Specialized Mindset replacement

nferrar

I have a 2008 Roubaix Elite whose headset is on it's way out, I ordered a Cane Creek series 40 IS headset to replace it (came up as compatible on the CC checker) but having started to take the old headset out it doesn't seem as simple as that. Has anyone changed one and remember what they did?
The issue seems to be, as best I can understand it from searching for posts, is Specialized have made a normal integrated headtube but then for some reason put custom cups in it that take caged bearings. However reading posts there seems to be conflicting info on how you replace it. I was all set to follow one post I found where the guy removes the cups (whacks them out with a hammer) and then you just treat it as a normal integrated headtube and fit the CC series 40 headset.
However I've then read other posts saying either they couldn't get the cups out or that you need a special tool (Specialized dealer only) or that removing the cups ruins the frame (or at least that you'd need to replace them as it's not an integrated headtube after all). Looking at Specialized's official info the only compatible replacement headset is a Mindset but as I've already bought the CC series 40 one and I'd prefer to use cartridge bearings I'd like to ignore that and fit what I have.
So basically just looking for first hand experience from someone that's done it that knocking out the cups is the way to go (and that doing so just leaves you with a normal integrated headtube).

estampida

well the bearings could be custom

but the fitting to the frame and fork are like any other bike

the cost to make 1 model or range of bikes with some non standard oem part in it is a pain to do in mass production

you just need a headset drift (there are about a tenner on ebay) you can cover the ends in tape if you want to avoid any damage to the head tube

and remember to lightly grease the cups and frame sections before to press the new cups in there

quick google the mindset is a 1 1/8" headset with options for road and mtb... nowt fancy or strange

nferrar

Yeah I have a drift already and am fine with the process for a standard headset but like I said I don't think the Mindset is standard, threads like these seem to support that: http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index ... 67183.html

My guess is the headtube is machined as a normal integrated IS one but then for some reason rather than just fit an integrated IS headset directly into the frame they've fitted custom cups into the frame that then require a non-standard caged bearing, sort of making it an internal design however with the ability to convert it back to integrated by removing the cups (and not replacing them). I know I can probably just track down replacement bearings but I can see wear in the cups/races so want to replace the whole thing but a normal internal headset cup won't fit due to the bevelling which makes it a integrated headtube so if I want cups I need to use a Mindset headset but I'm 99% sure I can fit the integrated headset and not use the cups, I just wanted to be 100% sure before getting the hammer & drift out

wishitwasallflat

I just got the Mindset headset taken out of my 2011 Spesh Sectuer - as far as I know its the same as yours except yours is Campy so it's 45*45 and mine is 36*45. Check here yourself -

http://service.specialized.com/collater ... -Guide.pdf

As you say the frame is built to take standard sealed cartridge bearings but like yours (and many other Spesh bikes) they press fit the black Mindset races into the headtube instead into which fit the Mindset balls in cages fit into - the Mindset parts look pretty much exactly like the set in the first here;

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j& ... 4643929475

I went to Harrogate (my local) Spesh Concept Store cause I have a great relationship with them and trust Will (the mechanic) he had no problem letting me watch and he knocked out the races with one of these:

http://www.parktool.com/product/head-cup-remover-rt-1

He just removed all the other parts of the headset - put that tool into the headtube so it sat against the races and gave it a few hefty bangs with a hammer and the races popped out. It's then dead simple he just greased the part of the headtube where the races sat and popped in a set of sealed cartridge bearings. The sealed bearings sit exactly on the same shelf (don't know the correct word but you know what I mean) on the inside of the headtube where the Mindset races sat. The only bit was he decided whether or not to use the Mindset crown race. I searched a lot around this before I got it done and some seem to say you will need an extra 3mm spacer to make it work with cartridge bearings but mine worked fine without. He re-assembled it without the crown race - my OEM FACT Fork has an angled face like an inbuilt crown race that engages fine with the lower aspect of the cartridge bearing and no extra spacers were required. The other part he re-used was the split ring (compression ring??) from the Mindeset that fitted into the upper face of the upper bearing and he just slotted it into the upper face of the upper cartridge bearing and then fitted all the other parts and it worked a treat. Smoother than ever and its great to know its dead easy to service in the future myself.

He told me any 36*45 cartridge bearing of the diameter for my headtube (1 1/8 * 1 1/8) would drop right in as a replacement but I think you need Campy 45*45 to fit your headtube. Also mine is Al so yours being Carbon may need a bit more care (and, as we all know, don't work on it in direct sunlight or damp conditions or it will explode and end the universe being carbon!)

Now .... I do hope this helps and I hope I haven't insulted you by giving too much simple detail but I reckon its better to give too much info than too little. If you have any questions reply on this thread and happy to try to answer. I reckon we should keep it all on this thread cause a fair few of us have had this issue and I couldn't find a good answer when I searched.

kiwimatt

I did my Allez a few weeks back with a 40IS Cane Creek set (sorry as previous poster your bearing size is a bit different and Roubaix Elite crown race says 'raised' not standard but hopefully some of this is applicable)

Yes you have to drift out the stoopid Specialized cups top and bottom - I did it carefully with the tap tap round and round screwdriver and rubber mallet method not being too worried about my alu Allez but ideally you'd want a proper drift of some sort for your carbon frame maybe as suggested?

New crown race was fine once the old one is off just make sure the new one is really level and it takes a bit of force to seat it right down I was surprised it took a fair bit of whacking down - bottom bearing just slots up into frame once cup is out.

The golden key to this and slightly more fiddly bit is back at the top where you will need a spacer (I think I used a 3mm or 5mm headset spacer) sitting on TOP of the bearing - before you fit the top cap of the Cane Creek. This might leave a wee fraction (not entirely ideal) gap between the top of the frame and the top cap - but if you don't do this the bearing sits slightly too low on the 'shelf' that is left in the headtube once you've whacked the cups out and you can never get the play out of the headset before it starts binding and it will drive you nuts!

