Oh FFS

PBo
PBo Posts: 2,493
edited May 2013 in Commuting chat
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-ouch-22706881

Will nobody leave us alone! Check the comments too!!!
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Comments

  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    Other road users will leave cyclists alone when cyclists stop going through red lights.

    Yes, the other road users do it too but not to the same extent as I have seen in the last 24 hours in London.
    Give them a stick and they will beat you with it.
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • menthel
    menthel Posts: 2,484
    Agreed, too many idiots that can't wait for the lights or just have to get around that single car jam by going on the pavement. They give most of us a bad name.
    RIP commute...
    Sometimes seen bimbling around on a purple Fratello Disc or black and red Aprire Vincenza.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Its almost subliminal the way they managed to thread in the anti cycling rhetoric in what I thought was thread about a device that helps disabled people...
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Widgey
    Widgey Posts: 157
    Its not only cyclists that jump lights, cars do too!

    Also why use the term 'attractive' bird names, they mean something. Not just for show.
    Dry Bike
    Wet Bike
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    daviesee wrote:
    Other road users will leave cyclists alone when cyclists stop going through red lights.

    Yes, the other road users do it too but not to the same extent as I have seen in the last 24 hours in London.
    Give them a stick and they will beat you with it.

    But as we've discussed before (and at the risk of turning this into yet another RLJ thread), why is a disproportionate amount of angst directed at cyclists jumping reds? Cyclists, lets face it, make up a minority of road going traffic and a minority of this minority actually jump reds yet everyone from peds to motorists get themselves all riled up about it. Yet every day we see motorists speed, park illegally and dangerously, drive whilst on the phone, drive cars with illegally darkened side windows etc etc and as soon as the authorities try to take a stand against this, motorists simply start bleating and whingeing that they pay "road tax".

    Pedestrians on their part never seem to complain that most motorists "appear" to break the law and despite the fact that about 4000 people die or are injured every year by motorists, there is a huge focus on cyclists. As far as I'm concerned this is symptomatic of motorists' claim and pedestrians' acceptance that driving is a right not a privilege and all other road users come second to motorists and needs to change...
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    Simple.
    When waiting at lights in queuing traffic in many circumstances a car could in theory go through red safely but they don't for fear of prosecution.
    They see cyclists going through the same red without prosecution and are jealous. Simple as that.
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • No Sweat
    No Sweat Posts: 103
    Headhuunter's hit most of the nails firmly on their heads.

    I also think car-drivers AND pedestrians are jealous. Even a clapped-out hack-bike is way cooller than any car when the traffic is nose-to-tail. Notwithstanding 'taxation', compared to cars, bikes are also much cheaper to run, faster in traffic, and they don't make you fat.

    The fly in the ointment is that minority of numbskulls who cycle on urban pavements and ignore traffic rules, and provide too easy a target for all the frustrations of the other road users.
  • SteppenHerring
    SteppenHerring Posts: 720
    I daren't follow the link.

    The ire directed at cyclists is odd. For a start, lumping all cyclists together is pretty illogical. I have nothing in common with millitant CM types or clueless RLJing, BSO riding headphone wearers except a vaguely related means of transport.

    The same people who become furious when having to wait a few seconds for a bicycle then go on to sit calmly in a queue of cars for 10 minutes. It doesn't make sense.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    daviesee wrote:
    Simple.
    When waiting at lights in queuing traffic in many circumstances a car could in theory go through red safely but they don't for fear of prosecution.
    They see cyclists going through the same red without prosecution and are jealous. Simple as that.

    It's far safer for a cyclist to jump a red than a motorist, illegal or no. A cyclist sits higher up and has a better view or traffic, as long as s/he is not wearing headphones, can also hear far more than a driver who is sealed in a little glass and metal bubble, most likely with the stereo on. A cyclist doesn't have to look past the frame of the car which obstructs clear views of the road, a bicyle is about 1-1.5m long, most cars are far longer with a great big sticky out bonnet in front which would have to protrude into the junction before the driver got a clear view.

    Personally I think that RLJing is very little different to a pedestrian crossing the road on the red man, there's not much difference between walking up to the edge of the pavement, looking left and right and crossing than approaching a junction, looking left and right on a bike and then crossing. Sitting sealed off in the bulk of a car or van etc, this is far more difficult.....

    As we've discussed before, in many countries it's accepted that cycles move on and off the pavement as and when and pass through red lights (I have witnessed this in Antwerp and Paris), whereas in others, it is completely unacceptable for pedestrians to cross anywhere except an official crossing when the green man is showing.... For some reason the UK has, in my view, a completely out of proportion reaction to RLJing... But that's just my view...
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • vermin
    vermin Posts: 1,739
    Headhuunter wrote:
    daviesee wrote:
    Other road users will leave cyclists alone when cyclists stop going through red lights.

