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Canyon bike incorrect head angle ???

Glenn 10Glenn 10 Posts: 23
edited July 2013 in MTB general
Hi all,

I found that the geometry of my Canyon Nerve was not as it specified on the Canyon website. I think it is clear from this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBDbTirJNDA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I would like to hear your opinions.
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Posts

  • welshkevwelshkev Posts: 9,690
    it's wrong and yes they should update their specs and geometry chart.

    but does it affect the way you ride it/it's performance at all? if not then just ride it.

    but I guess it's up to you. if you were censored enough to measure it then it probably does affect you and I guess you could ask for your money back? :D (that's not a critisism btw)
  • EH_RobEH_Rob Posts: 1,134
    do they specify anywhere whether they measure head angle with or without sag?
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    They don't - but it could account for the difference.

    What year Nerve, and what model is it? I can't find it at all on the website.
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,757
    Forgive me if I missed it, but at no point did I see the fork removed and a correct measuremet made of the headtube angle....I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying I just didn't see it measured (the outside is not necesarily square with the bearing bore(s) which is the bit that matters).
  • ilovedirtilovedirt Posts: 5,798
    The head angle is actually measured off a flat line through the axles, not the ground, so you were actually measuring it incorrectly, and the head angle is probably correct.
    Production Privee Shan

    B'Twin Triban 5
  • bails87bails87 Posts: 12,998
    ilovedirt wrote:
    The head angle is actually measured off a flat line through the axles, not the ground, so you were actually measuring it incorrectly, and the head angle is probably correct.
    Assuming the same tyres, wouldn't the axles be at the same height as one another?
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • PlyphonPlyphon Posts: 433
    Wow I know MTBers get up on numbers quite a bit but this is taking it to the next level.

    Just ride the thing. Head angles are skewed all over the place once you start putting in odd PSI's and changing tyres, sag measurements etc anyway that theyre almost irrelevant.
  • benpinnickbenpinnick Posts: 4,148
    As per previous posts, head angle can be with or without sag. Most do it with as its generated from the frame designs that are done with sag included. Not saying this resolves the potential issue, just pointing that out :)
    A Flock of Birds
    + some other bikes.
  • jairajjairaj Posts: 3,009
    Can you get some to sit on the bike so it is sagged and remeasure the head angle?

    Also sometimes they also state the axle to crown length used when producing the geometry chart. You would hope that would be the same A2C of the fork they supply the bike with but worth double checking.
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    Also another degree or so off the head angle isn't going to make the stable descender you want. If you want that, I would get a differnt sort of bike.
  • adamfoadamfo Posts: 763
    edited May 2013
    The German magazine 'Mountainbike' measured a 2012 size large at 69.5 degrees using their test method.

    http://www.mountainbike-magazin.de/moun ... latt.2.htm

    They have measured hundreds of bikes so comparisons can easily be made because they have a set test procedure.
    This includes bottom bracket and head tube flex figures and stripped down frame weight.

    http://www.workscomponents.co.uk/ is a source of slacker headsets for those obsessed with head angles.
  • Glenn 10Glenn 10 Posts: 23
    Thank you for your responses.

    The reason I checked the head angle was that I felt the bike was jittery on fast decents. (nothing too technical)

    I am censored about these things in any case but especially when Canyon bikes can only be bought online and there is nothing to go by except the specification on their website. The bike is a Nerve XC 9.0 (2012) and cost €2400. I expected to get what I paid for and I spent alot of time researching my options before I purchased.

    30% sag on the front and 30% sag on the back means the bike will remain parallel to the ground.
    I know the bikes head angle will change as the bike is being ridden but it's not a very practical way for taking measurements. lol A downhill bike may dive to 72degrees after braking hard but I would not buy a downhill bike with a 72degree head angle.

