TT Zero
Comments
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I guessed you must be a recent convert. Check out some footage of the V4 two stroke Schwantz/Rainey/Lawson/Gardner/Doohan era for some real racing (or Schwantz and Rainey going at each other hammer and tongs at the '87 Transatlantic match races - with a £100,000 cash prize at stake - back in the days when they hated each other). Classic edge of the Sofa moments like Schwantz's "see god, then back off" outbraking move on rainey at Hockenheim in '93 (one of the numerous great big cojones tracks consigned to history, like the bonkers Salzburgring, Paul Ricard, Spa, Monza etc to be replaced with modern boring F1 car park circuits).0
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Oh, i see, you appear to be one of those "In my day..." types, who looks back at 30 years or more of something, then gets annoyed because the last 5 years don't hold as many exciting moments.
It's ok, a lot of people do that, especially once they give up on trying to convince themselves they're still young.
if it helps, I'm sorry to offend you by being an only slightly old codger, and i had no right to like something without investing a lifetime in it. I'll stop watching, and leave you to moan about dwindling audience figures whilst the authorised spectators, literally, grow old and die.0 -
I don't think he was moaning about you was he? I'd say it's fairly well recognised that most motorsports aren't a shadow on what they were 15-20 years ago. I've been watching F1 since about 1998 and it's absolutely shite now in comparison. If someone only started watching that 5 years ago i'd say the same as Kowalski has about MotoGP to them.
It's not an attack, it's just an observation more than anything.0 -
Ok, but this is the crudcatcher, right? God, this place was much better years ago...
Basically, I believe in the general sentiment of my post, that older anything is always looked at through rose tinted glasses. The rest of it was blown out of proportion with tongue firmly in cheek.
You should look for the manual, it's available on Amazon.0 -
Ok, except that moaning isn't humorous...
I sort of agree with what you meant but i truly believe than in general, enjoyment of most sports is dire compared to what it used to be. Even outside of motorsports you have things like winter sports which, for whatever reason, used to be far more popular than it is now, and a lot more enjoyable to watch.
I can never quite pinpoint why though, i just know that even my grandparents who've seen at least 50 years worth of tv coverage of most sports will tell you that it's been through general highs and lows, and right now seems to be one of those lows. I'm sure they'd say there's been more than one period in the past where certain sports have been bad for a few consecutive years so it's not just rose tinted glasses.0 -
YeehaaMcgee wrote:Oh, i see, you appear to be one of those "In my day..." types, who looks back at 30 years or more of something, then gets annoyed because the last 5 years don't hold as many exciting moments.
It's ok, a lot of people do that, especially once they give up on trying to convince themselves they're still young.
if it helps, I'm sorry to offend you by being an only slightly old codger, and i had no right to like something without investing a lifetime in it. I'll stop watching, and leave you to moan about dwindling audience figures whilst the authorised spectators, literally, grow old and die.
Time of the month, is it? I wasn't having a go at you, but the fact is that, if you've only come to bike racing in the woeful modern "Moto GP" era of the last few years then you haven't seen any decent racing, because (with very few exceptions) there hasn't been any. Why do you think Dorna and Ezpelata have been running round like headless chickens for the last few years, desperatley trying any daft idea that comes into their heads in a vain hope of filling the dwindling grids, empty grandstands and reversing the ever plummeting tv viewing figures?
The Japanese factories pushed for the return of four strokes, but hadn't anticipated the downturn in the global economy (who had?) and are now rueing the enormous cost of the modern 4 stroke bikes - both Suzuki and Kawaski cried "enough" and pulled out (although there is talk of Suzuki returning next year), and god only knows how Yamaha continue to afford it, when they're one step away from bankruptcy and haemorrhaging so much money (a 72% drop in net income for 2012, and truly massive losses for the last few years) that they haven't had any new models in their showrooms for about 4 years, with nobody wanting to buy their current stagnant lineup. Anyone who's more than a weekend armchair viewer knows that the sport, and the bike industry as a whole, is in crisis. Of the Japanese, Yamaha have it worse, partly because it's their core business, and partly because they've been hit harder due to not outsourcing production to cheaper countries, like other manufacturers have - Honda is a car manufacturer who makes a few bikes too and Kawasaki could stop making bikes tomorrow and not notice it in their end of year accounts, since it's such a small part of the corporate giant that is KHI. The Japanese big four aren't helping themselves by burying their heads in the sand and refusing to acknowledge that the market has changed comletely in the last ten years - Triumph, Ducati and BMW (who have responded to those changes) are doing a whole lot better.