    Yes, the other road users do it too but not to the same extent as I have seen in the last 24 hours in London.
    Give them a stick and they will beat you with it.

    But as we've discussed before (and at the risk of turning this into yet another RLJ thread), why is a disproportionate amount of angst directed at cyclists jumping reds? Cyclists, lets face it, make up a minority of road going traffic and a minority of this minority actually jump reds yet everyone from peds to motorists get themselves all riled up about it. Yet every day we see motorists speed, park illegally and dangerously, drive whilst on the phone, drive cars with illegally darkened side windows etc etc and as soon as the authorities try to take a stand against this, motorists simply start bleating and whingeing that they pay "road tax".

    Pedestrians on their part never seem to complain that most motorists "appear" to break the law and despite the fact that about 4000 people die or are injured every year by motorists, there is a huge focus on cyclists. As far as I'm concerned this is symptomatic of motorists' claim and pedestrians' acceptance that driving is a right not a privilege and all other road users come second to motorists and needs to change...

    Is it not simply because most pedestrians also drive and most drivers also walk, but neither most pedestrians nor most drivers also cycle?
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    vermin wrote:
    Is it not simply because most pedestrians also drive and most drivers also walk, but neither most pedestrians nor most drivers also cycle?
    I think its all of the above, but mostly this...
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  • wandsworth
    wandsworth Posts: 354
    This is not ire directed at cyclists, or anti-cyclist rhetoric: it's a comment from a blind pedestrian about his concerns. It will stop when cyclists stop going through pedestrian crossings on red and getting all cyclists a bad name. Perhaps those who still do this could consider that some of the pedestrians they're threading/blasting their way through may be blind, deaf or otherwise disabled.
    Shut up, knees!

    Various Boardmans, a Focus, a Cannondale and an ancient Trek.
  • owenlars
    owenlars Posts: 719
    wandsworth wrote:
    This is not ire directed at cyclists, or anti-cyclist rhetoric: it's a comment from a blind pedestrian about his concerns. It will stop when cyclists stop going through pedestrian crossings on red and getting all cyclists a bad name. Perhaps those who still do this could consider that some of the pedestrians they're threading/blasting their way through may be blind, deaf or otherwise disabled.


    This is spot on, it is all about respect for those around you. Pretty simple really, treat others as you would wish to be treated.
  • zx6man
    zx6man Posts: 1,092
    When you get to the red light, jump off, carry your bike over the stop line, and carry on....
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    wandsworth wrote:
    This is not ire directed at cyclists, or anti-cyclist rhetoric: it's a comment from a blind pedestrian about his concerns. It will stop when cyclists stop going through pedestrian crossings on red and getting all cyclists a bad name. Perhaps those who still do this could consider that some of the pedestrians they're threading/blasting their way through may be blind, deaf or otherwise disabled.

    Anyone who rides through a red light and weaves through pedestrians at a crossing is a tw*t. I very very very rarely see this happening, though. Most of the RLJ I see is people going through red lights that are stopping traffic from going across an empty road. Its totally innocuous, really, but it irritates the t*ts off car drivers.
    FCN 4 PX SL Pro SRAM Red
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  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    notsoblue wrote:
    wandsworth wrote:
    This is not ire directed at cyclists, or anti-cyclist rhetoric: it's a comment from a blind pedestrian about his concerns. It will stop when cyclists stop going through pedestrian crossings on red and getting all cyclists a bad name. Perhaps those who still do this could consider that some of the pedestrians they're threading/blasting their way through may be blind, deaf or otherwise disabled.

    Anyone who rides through a red light and weaves through pedestrians at a crossing is a tw*t. I very very very rarely see this happening, though. Most of the RLJ I see is people going through red lights that are stopping traffic from going across an empty road. Its totally innocuous, really, but it irritates the t*ts off car drivers.
    However is as innocuous as a pedestrian crossing the road when the green man isn't showing but there are no cars around, yet this is viewed as completely harmless and normal...
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • chilling
    chilling Posts: 267
    I didn't know that the red/green man has been legislated for.

    RLJing is just annoying, more so the ones who have to push their way through the shoal at the lights to perform said jump.

    Maybe we should as fine upstanding RL Waiters, start barking at the Jumpers as they pass by like the dogs they are. It would be funny if nothing else. A whole crowd of cyclist barking at the red light jumpers.


    I did have a funny conversation with a very proper lady on her bike who jumped 3 sets of lights, after the third one I slowed next to her once I'd caught her and asked if she'd mind me stealing her purse. She was very affronted and told me she would be ringing the police and reporting me.