    The fork is in line with the inside bore of the head. The head and fork are in line with the measuring tool that I used.
    Using an angle finder against the outside of head is Canyons official way of checking the head angle according to an "official report" that I got from them.(their words)
    This method is subject to many variables which is why I used trigonometry to varify the result of the angle finder. (Yes I am a nerd )

    The radius of both wheels are the same but I have also checked the angle using the line through the axels.

    Having the wheels on was more practical for the purpose of making the video. They are required to be on for checking the head angle with the angle finder in accordance with Canyons method.

    I would like to point out that the fork would have to be around 30mm shorter in order to change the angle by this amount.

    I only know what the head angle of my bike is so I can't comment on others.
  • Glenn 10Glenn 10 Posts: 23
    adamfo, thank you for the links.
  • stubsstubs Posts: 5,001
    Throw the angle dangler as far as you can, then ride the bike. 1 degree either way out will make about 0.00000000000000001 % to the bikes handling. If its bugging you so much buy an angle adjusting headset which will kick it out a degree or two. Still wont make a blind bit of difference to the handling though. A new tyre will do more for the handling, as for the jittery feeling have you played with the damping it makes a massive noticeable difference. Canyons generally need the rear shock to have plenty of rebound damping and about 10 psi more air than seems right to work best in my experience.
    Fig rolls: proof that god loves cyclists and that she wants us to do another lap
  • adamfoadamfo Posts: 763
    I checked the web archive snap-shot and the early 2012 Nerve XC 9 is indeed listed as 69 degrees

    http://web.archive.org/web/201205041928 ... tml?b=2560

    Generally what are the factory tolerances on frames, +/- half a degree ?

    I have a new Nerve AL 29. Canyon list the head at 70 degrees. Das Bike magazine measured it at 69.1 degrees and the other major German title at 68.5 degrees. Using a plumbline and protractor I get just under 70 degrees. You pays your money and you takes your choice !
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,757
    Well Glenn10 seems to have just turned up to post a whinge and then f'd off, maybe he works for trek/spesh/GT/Cube/Felt/Madison etc and is trying to harm Canyons burgeoning sales!
  • Glenn 10Glenn 10 Posts: 23
    stubs,
    I can see where your coming from and I bet others will agree with you but the technology plays a big part in my love for the sport.
    Why do companies bother making bikes with different head angles if it doesn't make a difference? I've heard companies claim that the latest bike has improved geometry but there would only be a difference of half a degree. If I didn't care about the finer things I would have kept my old bike that was less than a year old.
    Those angle sets are not cheap and I don't like the idea of having to spend more hard earned cash just to make the bike as it should be in any case so I may well have to follow your first bit of advice.

    adamfo,
    I don't know what the tolerances are but if 1.3degrees is within tolerance then a Canyon nerve could have a head angle of anything from 67.7 to 70.3 degrees.
  • Glenn 10Glenn 10 Posts: 23
    Well Glenn10 seems to have just turned up to post a whinge and then f'd off, maybe he works for trek/spesh/GT/Cube/Felt/Madison etc and is trying to harm Canyons burgeoning sales!

    No, still here whinging. For the record I don't work for a bike company but if I did it wouldn't change the head angle on this bike. Suggestions made by other members on this thread may help though.
  • gavstoriegavstorie Posts: 11
    It could just be a manufacturing anomaly...

    I would speak to the UK office and see what they have to say about it.. Send them a link to the video etc..
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,599
    There are really only three angles:
    Lycra clad XC racing snake whippet.
    Heroic stupidly slack DH macho type.
    Everything in between.

    Sounds like you are option 3
    I don't do smileys.

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  • stubsstubs Posts: 5,001
    cooldad wrote:
    There are really only three angles:
    Lycra clad XC racing snake whippet.
    Heroic stupidly slack DH macho type.
    Everything in between.

