Counting down laps in road race - how can it go wrong?

Herbsman

Hi All,

I'd be interested to hear from any organisers or volunteers who have been put in charge of the lap board at road races (not circuit races).

I saw some riders recently have what could have possibly been a winning breakaway taken away from them after one of the final few laps was done twice due to the number on the lap board not being changed. The race was, for example 35 laps, however due to the cock up they did 36 laps, and the break was caught after 35 laps were completed. They were swallowed up by the bunch after they'd 'won'.

I'm just curious to know how lap counting can go wrong. I considered the possibility of (a) dropped riders who continue to go around the circuit chasing the bunch being mistaken for breakaway riders, and/or (b) breakaway riders being mistaken for dropped riders but I sill can't quite work out how that would confuse the person in charge of the lap board. Regardless of whether there is a breakaway or a group of dropped riders chasing the back of the bunch, surely you would just change the number on the board every time the following car comes past the finish line?

Any thoughts from people with experience much appreciated as I just can't think how it could happen!

maryka

In a race with 35 laps (presumably a pretty short course) you need a following car? Why?

The board is changed with the lead riders, not the following car anyway. If the lead riders lap the bunch, the bunch does one fewer lap.

I think it depends on the circuit and the type of race and the level of the racing. E.g., Tour Series, I'm sure they get it right. Local weekday crit on a course with 2 or 3 different races running at the same time and daylight not guaranteed, then there's some room to change around the lap board.

I've done crits where the board only comes out with 5 to go, this is due to fading light and the organisers trying to get as much race as possible but not wanting to risk the race being slow and finishing in near darkness. Other crits I've done have a lap board which is sometimes changed to add or subtract a lap depending on what's happening -- e.g., if the break is about to lap the bunch, the last thing you want is a mass sprint finish with everyone, so you might end it a lap earlier or later.

All things being equal, yes the lap board is not a hard job to do and should be done correctly. Whether or not that person is "confused" is a different matter. What you find confusing may just be what the experienced lap board judges/comms do every week.

Herbsman

maryka wrote:

In a race with 35 laps (presumably a pretty short course) you need a following car? Why?

I don't know what number of laps a following car is needed. Not sure if that's relevant or not, I just chose a random number as an example (that's why I said 'for example'!) to illustrate the point that an extra lap was done, thus giving the bunch more time to catch the break.

The board is changed with the lead riders, not the following car anyway. If the lead riders lap the bunch, the bunch does one fewer lap.

Eh? Surely you want to change it after everyone has gone past? Otherwise for example after the lead riders see 5 laps to go on the board, and it then gets changed, then the bunch sees 4 laps to go, when they actually have 5 to do? Doesn't make sense to me. :?

I think it depends on the circuit and the type of race and the level of the racing. E.g., Tour Series, I'm sure they get it right. Local weekday crit on a course with 2 or 3 different races running at the same time and daylight not guaranteed, then there's some room to change around the lap board.

I've done crits where the board only comes out with 5 to go, this is due to fading light and the organisers trying to get as much race as possible but not wanting to risk the race being slow and finishing in near darkness. Other crits I've done have a lap board which is sometimes changed to add or subtract a lap depending on what's happening -- e.g., if the break is about to lap the bunch, the last thing you want is a mass sprint finish with everyone, so you might end it a lap earlier or later.

There was just one race - a road race not a crit. Distance rather than x amount of time + 5 laps type affair. No chance of fading light. I can understand why a lap would be subtracted if there was risk of it getting dark, but why would you add a lap when riders have gone up the road very late in the race? Surely that's unfair on them as it just means that after they've chosen their moment to give it everything they've got for the last (e.g.) 5 minutes of the race, they've suddenly got (e.g.) 10 minutes to go, twice as much time for the bunch to reel them back in and thus less chance of staying away.

All things being equal, yes the lap board is not a hard job to do and should be done correctly. Whether or not that person is "confused" is a different matter. What you find confusing may just be what the experienced lap board judges/comms do every week.

From what I gather one of the riders involved has contacted the organizer who has said the lap counter did make an error and that it's happened in a previous race on the same circuit (presumably the same bloke). However neither he nor I are any the wiser as to how such a mistake can happen!

Pross

A road race with 36 laps sounds like a circuit race / crit to me!