    I told her that I'd just witnessed her jumping the lights and so to my mind her respect for the law was quite laxed and that I was just picking which laws I chose to respect, like she was. She wasn't very impressed but did wait at the next red light.
  • No Sweat
    No Sweat Posts: 103
    Although pedestrians 'RLJing' is, I believe, completely legal.........

    We have road traffic rules so that everyone knows how other road users are likely to behave. It changes our risk assessment at junctions...it is more likely that the road will be clear when the lights are green in our favour, so we can concentrate more of our attention on other more problematic risks (children, less able people etc.). Deliberately flouting the rules by RLJing because, in your opinion, the rules don't apply to you, is merely making a b...dy nuisance of yourself and you become a menace to both other road users and to yourself. Scare a driver once, and you make them an enemy of all cyclists.

    Stick to the rules, and we all rub along nicely together.

    If you don't like the rules, campaign to get them changed. Until then, do the right thing, even if it holds you up for a couple of minutes a day.
  • vermin
    vermin Posts: 1,739
    Headhuunter wrote:
    However is as innocuous as a pedestrian crossing the road when the green man isn't showing but there are no cars around, yet this is viewed as completely harmless and normal...

    The two may be similar, but only one is a criminal offence. Some people do tend to object to blatent criminal behaviour in broad daylight.
  • zx6man
    zx6man Posts: 1,092
    zx6man wrote:
    When you get to the red light, jump off, carry your bike over the stop line, and carry on....

    I don't actually do this of course.... would look worse than Jumping the light!
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,885
    I pass this set of lights every evening. I am in the far left hand lane going straight on. The junction on the right is an entrance to a large Sainsbury's. Just after the lights the road narrows from 2 lanes to 1. It would probably be safer for me to jump the light however I don't because I know it just winds people up.
    So instead of jumping the lights I sit there and end up holding the cars up as the road narrows and I am in primary as there is not enough room for them to pass.
    So, I can annoy the drivers by jumping the light or I can annoy the drivers by not jumping the light. No wonder they want us all to die. Maybe I should jump the light so at least they can't catch me to kill me to death.
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  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    zx6man wrote:
    zx6man wrote:
    When you get to the red light, jump off, carry your bike over the stop line, and carry on....

    I don't actually do this of course.... would look worse than Jumping the light!
    Good cyclocross training :-)
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    Headhuunter wrote:
    daviesee wrote:
    Simple.
    When waiting at lights in queuing traffic in many circumstances a car could in theory go through red safely but they don't for fear of prosecution.
    They see cyclists going through the same red without prosecution and are jealous. Simple as that.

    It's far safer for a cyclist to jump a red than a motorist, illegal or no. A cyclist sits higher up and has a better view or traffic, as long as s/he is not wearing headphones, can also hear far more than a driver who is sealed in a little glass and metal bubble, most likely with the stereo on. A cyclist doesn't have to look past the frame of the car which obstructs clear views of the road, a bicyle is about 1-1.5m long, most cars are far longer with a great big sticky out bonnet in front which would have to protrude into the junction before the driver got a clear view.

    Personally I think that RLJing is very little different to a pedestrian crossing the road on the red man, there's not much difference between walking up to the edge of the pavement, looking left and right and crossing than approaching a junction, looking left and right on a bike and then crossing. Sitting sealed off in the bulk of a car or van etc, this is far more difficult.....

    As we've discussed before, in many countries it's accepted that cycles move on and off the pavement as and when and pass through red lights (I have witnessed this in Antwerp and Paris), whereas in others, it is completely unacceptable for pedestrians to cross anywhere except an official crossing when the green man is showing.... For some reason the UK has, in my view, a completely out of proportion reaction to RLJing... But that's just my view...
    Justify it all you want. Be my guest. I am not arguing.
    But it will still be illegal, and more to the point of this thread - wind drivers up.
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    daviesee wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    daviesee wrote:
    Simple.
    When waiting at lights in queuing traffic in many circumstances a car could in theory go through red safely but they don't for fear of prosecution.
    They see cyclists going through the same red without prosecution and are jealous. Simple as that.

    It's far safer for a cyclist to jump a red than a motorist, illegal or no. A cyclist sits higher up and has a better view or traffic, as long as s/he is not wearing headphones, can also hear far more than a driver who is sealed in a little glass and metal bubble, most likely with the stereo on. A cyclist doesn't have to look past the frame of the car which obstructs clear views of the road, a bicyle is about 1-1.5m long, most cars are far longer with a great big sticky out bonnet in front which would have to protrude into the junction before the driver got a clear view.

    Personally I think that RLJing is very little different to a pedestrian crossing the road on the red man, there's not much difference between walking up to the edge of the pavement, looking left and right and crossing than approaching a junction, looking left and right on a bike and then crossing. Sitting sealed off in the bulk of a car or van etc, this is far more difficult.....