    Sounds like you are option 3

    This ^^^^^

    Everything else is marketing bollox
    Fig rolls: proof that god loves cyclists and that she wants us to do another lap
  • Glenn 10Glenn 10 Posts: 23
    gavstory,
    I tried that. That is why I made the video in the first place and also why I want other peoples opinion about the video. I think my result is pretty clear but Canyon deny my claim so maybe not.???

    cooldad, stubs,
    Maybe you are right but alot of people do care about these things.
  • adamfoadamfo Posts: 763
    Glenn 10 wrote:

    The reason I checked the head angle was that I felt the bike was jittery on fast decents. (nothing too technical)

    There are other things you can try. For example slacken the bike out by decreasing front sag and increasing the rear.
    Fit wider handlebars, try large tyres like Schwalbe Hans Dampf trailstars up front etc.

    http://www.offsetbushings.com/pages/how-they-work

    Your bike is a multiple group test winner in both the UK and Germany. This suggests to me you should also work on your riding technique !
  • jairajjairaj Posts: 3,009
    stubs wrote:
    1 degree either way out will make about 0.00000000000000001 % to the bikes handling.

    I don't agree with you here, I have u turn adjust forks and can definitely feel the difference between +/- 1 degree. I'm not saying the bike suddenly become un-ridable but I do feel the steering quicken up when running a steeper head angle and vice versa.
    adamfo wrote:
    There are other things you can try. For example slacken the bike out by decreasing front sag and increasing the rear.
    Fit wider handlebars, try large tyres like Schwalbe Hans Dampf trailstars up front etc.

    Agree with this though. The head angle is only one part of many that contributes to how a bike handles.
    adamfo wrote:
    Your bike is a multiple group test winner in both the UK and Germany. This suggests to me you should also work on your riding technique !

    Or suggests the importance of demoing bikes before you buy them. Just because a bunch of people say a bike is good doesn't mean you'll get on with and agree with them.
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    To the OP - you may well be right, your frame may be steeper than Canyon state. But their could be flaws in your measurements. What error bounds would you place on them?

    When using the angle finder there is only one place on the bike where you can measure it, as the headtube is round ie right at the front, and making sure any bulges ie ring reinforcement/butting are accounted for. Similarly when using the ruler against the tube as a diagonal - it has to be put there perfect. Note that fork legs are not always in the same plane as the headtube, as offset is built into the crown and/or droputs.

    Also having the same sag front and rear does not always mean the angles remain the same - the axle path of the rear and front are not the same - with this bike the rear is much more vertical than the front, which is of course, about 20 degrees back. But this will be offset if sag is done in percentage terms as the front has more travel.

    I would get it measured by an external source for your peace of mind. If you are confident it is wrong by this degree, it is up to Canyon to prove it is not the case with your model - they are obliged to pick the bike up and examine it at their expense. Under the sale of goods act you are not accepting the goods after examination.
  • mcnultycopmcnultycop Posts: 2,143
    I'm not sure SOGA would apply, based on the OP's accent and he has paid in Euros. I guess something similar would apply, SOGA isn't pan-European, is it?
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    If bought in the UK it applies - if Ireland, then the very similar:

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/co ... eland.html

    Canyon are retailing to the Uk and have a bas in the UK.
  • bennett_346bennett_346 Posts: 5,029
    jairaj wrote:
    stubs wrote:
    1 degree either way out will make about 0.00000000000000001 % to the bikes handling.

    I don't agree with you here, I have u turn adjust forks and can definitely feel the difference between +/- 1 degree. I'm not saying the bike suddenly become un-ridable but I do feel the steering quicken up when running a steeper head angle and vice versa.
    It's much more likely that you're noticing the drop in ride height, not the head angle. Or at the very most a combination.

    On it's own i think you'd struggle to notice 1 degree of change.
  • mcnultycopmcnultycop Posts: 2,143
    supersonic wrote:
    If bought in the UK it applies - if Ireland, then the very similar:

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/co ... eland.html

    Canyon are retailing to the Uk and have a bas in the UK.

    I knew you'd know that...
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