Buy Bronson in USA - free biking holiday?

notax

I'm considering buying a Santa Cruz Bronson and wondered whether it still makes sense to buy one in the US and combine with a biking holiday - so it comes back second hand. Bike would cost around £6k in the UK. What do you think?

estampida

import tax is a horrible thing and if you're caught, the bill will be massive

there are way of getting around it but it requires someone in the states to mail it here (pref via southern europe)

check the rules, but it should be on a 12 month cut off (you need to own it for a year before charges are waived) and making it look second hand might / might not work......

but you should pay tax, just like starbucks or google...................

felix.london

estampida wrote:

but you should pay tax, just like starbucks or google...................

He will be paying American sales tax.

Starbucks?..Google?..these are huge multinational companies. How is that even similar to a bloke buying a bike?

nicklouse

Notax wrote:

I'm considering buying a Santa Cruz Bronson and wondered whether it still makes sense to buy one in the US and combine with a biking holiday - so it comes back second hand. Bike would cost around £6k in the UK. What do you think?

if you can prove that you have owned it for over three months then you can normally forget about the import tax.

but if not the 15% import tax and VAT to pay before it can leave customs.

Also any warrenty will be in the UK. SC UK (i forget who are the distributors)do not take on bikes/frames that they have not sold IIRC.

notax

Good point re the frame warranty, especially with a carbon frame - although Santa Cruz seem to be much tougher then the Zesty I was considering... Savings and risk probably not worthwhile then, LBS will be happy! I'll start a new post re bike spec...

felix.london

I'd double check with SC re warranty...you never know what they might offer you if you're ready to drop $6K on one of their bikes

dodgy

felix.london wrote:

estampida wrote:

but you should pay tax, just like starbucks or google...................

He will be paying American sales tax.

Starbucks?..Google?..these are huge multinational companies. How is that even similar to a bloke buying a bike?

whoooosh

felix.london

no whoosh there...just a stupid analogy

If he said like Eric Schmidt or whoever own Starbucks then fair enough

The Rookie

No similarity actually, Starbucks etc are using tax AVOIDANCE (well claim to be) which is legal (assuming the avoidance is legal, which is debateable), what this would be is tax EVASION a criminal offence.

dodgy

felix.london wrote:

no whoosh there...just a stupid analogy

If he said like Eric Schmidt or whoever own Starbucks then fair enough

I think estampida was having a little dig at Google and Starbucks, not suggesting there was any similarity between the OP and a multinational.

Perhaps I'm the only one here who interpreted it that way.

estampida

dodgy wrote:

felix.london wrote:

no whoosh there...just a stupid analogy

If he said like Eric Schmidt or whoever own Starbucks then fair enough

I think estampida was having a little dig at Google and Starbucks, not suggesting there was any similarity between the OP and a multinational.

Perhaps I'm the only one here who interpreted it that way.

I was actually referring to the fact that YOU could avoid the import and VAT on the bike entering the EU if you were tricky (like some multinational companies avoiding tax, by being tricky)

but you should pay your tax........ whether its US VAT, import or VAT......

Thewaylander

And he is pointing out that one is avoiding and one is evading.. one being illegal and the other not so your anology makes no actualy sense.

By the way the multinational one being legal

The Rookie

estampida wrote:

I was actually referring to the fact that YOU could avoid the import and VAT on the bike entering the EU if you were tricky (like some multinational companies avoiding tax, by being tricky)

So what legal way of being tricky are you proposing?
Multinationals used legal (or at least justifiable as legal) ways of doing it....what I thing your proposing isn't legal.

milko9000

I always thought the trick was to fly out with a donor bike in a bag, and then fly back with your new one. How's it ever going to get questioned?

paulbox

milko9000 wrote:

I always thought the trick was to fly out with a donor bike in a bag, and then fly back with your new one. How's it ever going to get questioned?

I'm sure the customs chaps have never thought that people might try that...

A few minutes with a serial/frame number and a telephone and they will be able to identify where the bike was bought. Then you can be done for the evasion too.

Chances of being stopped are slim, but there is always a chance... :twisted:

milko9000

A few minutes? Honestly I've not tried this and have no intention to buy a bike anytime soon anyway, but that sounds like a lot of work really. Perhaps I underestimate how bothered they will be about it.

estampida

so tax free import first:

I would get the bike packed into freight that was going to my mate who is an importer in portugal. Its a clothing import company but as long as it did not set off the dogs (there are no drugs) portuguese customs won't give a monkeys, and of course I have paid US VAT so no issue there either. I then mail it to myself inside the EU so its an EEC good dispatched within the EU, I can even get a sales note for the goods in portuguese.... UK customs would assume it been taxed.

so in effect I have used the EU to move around something of value to the UK sans tax.....

