I'm in trouble - spokes

annoyingtwit

I've tried to be a cyclist before, but always run into technical issues. Previously it was always the gears that were the spanner in the works, so this time I bought a single speed bike.

However, I have spoke problems. Previously, three spokes broke on my rear wheel, and it went out of true. I took it to the shop, they replaced the spokes, and trued the wheel. A few days later, another spoke breaks, and now another one has. All on the rear wheel. I can't afford to have the rear wheel fixed every week. So, I'm looking into doing it myself.

Currently I don't have a spoke tool. Clearly I need to buy one. I've done the best job I can to measure the size of the spokes on the wheel. From the bend on the spoke to the bottom of the nipples is 266mm, and looking at one of the broken spokes, 16mm of spoke is inside the nipple. That makes 282mm. The rim I have is one of the 'deep' ones with the nipples well inside the rim in holes, with a rim tape keeping the tube well away from them. As far as I can see, that means that if the spokes are slightly the wrong size by 2mm or so, that there won't be a problem and I won't need to file down the spoke if it slightly protrudes from the nipple.

Is the Halfords spoke tool OK? This one: http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... yId_242558

So, I buy a spoke tool and two replacement 282mm spokes. I try to work out how to get the nipple through the hole in the rim (stick it on a screwdriver with a blob of thick grease or even blu-tac?). Thread the spoke through the hole by reverse engineering the threading pattern to identify which hole, and use the spoke tool to tighten it up to approximately the same tension as before. Do this for both missing spokes, and hope like hell the wheel is still true.

Do I have much chance of success? Or am I doomed to pay out £16 a week to have the wheel fixed all the time. Or have to buy a new wheel for a bike only a few months old?

Edit: If I don't have many tools yet, would the 16-in-1 tool currently sold by Aldi a good idea? Personally I think that it looks like it will be tricky to use, even as an 'on the road' tool, and I'm probably better off buying a few individual tools to use.

owenlars

I think that the consensus opinion would be that if spokes keep breaking then there is probably something seriously wrong with the wheel that merely replacing spokes won't cure. As it is new I would think that the spokes weren't tensioned equally around the wheel. If it was sold like this the wheel should be replaced if factory built or rebuilt if hand built.

Read this Sheldon Brown article for details on wheel building.

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

annoyingtwit

owenlars wrote:

I think that the consensus opinion would be that if spokes keep breaking then there is probably something seriously wrong with the wheel that merely replacing spokes won't cure. As it is new I would think that the spokes weren't tensioned equally around the wheel. If it was sold like this the wheel should be replaced if factory built or rebuilt if hand built.

Read this Sheldon Brown article for details on wheel building.

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

I bought the bike online in February. The seller of the bike basically told me to <something> off when I queried the spokes not being tensioned properly when the bicycle was sold. In a polite way. They said that it was in their listings that the bike would need some adjustment, but I note that the listing for the same bike (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIKING-FIXED- ... 4849559754) doesn't say anything about wheels with improperly tensioned spokes, only that the brakes may need some adjustment, etc.

If I was to get all 'Consumer Action Group' then in theory I could sue them through the small claims court, but like many things, it probably isn't worth my while.

If the wheel needs replacing, then I think I can still replace a few spokes, as the practice will help me gain skills. I'm now regretting not buying a better bike second hand. I bought my son a second hand Carrera Subway 1, and it's all round a much better and more robust bike than mine, and cost half what mine cost. if the spokes keep breaking, then if I've successfully replaced a few spokes and trued slight problems with the wheel, then that'll be an additional skill I'll have which I'm sure will be useful in the future.

cycleclinic

If it's a second hand purchase you cannot claim anyway as second hand bikes are sold as seen. Spoke fatigue eventually it is considered wear and tear, it happens on some wheels sooner than on others though. Yours may be the sooner kind. Replace all the spokes on the side that is breaking as a minium and rebuild the wheel. You will need a dishin tool some kind of tring jig and spoke tension meter to do a proper job otherwise neven tension may result.

annoyingtwit

The bicycle was purchased brand new.

16mm

You could do it yourself.
1) get all the correct length spokes. You can take a spoke out, measure it, and put it back. Tighten it back up to the same tension and you wheel will be straight again. To test this always mark the spoke and keep the wheel in the bike to check it's straight.
Note: there will be 2 lengths of spoke, for each side of the hub, but on a singlespeed they may be very close in length.
2) You'll need a tool to remove the freewheel, or pay a shop to do this.
3)Replace the spokes one at a time, bringing the new spoke up to tension and checking the wheel is true before moving to the next. Make sure the new spoke goes under the spokes in the same way the old one did. The spokes cross and 'lean' on each other a bit.
4) Repeat until you've replaced all the spokes.
5) If you've tensioned everything along the way your wheel should be round and true, and laced correctly.

