First club run....reality check!

Grill

Calculator is clownshoes. Power meter is the only real way to determine power.

thescouselander

Grill wrote:

Calculator is clownshoes. Power meter is the only real way to determine power.

Granted it's only indicative but in relative terms the basic equations will give the proportion of extra power needed for a speed increase from any given starting speed to a good degree of accuracy.

Grill

I asked about those specific variables to see if it would relate to rides I've done this week- It's not even close. It said I would require an additional 64W as opposed to the 20W it actually cost me. Riding to a formula is not something I would encourage, especially for a beginner. It's all achievable, you just have to ride.

thescouselander

Grill wrote:

I asked about those specific variables to see if it would relate to rides I've done this week- It's not even close. It said I would require an additional 64W as opposed to the 20W it actually cost me. Riding to a formula is not something I would encourage, especially for a beginner. It's all achievable, you just have to ride.

Yes, as I said the absolute values will be indicative only but the relative values should be accurate. Then again can you be sure the variables you entered are correct?

Basically, for solo riding, you'd be on pretty safe ground assuming your power requirement will be a function of your speed cubed (as a rule of thumb).

Grill

thescouselander wrote:

Grill wrote:

I asked about those specific variables to see if it would relate to rides I've done this week- It's not even close. It said I would require an additional 64W as opposed to the 20W it actually cost me. Riding to a formula is not something I would encourage, especially for a beginner. It's all achievable, you just have to ride.

Yes, as I said the absolute values will be indicative only but the relative values should be accurate. Then again can you be sure the variables you entered are correct?

Basically, for solo riding, you'd be on pretty safe ground assuming your power requirement will be a function of your speed cubed (as a rule of thumb).

Yup.

slowbike

Grill wrote:

The "beginner" label is simply a state of mind and I'm quite confident that I can tow someone who averages 16mph to 18mph and even more in a group (done it before). Saying it can't be done is silly as it's more a question of just going out and doing it.

It's not just a state of mind - there is a level of stamina required to sustain the higher speed despite being in a group - especially if there are any gradients involved - been there, done that, blown up and the group slowed for me.

You're right in that it's just a case of going out and doing it - as that way you can get some good training too.

paul2718

Grill wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something, but are you saying that if it normally takes 200w to ride at 18mph then it would take 500w (2.5 times) to do the same into a 10mph headwind? Really?

In the absence of rolling resistance. The drag rises by about that factor.

But if at 18mph you are pushing 100W through the air and 50W into the tyres/chain etc then a 10mph headwind would raise the 100W to 240W, the 50W remains constant, so you'd need to make 290W to maintain the speed.

The faster you are going the less significant the rolling resistance part of the load, 18mph is pretty slow in this context.

So given an 11mph tailwind how much more power would it take to increase speed from 21.2mph to 23.8mph? And would a constant 1% gradient make a difference as I'd imagine more power would be required to hold speed uhill rather than downhill...

Use the calculator linked upthread. If the numbers don't reconcile with your power meter then there is likely to be something wrong with the constants and assumptions you have made on the input. The outputs are looking pretty plausible to me.

Paul

jgsi

This has become such a 'slow day in the office' for some on here
I use clown shoes Trainer Road virtual power - works effectively for me in sometimes making me almost chuck up.
But on the road...?? in a race ..? doing a timetrial.? what feckin' constants?

Mettan

Churchill123 wrote:

some of you lads on here are quoting 18-20mph averages which currently i can only dream of

It depends on what exactly they're referring to - for solo riding, an 18-20mph avg is good (over any reasonable distance) - in a group situation however (assuming your fit and have been riding for a few years) an 18-20 mph avg is quite manageable for many riders. Regards progress/potential etc, I came 17th out of 33 last night with a short 26 minute Spoco 10 (~ 485 ft) - that's a fraction under a 23 mph avg for a hilly TT (bad weather aswell..) - that might not be the sort of performance a beginner would produce, but after a few years of riding/training/racing it's certainly something that many new riders can build towards.

dennisn

Lycraboy_Andy wrote:

Took part in my first club run on Sunday (not counting the one in February!) and it's opened my eyes to the amount of work I've got to do. It wasn't even the fast group, during the pre-ride briefing the leader advised we were going to ride about 18 to 20mph (I noticed a couple of times we were doing 23mph on the easier sections). To cut a long story short I got dropped after about 40 minutes :oops: They did of course stop and wait for me, but the sight of the rest of the bunch stood by the verge as I rolled up to the junction made me wish they hadn't!

I think you'll find it is standard practice in club runs to break it into a faster and slower group. The leader of the slower group will always tell everyone that they will be riding at a "decent" pace(not to fast). This rarely happens. I think it has something to do with guys egos. No one wants to be spit out the back and a few in the group definately want to be the first to the turn around or convienence store. The general rule is "If more than one person is riding, it's a race".

carl_p

Churchill123 wrote:

Lets not beat around the bush, the more miles i put in on the bike, the quicker i'll get! - It's that simple isn't it...