    As we've discussed before, in many countries it's accepted that cycles move on and off the pavement as and when and pass through red lights (I have witnessed this in Antwerp and Paris), whereas in others, it is completely unacceptable for pedestrians to cross anywhere except an official crossing when the green man is showing.... For some reason the UK has, in my view, a completely out of proportion reaction to RLJing... But that's just my view...
    Justify it all you want. Be my guest. I am not arguing.
    But it will still be illegal, and more to the point of this thread - wind drivers up.
    OK, point taken but personally I couldn't care less about drivers. When drivers (as a group) beat each other up about speeding, talking on the phone etc will be the day cyclists (as a group) feel guilty about RLJing... I know 2 wrongs don't make a right but I don't see why some irate driver who feels he owns the road should influence what cyclists who have in fact got an equal right to the road do
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  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    Headhuunter wrote:
    OK, point taken but personally I couldn't care less about drivers. When drivers (as a group) beat each other up about speeding, talking on the phone etc will be the day cyclists (as a group) feel guilty about RLJing... I know 2 wrongs don't make a right but I don't see why some irate driver who feels he owns the road should influence what cyclists who have in fact got an equal right to the road do
    I would rather not wind up drivers as road rage could end up with me being injured.
    But that is only my opinion. :wink:
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • vermin
    vermin Posts: 1,739
    Headhuunter wrote:
    in many countries it's LEGAL that cycles move on and off the pavement as and when and pass through red lights (I have witnessed this in Antwerp and Paris), whereas in others, it is completely ILLEGAL for pedestrians to cross anywhere except an official crossing when the green man is showing.... For some reason (THE LAW) the UK has, in my view, a completely out of proportion reaction to RLJing... But that's just my view...

    FTFY
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    Additional thought.

    In London (for example) if you RLJ, there is little chance of being caught by an irate driver.
    In areas where the driver is likely to catch you there is less RLJ'ing.

    Action, consequence, reaction?
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • liz545
    liz545 Posts: 8
    wandsworth wrote:
    It will stop when cyclists stop going through pedestrian crossings on red and getting all cyclists a bad name.

    I find the concept of 'giving all cyclists a bad name' a confusing one. How can a law-abiding cyclist be responsible for the actions of a law-breaking one? Are drunk drivers giving all drivers a bad name? Surely the fact that many people still drive drunk, use their mobile phone when driving, and break speed limits demonstrates that some road users will continue to behave badly under any circumstances?

    Some people are inconsiderate road users - that's not going to change. They're not going to stop hating us if 'we' all behave well, because we're individuals with individual, rather than collective, responsibility. I couldn't care less if some drivers continue to hate cyclists, as long as the roads are designed to make it harder for them to use their car as a weapon, and the police/courts enforce the law properly.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    vermin wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    in many countries it's LEGAL that cycles move on and off the pavement as and when and pass through red lights (I have witnessed this in Antwerp and Paris), whereas in others, it is completely ILLEGAL for pedestrians to cross anywhere except an official crossing when the green man is showing.... For some reason (THE LAW) the UK has, in my view, a completely out of proportion reaction to RLJing... But that's just my view...

    FTFY

    Is it legal in Paris and Antwerp for cycles to run on and off the pavement and through red lights? Genuine question...
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  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,885
    liz545 wrote:
    wandsworth wrote:
    It will stop when cyclists stop going through pedestrian crossings on red and getting all cyclists a bad name.

    I find the concept of 'giving all cyclists a bad name' a confusing one. How can a law-abiding cyclist be responsible for the actions of a law-breaking one? Are drunk drivers giving all drivers a bad name? Surely the fact that many people still drive drunk, use their mobile phone when driving, and break speed limits demonstrates that some road users will continue to behave badly under any circumstances?

    Some people are inconsiderate road users - that's not going to change. They're not going to stop hating us if 'we' all behave well, because we're individuals with individual, rather than collective, responsibility. I couldn't care less if some drivers continue to hate cyclists, as long as the roads are designed to make it harder for them to use their car as a weapon, and the police/courts enforce the law properly.
    It's not logical.
    My former boss, a little prick if ever there was one, used to say he had never seen a cyclist stop at a red light with the exception of another colleague, his office favourite. I pointed out that this was complete and utter ballcocks, he insisted he was right and continued to do so until I reminded him that he pulled up next to me when I was stopped at a red light on my bicycle the previous evening.
    Unfortunately there are a huge number of ignorant bigoted phucktards around and they will use any argument to make their point. They drive and use their phone, they drink and drive yet they haven't killed anyone so it must be ok, they have just learnt not to openly admit to it, same as they can't openly admit to being racist/sexist/whateverist as it's not pc, cyclist bashing is considered socially acceptable. Don't expect logical arguments from these idiots.
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