Pross

I would say the board needs to change as soon as the main bunch goes through. A lap is going to take about 5 minutes, you can't leave it until everyone has gone through. Just get a decent length course and the riders can then count the laps for themselves.

maryka

I think I was unclear when I said the lap board changes with the lead riders. What happens is the lap board is changed immediately after everyone comes through (if there's a break, or the bunch if everyone is together). But everyone finishes on the same lap. So if the break laps the bunch immediately before the lap board, the bunch will see the board go from e.g., 6 to 4 whereas the break will see 5 to go as they pass which is then changed to 4 in time for the bunch to come past. If that makes sense?

Regarding lead/comm cars, only long crit courses use them in my experience. But you're talking about a road race anyway, so that's moot. A road race gets cars obviously!

Yes, adding laps is strange and should only really happen in the case of a crit where the board comes out with 5 laps to go, in the sense that the board comes out later than expected -- not that extra laps are added! But that does sometimes happen, it comes out with 5 to go in a crit and then the next lap it's still 5 to go... for some reason.

buckles

Pross wrote:

A road race with 36 laps sounds like a circuit race / crit to me!

Herbsman wrote:

I just chose a random number as an example (that's why I said 'for example'!) to illustrate the point that an extra lap was done, thus giving the bunch more time to catch the break.

Forget the randomly chosen number of 36 , I was in the race, it was 10 laps.

Pross

Buckles wrote:

Pross wrote:

A road race with 36 laps sounds like a circuit race / crit to me!

Herbsman wrote:

I just chose a random number as an example (that's why I said 'for example'!) to illustrate the point that an extra lap was done, thus giving the bunch more time to catch the break.

Forget the randomly chosen number of 36 , I was in the race, it was 10 laps.

Makes more sense. 10 laps is reasonable. In that case all I can think is they messed up somewhere and tried to correct it which in reality would have compounded the mistake. That said most riders have computers and would know how long is supposed to be left.

buckles

That's the thing - there was supposed to be 2 laps left when it first showed 2 laps to go. It then showed 2 laps to go again. We did 11 laps instead of 10.

AK_jnr

I know its not a road race but in a crit today I nearly come a cropper.
The guy held the 1 lap to go board so I attacked the breakaway group I was in only for the guy to then put it back out next lap round!
I should of been wary as he didnt ring the bell first time but I went in to the red a lap earlier than planned.
Luckily it didnt make a difference and I finished in the same position.

Monty Dog

Happened to me once - it was pi$$ing-down at Dunsfold for a Surrey League RR, everyone else buggered-off as I was the only one wearing full waterproofs so ended up looking after the lap board. Standing for 2 hours isn't exactly a bundle of laughs and it's easy to loose track when there were three or groups including lapped riders - it was too wet to write anything down plus there was no shelter. Everyone ended up riding an extra lap. A few moaners at the end whinged about it - when asked how many races they'd marshalled / organised and stood in the pissing rain for 2 hours for the benefit of others....

dru

unless its electronic - its a 'human operated system'

The number of times you start a race (say 30 laps) and the board is put out showing 30 laps to go... and what happens - its not changed to 29 as soon as the riders start.

The other thing is - you ride to the bell and get the bell with a lap to go - if it didn't ring - then you ain't on the last lap..

dennisn

Herbsman wrote:

I'd be interested to hear from any organisers or volunteers who have been put in charge of the lap board ......

I'm just curious to know how lap counting can go wrong.

Any thoughts from people with experience much appreciated as I just can't think how it could happen!

Two words. Human error.

I've been in charge of and chief card flipper of hundreds of local and regional races.
Now don't take this wrong but if you had asked me that question at a race I most likely would have to have been restrained from the response I would liked to have given. Much like I'm restraining myself now.

In the nicest possible tone I am going to urge you to put yourself in the card flippers position or the race directors job and find out just how imperfect things can be at the start finish line.

Also, I'm thinking that you were not watching a pro race and the people "working" this particular race were meer humans.

Herbsman

dennisn wrote:

Now don't take this wrong but if you had asked me that question at a race I most likely would have to have been restrained from the response I would liked to have given. Much like I'm restraining myself now.

People ask questions because they want to know things. I'm not quite sure what's wrong with that. It's curiosity and it's just as human as making counting errors.

Maybe I've taken your comments the wrong way but why would you need to restrain yourself while answering a simple question to satisfy someone's curiosity? Do you feel this way about everyone who asks questions?