Yes and no. A sure way of getting quicker is to ride with faster riders. Try the club run, you might get dropped a few times but ultimately you will get fitter and your averages will increase. Plus it's actually quite fun

teisetrotter

I'm with Dulwich Paragon. The longer morning Saturday ride is about 17 - 19mph for 100km with about 1,500m of climbing. That is a very good workout for me and I have been riding since September.

Wed chaingang is a step up from that, but at less distance.

awavey

Carl_P wrote:

Churchill123 wrote:

Lets not beat around the bush, the more miles i put in on the bike, the quicker i'll get! - It's that simple isn't it...

Yes and no. A sure way of getting quicker is to ride with faster riders. Try the club run, you might get dropped a few times but ultimately you will get fitter and your averages will increase. Plus it's actually quite fun

its fun to get dropped ? :shock: the more miles I put on the bike, the further I can cycle, literally thats all that happens, my speed is fixed at around a 12-15mph average depending on route/headwind etc which, I convince myself if I had nice lighter weight proper roadie bike I could maybe improve upon it, but I doubt it, as people have said it takes a significant increase in power output to improve speed.

so when someone suggests why not do a club run thats going to hit 18-20mph average, even in a group, Ive no confidence I could keep up, or maintain it over the distances they want to go, (40 miles to me is not a beginners route), and for the "newbie/beginner" the absolute last thing you want to be is the tail end charlie/charlotte holding everyone else up all the time, or to completely blow a gasket and have to bail out and call for a pickup.

the impression you get of them is they are competitive, more races to some people than just runs to a coffee shop, and that to me takes all the fun out of it

morstar

Awavey, you are correct that just riding more miles won't necessarily make you quicker. I have started running semi seriously in the last 12 months and everything you read states that lots of slow miles will just make you a slow runner. No reason cycling should be any different. You need to do some specific speed work like intervals.
As for the club run. Some clubs will do a genuine introductory ride but they are probably very rare. I know the Chorley club does as I know the guys involved and their own background.

morstar

I think the problem with clubs in any sport is that they don't actually understand a beginners needs. They genuinely believetthey are welcoming to beginners and they do want new members. What they don't necessarily manage to do is to create the right environment for less confident riders. It is more about what isn't said and done rather than what is.
I played ice hockey for a few years in a club that was genuinely geared up to novice players. A few years ago there was a bit of a power struggle and the club has been far more successful in a playing sense ever since. However, in no way is it a beginners club anymore. The web site still states quite clearly it is. The structure and behaviours say otherwise. They are good people and they would be friendly to a beginner but they have no understanding of a beginners requirements. Many clubs in all sports are just the same.

slowbike

awavey wrote:

so when someone suggests why not do a club run thats going to hit 18-20mph average, even in a group, Ive no confidence I could keep up, or maintain it over the distances they want to go, (40 miles to me is not a beginners route), and for the "newbie/beginner" the absolute last thing you want to be is the tail end charlie/charlotte holding everyone else up all the time, or to completely blow a gasket and have to bail out and call for a pickup.

the impression you get of them is they are competitive, more races to some people than just runs to a coffee shop, and that to me takes all the fun out of it

If you want to group ride - find a club that does 15mph rides and just be prepared to drop off if the average is too fast.
If you don't want to group ride then don't ...

Personally (as a mainly solo rider) I'd be quite happy with a 15mph group ride - I could probably do the 18-20mph ones too now (although that'd be pushing me much harder)

The only way you're going to find out if they're competitive is to turn up and ride. Explain that you're a beginner and listen to them (some will preach, but there should be at least one that is sympathetic!) - when you've had enough mentally, make your excuses and depart - if it's just the physical then make sure you look exhausted - they should slow up, if they don't then they're not the group for you - so just make your excuses and leave.

If you're riding for enjoyment then you need to enjoy it - if it is for fitness then you need to push yourself and a group could be a way to achieve that.

Gizmo_

1. If you ride long distances slowly you'll be able to ride longer distances. Slowly.
2. If you ride up steep hills, you'll be able to ride up steeper hills.
3. If you ride as hard as you can for as long as you can - but focusing on how hard, not how long - you'll be able to ride harder.

1 is endurance: ability to convert energy reserves into (low) power for long periods. Aerobic.
2 is peak power: muscle strength (anaerobic).
3 is also about power, but also about lactate threshold... pushing back the point where your legs age full of lactic acid and don't work any more. The more you push, the more you'll be able to push as a 'normal' effort rather than a specific one.

cyberknight

I can only echo what others have posted regarding how much easier it is to ride in the pack as you save a lot of energy and get sucked along .
When i do get chance for a club run i have for a few years been riding with the medium pace group and pulling at the front a lot.The other week i chanced my arm with the fast group and basically got towed around much of the loop till i got dropped near the end due to a junction split.
the upshot is i was less tired on the fast run but we went about 3 mph average faster than big pulls on the medium ride.