You can buy spokes online at sjs cycles. Get DT Swiss ones.

MichaelW

Some more wheelbuilding wisdom here
In a good wheel the spokes are evenly tensioned and the rim is true in radial and axial directions.
In a bad wheel, the rim is crooked to start with so you have to compromise between trueness and even tension and you will never get the optimum strength.
When replacing individual spokes, you can leave the old spoke nipple on the rim (if it is the same guage) and just feed in a new one. I have mixed plain and butted and different guages on the same wheel.
Prestress all the spokes and retrue.
I prefer plastic Spokeys to the metal keys. DT spokes are good, as are Sapim and Wheelsmith.

ugo.santalucia

Classic case of buy cheap buy twice... cheap bikes still have spokes made of low quality steel, which fatigues very early. Good wheels have spokes made of high quality high tensile stainless steel, which have a long fatigue life.
Once 2-3 spokes pop, it is pointless insisting in fixing the wheel... you either rebuild it with decent spokes or you give up on it and get a new one

annoyingtwit

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Classic case of buy cheap buy twice... cheap bikes still have spokes made of low quality steel, which fatigues very early. Good wheels have spokes made of high quality high tensile stainless steel, which have a long fatigue life.

Agreed. In hindsight of course. I've posted here several times that I should have bought a better quality second hand bike rather than a cheaper new bike. But unfortunately I am now where I am.

Once 2-3 spokes pop, it is pointless insisting in fixing the wheel... you either rebuild it with decent spokes or you give up on it and get a new one

Maybe, but I feel that if I can't do anything else, I'll practice on this wheel. I've purchased a spoke tool, two new spokes, and have put them in the wheel. I found it very difficult to thread the spokes through without bending them. One straightened out when it was tensioned, the other still has a noticeable bend in it where it threads under another spoke. I guess there are some tricks to threading the spoke in without having to bend it. Youtube videos seem to show people threading in new spokes which magically went into convenient locations with no effort. In my case, to thread the spoke through sent it automatically in directions where I had to bend it to stop it going places I shouldn't.

The result is that the wheel is now complete again. There is a very, very, slight wobble. So the wheel is only 98% true or whatever. I think it's slightly more true than it was after the two spokes broke, so at least I haven't made things worse by meddling.

I'll see how long it lasts before the next spoke breaks. I suspect that this saga will be continuing.

ugo.santalucia

AnnoyingTwit wrote:

I suspect that this saga will be continuing.

Yes, and the advice will be the same

annoyingtwit

ugo.santalucia wrote:

AnnoyingTwit wrote:

I suspect that this saga will be continuing.

Yes, and the advice will be the same

I've adopted a policy of replacing with silver spokes (as a LBS did for the first three broken spokes - fixed as one job). Even random bike shop spokes feel stronger than the black spokes that came with the bike. I'm interested to see if any of the replacement spokes will break, or whether it will just be the original black ones.

Mindermast

With uneven spoke tension, breaking spokes are quite usual. More spokes will break because of the now even more uneven distribution of the load. Another cause of trouble is too low tension, which allows the spokes to move too much. Too high tension breaks the threads of the nipples or deforms the rim - or both.

By the way, you don't need to bend a spoke while inserting it into the hub, except if you don't want to remove the cassette. It is a bit tricky to find the best way around the other spokes without much bending, but that is a matter of experience. Building wheels and truing them is no rocket science, but there are many caveats. It is a good idea to learn it, because truing is expensive. But before spending more money on this wheel, you should have another chat with the seller. When that is settled, get a cheap set of wheels from ebay for practice. And then do yourself a favour and also buy a trueing stand, even a fairly cheap one will be more fun than trueing the wheels directly on your bike.

annoyingtwit

I did my best to match the tension of the existing spokes. One tip I read on ebay was to go around and 'ping' the spokes and see if they ring at the same frequency. There was some variation in frequency. The wheel I'm having trouble with is a flip flop hub single speed rear wheel.