Multi-nat

They have their head office in the EU but not the UK, they use the EEC to pull revenue from all the EU business units to a central office, the chosen country has very favorable tax rules and its all extra profit what is not paid in corporation tax for example. This is then moved to the tricky account (it could be tax free, could be a real account in a real country) but the cash the leaves the EU with a minimum amount of tax paid.

so in effect they used the EU to move money out of the UK sans tax .....

I also can get stuff mailed to albania and taken via ferry to greece (into the EU) and then sent from there, again missing out on lots of tax........... :roll:

Dick Scruttock

milko9000 wrote:

I always thought the trick was to fly out with a donor bike in a bag, and then fly back with your new one. How's it ever going to get questioned?

You actually have to declare that xxxxx will be leaving the country then been bought back in. Delt with the BBC when they took camera equipment out and it's all fully documented before it leaves the country so it can be checked off as it arrives back in.

Customs are currently having a big crackdown at the UK airport boarders.

Dick Scruttock

Vat is 20% unless Vat is charged at the reduced rate of 15% of which bike frames are not.

felix.london

If you are properly shipping it you will need to pay import duty (the shipping company will ask for a proper invoice with the value of all the goods they are shipping). That's what import duty is for for people shipping stuff (commercially) around the globe.

If you just turn up with a bike at the airport the US customs certainly wont give a sh1t and neither will the UK customs (unless you're seriously unlucky) then just have a cover story planned...no biggie at all

If I was planning on going to NY again and I had a spare £2K I'd def bring a Carbon Nomad back with me. But I'd be after frame only so would just take it apart and stick it in a suitcase...simples

paulbox

milko9000 wrote:

A few minutes? Honestly I've not tried this and have no intention to buy a bike anytime soon anyway, but that sounds like a lot of work really. Perhaps I underestimate how bothered they will be about it.

Those boys and girls that you see standing around at the airport, just after the luggage carousel's are employed to prevent the illegal importation of everything to the UK. I'll admit that bikes probably aren't top of their list of priorities, but I know they aren't stupid. People have been using this "trick" for years with everything from Camera's to Golf Clubs.

A few minutes... See how long it takes you to find Santa Cruz's head office telephone number on the internet. They're not going to lie for you.

PS. It's not a lot of work, you got to the US on holiday/business and pop in to a bike shop while you're there. I've bought wheels, suits etc. many times, but not a £5k - £6k bike...

The Rookie

My Uncle did just as suggested (Golf clubs) took out old ones, brought back new having played 2 rounds with them, stopped by customs, they said we know you bought them in the USA, so now we just need to prove it, started going through EVERYTHING, in the end he fessed up before they started ringing his credit card company etc (which they said they would do having taklen the cards), on the spot fine is equal to the tax and duty you are trying to withold, much more if you hold out and end in court.

milko9000

PaulBox wrote:

milko9000 wrote:

A few minutes? Honestly I've not tried this and have no intention to buy a bike anytime soon anyway, but that sounds like a lot of work really. Perhaps I underestimate how bothered they will be about it.

A few minutes... See how long it takes you to find Santa Cruz's head office telephone number on the internet. They're not going to lie for you.

That relies on the SC head office being open as you land, and having someone answer the phone and go get the details, surely. But from what The Beginner is saying it can get a bit scary anyway!

paulbox

milko9000 wrote:

PaulBox wrote:

milko9000 wrote:

A few minutes? Honestly I've not tried this and have no intention to buy a bike anytime soon anyway, but that sounds like a lot of work really. Perhaps I underestimate how bothered they will be about it.

A few minutes... See how long it takes you to find Santa Cruz's head office telephone number on the internet. They're not going to lie for you.

That relies on the SC head office being open as you land, and having someone answer the phone and go get the details, surely. But from what The Beginner is saying it can get a bit scary anyway!

They will happily let you wait until the office opens in the US, and as you say, you will have sh@t yourself and fessed up before then anyway...

estampida

thx bbc
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22549434

The Rookie

In my opinion here, HMRC has been too soft, in many case the justification for the avoidance (which are prermitted methods as long as they are Bona Fide) doesn't appear to stand up (making it evasion) and I strongly believe a court case would be an HMRC win - though it will cost a LOT....

anj132

estampida wrote:

but you should pay tax, just like starbucks or google...................

I thought that analogy did make sense. Maybe they should pay tax from a morals point of view, hence the stink in the media and the OP should pay it as well from a morals point of view (although he also has the legal obligation to).

Beginner - OT but given your dislike for accountants and your tax knowledge... do you work for the darkside?

The Rookie

NO - I'm an engineer, but like Starbucks and Google I have an interest in minimising my tax bill/hassles.

When the family went to the US (prior to the increase in allowance from £140 to £400) we went just over our tax allowance, went into the red channel, had all data prepared on spend each and who had gone over by how much (less than £80), Customs officer thanked me for our honesty and waived us on our way nothing to pay. Being stopped and checked would have been so much more hassle, even if we'd paid the duty it would have been worth it.