At least the godawful one-line 800s have been consigned to the history books, and good riddance to them. Banning all the electronics would help hugely (both Rossi and Stoner were firmly in favour of that, unsurprisingly the less talented riders are far less keen on the idea). You never see any decent massive highsides anymore, lol.0 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HXqZh5oTK0
Proper racing, on proper race bikes, at a proper race track (sadly lost to the GP calendar since Daijiro Kato's fatal crash) from proper hard bast*rd racers. These guys raced when they couldn't even walk from the injuries they were constantly carrying from the vicious knife edge V4 2 strokes, and only really Lawson got to walk away into retirement without a body battered and broken from years of abuse (Rainey didn't get to walk away at all after that gravel trap at Misano in '93, but says he wouldn't change a thing if he could turn the clock back), yet that whining tit Stoner retires from a title fight because of a wheat allergy ffs... Nostalgia ain't what it used to be, but those truly were the glory days of world championship motorcycle racing.0 -
Or how about one of the all time greats (and hardmen) of the sport, dropping Colin Edwards and Rossi's jaws on the most vicious, evil race bike Yamaha ever built (a bike with no brakes), when he's old enough to qualify for a free buspass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8hJWKIVNs0 -
I still maintain that it is just a rose tinted view, with one exception, the WRC, which used to be a 24-hour a day 7 day event, now its a handful of stages over three days. It's changed completely. More epic competition before, higher speed and technicality now. Neither is "better", but it's entirely understandable why someone would prefer one over the other.bennett_346 wrote:Ok, except that moaning isn't humorous...
I sort of agree with what you meant but i truly believe than in general, enjoyment of most sports is dire compared to what it used to be. Even outside of motorsports you have things like winter sports which, for whatever reason, used to be far more popular than it is now, and a lot more enjoyable to watch.
I can never quite pinpoint why though, i just know that even my grandparents who've seen at least 50 years worth of tv coverage of most sports will tell you that it's been through general highs and lows, and right now seems to be one of those lows. I'm sure they'd say there's been more than one period in the past where certain sports have been bad for a few consecutive years so it's not just rose tinted glasses.
Otherwise, with regards anything from music, to cars, to film, to sports, or anything else, I really do believe it's a case of putting decades of cherry-picked goodness, against "all" modern goings on - and ultimately that's an unfair comparison.0 -
Yeah, you're right, that proves it.Kowalski675 wrote:Or how about one of the all time greats (and hardmen) of the sport, dropping Colin Edwards and Rossi's jaws on the most vicious, evil race bike Yamaha ever built (a bike with no brakes), when he's old enough to qualify for a free buspass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8hJWKIVNs
Well, it proves you're a melancholic old timer with fond memories, and nothing much else.
What exactly are you trying to say here, that you prefer speedway, or that you wish for MotoGP to become speedway?
Cause, if speedway's your thing, it still happens. My brother did a bit.0 -
Whatever. If you don't know that isn't speedway, who the legendary rider is, or what he did to define modern grand prix motorcycle racing (it didn't always have that awful "Moto GP" name) then you really aren't remotely qualified to have any valid opinion on bike racing, lol...0
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Erm, i'm fairly sure that is speedway.0
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That, was speedway. Dirt track, oval, using throttle instead of brakes.
If YOU can't provide a valid argument about why that means modern MotoGP is not exciting, then you are not even remotely qualified to have an opinion. Sorry.0 -
bennett_346 wrote:Erm, i'm fairly sure that is speedway.
No it's not. It's flat track. Different continent, much longer tracks, much longer races, bigger grids, different surface and completely different bikes.