What would you actually have done if I had asked you that question at a race, and you hadn't restrained yourself? Chastised me? Sworn at me? Punched me?

Herbsman

Oh, you're American. Well, that kind of explains it. Probably would have shot me.

Herbsman

Dru wrote:

The other thing is - you ride to the bell and get the bell with a lap to go - if it didn't ring - then you ain't on the last lap..

So what are you saying - no-one should try to win solo until the bell rings? No-one should try and get away until the bell lap? Ridiculous....

dennisn

Herbsman wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Now don't take this wrong but if you had asked me that question at a race I most likely would have to have been restrained from the response I would liked to have given. Much like I'm restraining myself now.

People ask questions because they want to know things. I'm not quite sure what's wrong with that. It's curiosity and it's just as human as making counting errors.

Maybe I've taken your comments the wrong way but why would you need to restrain yourself while answering a simple question to satisfy someone's curiosity? Do you feel this way about everyone who asks questions?

What would you actually have done if I had asked you that question at a race, and you hadn't restrained yourself? Chastised me? Sworn at me? Punched me?

Just sounded like you wanted perfection. Not gonna happen. I have flipped my fair share of lap cards at the wrong time or once too many times. The only way to avoid mistakes is to not do anything at all. Mistakes and bad calls in sports are, in my opinion, just part of the game at times. Once again I urge you get out there, flip a few cards yourself, and find out, for yourself, just how imperfect people are.

As for what would I have done? Probably gotten all p*ssed off and went off on you with some sort of rant about not getting paid enough for this(nothing). Or I might have handed you the whistle, bell, clipboard, and lap cards and said " your turn".

maryka

Herbsman wrote:

Oh, you're American. Well, that kind of explains it. Probably would have shot me.

Most idiotic comment I've read on BR forums in a long time and that's saying a lot.

:roll:

Herbsman

Lost your sense of humour?

It wasn't supposed to be a serious comment

shockedsoshocked

Rode the same lap 3 times on a 8 lap (9mile circuit) once. Lots of groaning ensued.

dennisn

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

Rode the same lap 3 times on a 8 lap (9mile circuit) once. Lots of groaning ensued.

I have got to say that that would be the worst case I've ever heard of. A lap or two on a short course 30 lap crit? Yeah, it can happen despite the best of intentions, but forgetting 3 laps in an 8 lap race is called falling asleep at the wheel. What's that old saying? What can happen will.

dru

Herbsman wrote:

Dru wrote:

The other thing is - you ride to the bell and get the bell with a lap to go - if it didn't ring - then you ain't on the last lap..

So what are you saying - no-one should try to win solo until the bell rings? No-one should try and get away until the bell lap? Ridiculous....

Just seen this.

No - not ridiculous at all, and I've not said anything about waiting until a lap to go to make your break.

A lap board should show either every lap or has been said, will be brought out with 5 or 3 laps to go in instances of an approx timed race (say 45min or an hour) (and will be mentioned at the pre-race briefing)

In the perfect world, the count down will always be right, but as you are nearly always using humans to operate the lap board, bell etc etc mistakes do happen, particulalry when different people have different systems for doing things.

Herbsman

What did you mean 'you ride to the bell' then? :?

dennisn

Dru wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

Dru wrote:

The other thing is - you ride to the bell and get the bell with a lap to go - if it didn't ring - then you ain't on the last lap..

So what are you saying - no-one should try to win solo until the bell rings? No-one should try and get away until the bell lap? Ridiculous....

A lap board should show either every lap or has been said, will be brought out with 5 or 3 laps to go in instances of an approx timed race (say 45min or an hour) (and will be mentioned at the pre-race briefing)

In the perfect world, the count down will always be right, but as you are nearly always using humans to operate the lap board, bell etc etc mistakes do happen, particulalry when different people have different systems for doing things.

Our club uses a lap board that requires someone to flip it after each lap and therein lies the chance for a mistake or two. It's nothing that the riders can't deal with on a short(less than a mile) course when you're doing 25 or 30 laps.
However on some of our longer(6 to 8 mile) courses(say 5 to 8 laps), making sure the cards are flipped becomes much more critical.
The club would love to have a big countdown timer at the short course crit's, then just do an hour plus 5 laps. Problem is the club doesn't have a ton of money for these things. One of the members has kind of donated a camera
and we are now able to video the sprint laps and the finish itself for ease of scoring. Who knows. a digital clock could be in our future.