation of data. "The formula works, its calculations are ultimately only basic physics. But we must be careful because it is very popularized and oriented. Fact, I refused to write in this book. To me, the fact of establish thresholds that would define a doped or not is not objective. by cons, from such work it would be wise to establish a physiological passport. as the biological passport would define the limits of a runner, but here in terms of power.'
Original quote in French here:
'Mais pour Frédéric Grappe (entraineur reconnu au sein de l'équipe FDJ), qui lui aussi travaille beaucoup avec le calcul des watts, il faut rester prudent. Selon lui, l'enjeu se situe dans l'interprétation des données. "La formule marche, ses calculs ne sont finalement que de la physique élémentaire. Mais il faut rester prudent car c'est très vulgarisé et orienté. J'ai d'ailleurs refusé d'écrire dans ce livre. Pour moi, le fait d'établir des seuils qui permettraient de définir un dopé ou non n'est pas objectif. Par contre, à partir d'un tel travail il serait judicieux de mettre en place un passeport physiologique. Comme le passeport biologique il définirait les limites d'un coureur, mais ici sur le plan de la puissance".0 -
r0bh wrote:Exactly, if it was "never meant for court" don't point the finger at specific people. Especially when some of those people will have SRM files that can potentially blow the numbers published in his report out of the water!
Is it true that these files are in a relatively simple format allowing trivial editing of the data to show whatever you want? If so, the cynics will reject as fake any data which doesn't fit their preferred scenario....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
Why bother as he was no more dirty than Lemond or others of that time but unfortunately the EPO magic riders came.andyp wrote:deejay will be along shortly to tell us how Indurain was just a freak of nature and never even saw a dose of EPO, never mind take one.
I have only been asking for evidence to support your view but you or anybody else it seems, still can't find it.
This article, it has been said is B/S. and I think this quote is suitable for you.RichN95 wrote:If you begin with an agenda (as Vayer) then your estimates are likely (consciously or subconciously) to be biased towards confirming that agenda. Science should be about the search for truth, not the confirmation of you opinions.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
Fisticuffs on Twitter today between Romain Bardet and Vayer after Bardet called him out about the publication of his 'study'. It's kind of entertaining if you speak French. I like Bardet even more now.Squirrelpie wrote:It's Vayer alright and it horse pooh. In the 80s I remember riders strung out riding in the wind half the day then struggling up the final climb. In the 90s they did the same but flew up the climbs. The peloton seems to be together till the final climb these days before a GC rider places him self in the wind and often that's not before the last 3k. Big difference in watt output between on the front and in the pack.
http://www.joomag.com/magazine/alternat ... 1370594539
Full report available for free? no but for only $10. Full of skins adds, oh Jamie Fuller and the not so secret agenda, :roll: teams up with doping doctor who can only imagine doping being capable of creating grate performances. (showing his limited capabilities as performance scientist) The clinic will lap this up wont they?0 -
SRM files for Nibali at the tour found here
http://www.srm.de/index.php/it/srm-blog ... ce?start=5
Numbers not at all magic and he is riding with people questioned in that magazine0