This is a speedway bike:
Luckily for King Kenny, he didn't have to continue risking his neck riding that evil 150 mph TZ750 creation, since the racing authorities promptly banned it anyway.0 -
YeehaaMcgee wrote:That, was speedway. Dirt track, oval, using throttle instead of brakes.
If YOU can't provide a valid argument about why that means modern MotoGP is not exciting, then you are not even remotely qualified to have an opinion. Sorry.
Whatever. You may know about mountain bikes, but you clearly know nowt about bike racing, lol.0 -
Right, so you cannot provide any sensible conclusion about why that makes MotoGP boring.
We're done here.0 -
If you really need me to explain why the tedious processions (like F1, but without even the pitstops to break up the utter monotony) of Moto GP have been so boring over the last few years then you've never seen anything resembling real racing.
If you really do need it explaining then there's been any number of well written and informitive articles on the subject over the last few years by the likes of Michael Scott, Matt Oxley etc...0 -
So, what you're saying is, you don't know, you're just repeating someone else's opinions.
Calling MotoGP a procession can be shown to be a fallacy by, well, watching any race.
Unless... Are you one of those people who only watch to see crashes?
oh, and the video, yeah, that's speedway. Oval, dirt, no brakes, flat corners, yep, all speedway.0 -
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YeehaaMcgee wrote:Unless... Are you one of those people who only watch to see crashes?
No. I watch to see racing, which there has been precious little of in Moto GP for years. A procession of bikes lapping on their own with no overtaking isn't racing. At least in the days before traction control and all the electronic shite watching one fast rider could be enjoyable, since the bikes were sideways and smoking tyres, but you don't even get that from the electronics festooned diesels.oh, and the video, yeah, that's speedway. Oval, dirt, no brakes, flat corners, yep, all speedway.
No, it's not speedway. It's flat track. Different continent, different sport, completely different machinery. That's like saying F1 is Indycar, or vice versa.0 -
YeehaaMcgee wrote:Hey, Eurosport has speedway on at 3. Watch it, you might learn something.
I think it's you that needs an education, since (when it comes to bikes) you're clearly clueless. I don't need Eurosport - I know what speedway is, I've seen plenty of it live.0 -
Flat track = yank speedway. Simples.
When was the last time you actually watched MotoGP? I could count on the fingers of one hand, the amount of races that have become a procession in the last three years. Seriously, you're looking through rose tinted glasses. Get some contacts instead, and ditch the negativity. Change is inevitable.0 -
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Mugello quali was brilliant. Pedrosa...what a lap! last minute!0
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"John McGuinness lapped at 105.65mph on
the Mugen Shinden machine in the TT
Zero practice lap to unofficially set a new
lap record for the class.
McGuinness headed the times from last
year’s winner Michael Rutter (Motoczysc),
who managed a speed of 104.63mph"
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YeehaaMcgee wrote:Flat track = yank speedway. Simples.
When was the last time you actually watched MotoGP? I could count on the fingers of one hand, the amount of races that have become a procession in the last three years. Seriously, you're looking through rose tinted glasses. Get some contacts instead, and ditch the negativity. Change is inevitable.
You must've been watching different races to me then - with very, very few exceptions they've been utterly tedious processions for years now. Change may be inevitable, but when it's for the worse (which the diesels -especially the godawful single line 800s - and all the electronic shite indisputably have been) that doesn't make it any less shite. If you've only watched GPs in the last few years though you wouldn't know anything better. Thank fook for Marquez.
Flat track and Speedway are as different as F1 and Indycar - totally different sports, with totally different machinery and tracks.0 -
Go on then, explain the difference.0
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FocusZing wrote:"John McGuinness lapped at 105.65mph
That would've won a TT in 1966, lol...0 -
bennett_346 wrote:Go on then, explain the difference.
Already have - totally different tracks (far longer in flat track), different surface, totally different bikes (the only thing they have in common is the number of wheels and lack of brakes), much higher speeds in flat track, much bigger grids in flat track, much longer races in flat track - there's far more differences than similarities, they're two completely different sports. If you're going to insist that they're the same then you'd also have to say that F1 and Indycar are the same, WRC and rallycross are the same, motocross and enduro are the same, offshore powerboat racing and unlimited hydroplane racing are the same etc etc etc...0
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