This chap made a custom spacer and the pictures help
viewtopic.php?f=40004&t=12869871&p=17797181&hilit=allez+headset#p17797181

wishitwasallflat

Interesting stuff - does anyone know why mine didn't need the spacer or a separate crown race one the Mindset bearings were replaced with cartridge?

Could it be cause I re-used all the parts of the mindset bar the races, balls and cages but then it looks like its the depth of the recess for the top bearing in the headtube that means you need the spacer. Surely Secteurs aren't different in that respect? Also why did my fork have that wedged bit integral at the top - is that so that you can use cartridge bearings with no separate crown race? I thought all these Spesh FACT forks were the same on these bikes?

kiwimatt

wishitwasallflat wrote:

Interesting stuff - does anyone know why mine didn't need the spacer or a separate crown race one the Mindset bearings were replaced with cartridge?

Could it be cause I re-used all the parts of the mindset bar the races, balls and cages but then it looks like its the depth of the recess for the top bearing in the headtube that means you need the spacer. Surely Secteurs aren't different in that respect? Also why did my fork have that wedged bit integral at the top - is that so that you can use cartridge bearings with no separate crown race? I thought all these Spesh FACT forks were the same on these bikes?

Not sure but I tried mine all ways - split rings and top cap from the original set - new top cap - spacer underneath - spacer on top of different sizes - and it nearly drove me daffy until I found the pictures in the previous post and it all slotted into place. Can't see that I could have purchased any bearings that would have been fat enough to account for the shelf depth but maybe there are do you know which exact ones your guy used?

Think my fork is an older variant (carbon with alloy steerer) - which I think is a bit different to the current spec Secteur which has a carbon steerer and the alloy crown race thing on it

nferrar

Cheers, guys - both your experiences give me a bit more faith in knocking out the cups! Although I've know also read on some frames Spesh glue them in and that also there's a step in the headtube on some carbon frames which means a drift can't get purchase on the bottom of the cup so you need to lever it out from the top with a screwdriver (but likely mangling the top of the headtube a bit in the process). I guess I won't know until I try though!
How I missed the Campy bearing size on the Roubaix I don't know, from what I'd read it was the Tarmac that need those and the Roubaix needed the 36x45 but that link you provided clearly shows I do need the Campy size after all doh.
The spacer issue on the top bearing looks a pain to, tempted just to get the headtube faced down a few mm instead though...

kiwimatt

nferrar wrote:

The spacer issue on the top bearing looks a pain to, tempted just to get the headtube faced down a few mm instead though...

That seems pretty drastic personally I wouldn't go there - the spacer is really a non issue once you've figured out if it's needed. Have had zero performance issues with it and if you want to get the gap between the topcap and headtube perfect just start with a 3mm or 5mm spacer and sand it down until it's perfect this would seem safer than trying to face your carbon headtube?

nferrar

Hmm now I've looked more at the Campy vs IS bit I don't understand why it matters... They both have 45 degree outer bearing angle (which surely is all that matters for frame compatibility) and the difference is the inside bearing angle (36 IS/international vs 45 campag/Italian), But as long as the headset comes with a compression ring then that will match the bearing anyway and same for the crown race - the only issue I can see is if the fork has an integrated crown race or if you need to re-use the compression ring from the old headset and it was for the other 'standard'. But on the Park Tools site it implies the headtubes themselves aren't cross-compatible which confuses me.

kiwimatt

nferrar wrote:

Hmm now I've looked more at the Campy vs IS bit I don't understand why it matters... They both have 45 degree outer bearing angle (which surely is all that matters for frame compatibility) and the difference is the inside bearing angle (36 IS/international vs 45 campag/Italian), But as long as the headset comes with a compression ring then that will match the bearing anyway and same for the crown race - the only issue I can see is if the fork has an integrated crown race or if you need to re-use the compression ring from the old headset and it was for the other 'standard'. But on the Park Tools site it implies the headtubes themselves aren't cross-compatible which confuses me.

My knowledge runs out at this point sorry...! Hopefully someone will be along in a minute with the answer

nferrar

I actually ended up taking it to an LBS today as I couldn't be bothered trying it if I wasn't sure it would be right. Talking to their mechanic (they're a Spesh dealer to luckily) the campy standard bearings are slightly smaller to, not just the inner bearing angle being different so although it will physically fit it leaves some play which eventually wears the inner race and then it's end of frame.

wishitwasallflat

Cheers for posting that update - did they use an extra spacer with the cartridge bearings? I am still puzzled why most folks seem to need them but mine didn't and wondering if yours did.

nferrar

Not picked it up yet but as they're a Spesh dealer I'm assuming they'll probably just fit a mindset back in it rather than change it to something decent. It's only my crap weather bike and to be fair lasted nearly 5 years without being touched so I didn't bother insisting on a cartridge bearing replacement. I'll post up once I know what they've done.

nferrar

Well I'm still confused now, turned out the headset I bought was the right one so they just fitted that, the mechanic that did the work wasn't there though so not sure if he had to use another spacer on top of the bearings and not planning to pull it apart to look any time soon sorry!

Wamas

I just read this post now.

I replaced my mindset headset about 4 months ago, I have a post on here somewhere asking similar questions.
I drifted out the old headset, replaced the crown race, then just pushed in the cane creek IS cartridge bearings, but there was a small 1-2mm gap between the top of the compression ring and the supplied top cap. Rather than fitting a spacer, I used an FSA top cap given to me by a local bikeshop instead. the FSA top cap is totally flat rather than domed like the cane creek one, and then fitted an extra spacer above the top cap.