I've also had the idea that it would be useful to learn how to true wheels as it will most likely save me money in the long term. I do have the remains of my previous bike still, which has two complete wheels. I could practice on them. I'm tempted to actually do a rebuild on this bike solely for the practice. However, there are some parts that I need that I don't know the name of, and hence can't yet buy. The cassette on this bike (it has gears) is very worn, so replacing it would be useful and I'd learn how to remove a cassette, which I presume would be the same method as removing the freewheel on the single speed.

dennisn

AnnoyingTwit wrote:

I did my best to match the tension of the existing spokes. One tip I read on ebay was to go around and 'ping' the spokes and see if they ring at the same frequency. There was some variation in frequency.

Three words apply here. Spoke tension meter. Don't build a wheel without one. When building wheels don't THINK that this or that is correct KNOW what is. Otherwise you are most likely wasting your time and your money.

annoyingtwit

As a follow up to this thread - over a month later no more spokes have broken, and the wheel has stayed very nearly true.

16mm

AnnoyingTwit wrote:

As a follow up to this thread - over a month later no more spokes have broken, and the wheel has stayed very nearly true.

Excellent news!

annoyingtwit

Three and a half years later, the wheels are still usable. Rear wheel spokes broke occasionally, but less and less often. I don't think I have replaced a spoke in the last year. However, while they aren't worn out the wheels are looking older and older. I've bought a Park Tools wheel truing stand (only the TS-8 cheap one) and plan to rebuild the wheels not because of the spokes breaking - but simply because the wheels look worn. And are pretty awful quality wheels in general, though they function.

I've not had a broken spoke on the front wheel.

Moonbiker

Worn?




http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/11173438 ... 931&crdt=0

This is handy for measuring rim wear.

Much below 1.0mm thickness probably means new time for new rims


Buying new wheels may well be cheaper than re building them etc.

keef66

Moonbiker wrote:

Worn?




http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/11173438 ... 931&crdt=0

This is handy for measuring rim wear.

Much below 1.0mm thickness probably means new time for new rims

I have one of those. Curiously satisfying to use. And reassuring to find my nearly 10 year old rims are still fine; - I was starting to doubt Shimano's wear indicator...

ugo.santalucia

keef66 wrote:

I have one of those. Curiously satisfying to use. And reassuring to find my nearly 10 year old rims are still fine; - I was starting to doubt Shimano's wear indicator...

The problem with those cheap Ebay ones is that they are as accurate as an educated guess

Bobbinogs

The sprung calipers do mean a lot of guess work as they cannot accurately read across the whole width of the brake track. Ideally, one should keep everything nice and perpendicular but rim design makes this impossible since, even before half way down the brake track, one usually runs into the internal tube bed. Hence, I use the calipers as a 'guide', nothing more.

Is it just me or are we having a few dead cat bounces on these threads :-)

keef66

ugo.santalucia wrote:

keef66 wrote:

I have one of those. Curiously satisfying to use. And reassuring to find my nearly 10 year old rims are still fine; - I was starting to doubt Shimano's wear indicator...

The problem with those cheap Ebay ones is that they are as accurate as an educated guess

I did try it on a range of things of known thickness / diameter and found it to be pretty accurate. As a quick check when changing tyres / tubes it's certainly easier than faffing with bits of bent spoke and a regular caliper.

keef66

Bobbinogs wrote:

Is it just me or are we having a few dead cat bounces on these threads :-)

In this case the OP came back to update us:

"Three and a half years later, the wheels are still usable..."

annoyingtwit

keef66 wrote:

Bobbinogs wrote:

Is it just me or are we having a few dead cat bounces on these threads :-)

In this case the OP came back to update us:

"Three and a half years later, the wheels are still usable..."

Yes. I was told that once spokes start breaking, that's it and it will go on forever. I thought it reasonable to come back and state that things settled down and spokes had stopped breaking. Neither wheel is particularly straight though, as particularly early on I didn't really know what I was doing. One rear wheel spoke is incorrectly threaded, though they're not far out of true and the bike is ridable.

The rims do have a wear indicator, but there has always been a nasty seam on the rims which I can feel under braking. It's never worn away. In general I don't like the wheels. When I built a wheel for another bike (sadly now stolen) the DT Swiss straight pull spokes seemed firmer and more robust than what's on my single speed.

Re: Cheaper to buy a wheel than rebuild - I have bought some cheap 105 front hubs on ebay. With £22 or so for a mavic open elite rim + maybe £13 if I'm lucky for DT Swiss spokes, I get a reasonable quality wheel for what I'd pay for a ready made wheel with much lower spec components. For the rear wheel, I'm thinking of re-using the Quando hub as it does seem to work fine.

Moonbiker

Gauge is pretty acurate, it matches my digital caliper anyway.