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hand built wheel parts info..

elderoneelderone Posts: 1,410
edited May 2013 in Road buying advice
Talking to my lbs today about wheels and the owner said he could build me any wheels I want.Now with kysrium elites as a rough guide to what im after,I would like to know where and what parts to buy to make a wheel with max wieght of elites but obviously cheaper.
Looking at straight pull bladed spokes..f18..r 24.
Rim I want is preferably 30mm
So can any one recomend parts and prices that are good price,good rep etc.

I have already spoke to Ugo about his wheels,but like the idea of them being done close to home for any repairs or what ever they may require.
Any info would be appreciated.
Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori

Posts

  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,826
    You're asking the wrong questions, its not the best parts you want, its the parts that work best together. Choice of rim depth for example, will dictate the selection of hub. You want someone who not just builds wheels, but knows which components complement each other and a fit for purpose based on your needs/weight/use etc.

    You also need to figure out what spoke length you need, some spokes come only in even or odd lenghts.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • elderoneelderone Posts: 1,410
    thanks drlodge,thats why im asking and used elites as a guide,the lbs knows me and what i want etc but im just after what sort of prices and parts to give me an idea of cost.Once I have an idea then I can talk to the shop again as I want to source the parts myself.
    Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori
  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,826
    I would say start with the rim (how deep, spoke count etc), then choose the appropriate hub, then the spokes. I'm not an expert, which is why I had my wheels built by Harry Rowland ;-)

    Something like CXP33 rims (28H), Ambrosio hubs and Sapim race spokes? That's what Harry is using.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • pkripperpkripper Posts: 652
    I'd go DT350, sapim lasers and kinlin rims (i think they're XR200 / XR400 or something).

    if that's too spendy, cut back on the hubs to ambrosio zenith or something
  • crankycrankcrankycrank Posts: 1,830
    Not sure sourcing your own parts and have the LBS build them is such a good idea. If something breaks I wouldn't expect the shop to provide any warranty service since they have no control of the quality of the parts. You could just research the best prices and compare what the shop is offering for a complete build but I think paying a little extra for a good LBS is well worth it and fair. Are any of the places that you would buy your parts from separately going to offer replacements if something breaks and as mentioned the builders expertise in selecting compatible parts is worth the cost.
  • elderoneelderone Posts: 1,410
    Cheers chaps,its getting more confusing than I thought.I want a 30mm rim,18f 24 r bladed spokes,thats all I know.
    Basically im not sure if the bike shop could get parts cheaper anyway and I just want an idea of cost and an idea so I can go back the shop with a list then let the guy see what he can do.If its needs the shop to provide the parts for warrentee then thats how it will be for sure.
    So basically..30mm rims..18/24 bladed spokes and what hubs will match both.
    Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori
  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,826
    elderone wrote:
    Cheers chaps,its getting more confusing than I thought.I want a 30mm rim,18f 24 r bladed spokes,thats all I know.

    That's why I suggest you go to a proper wheel builder who can advise on options.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • elderoneelderone Posts: 1,410
    drlodge wrote:
    elderone wrote:
    Cheers chaps,its getting more confusing than I thought.I want a 30mm rim,18f 24 r bladed spokes,thats all I know.

    That's why I suggest you go to a proper wheel builder who can advise on options.
    trouble with that,is there is no wheel builders where I live(apart from lbs) and I think it would be cheeky to ask other builders and take up there time with out any intention of buying.
    Thats why I asked on here then if builders feel they want to contribute then thats cool but I thought lots had wheels built so was hoping others would give me an idea with what they have had done.
    Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori
  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,826
    Send a pm to ugo.santalucia ...
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • pkripperpkripper Posts: 652
    well, in some respects, there's wheelbuilders all over the country who to some degree or another have to provide advice and that sort of thing in order to win business and it's to a degree built into their cost base. So, in my opinion there's no harm in giving one a call and having a quick chat about what you want - you may well end up placing an order there and then - I did!

    The guys at Strada wheels built me a very good powertap set-up, which is different to what I initially went to them with - I respected their advice and am very happy as a result. They're not 100% local to me either.
  • elderoneelderone Posts: 1,410
    drlodge wrote:
    Send a pm to ugo.santalucia ...
    Dr,I said in my Op I,ve already spoke to Ugo and he said he wont build the low spoke count I want, but was a very helpful chap and I know his work is very highly regarded.
    What im hoping for is just info so when i go back to the shop I have an idea in my head and don,t just jump at what ever the shop says without an idea to compare and right questions to ask. :D

    thanks pkripper,just feel cheeky when I have no intention of using any other builder.Thinking on I basically want elites but cheaper,I could just buy elites but every one says hand built are better.
    Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori
  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,826
    If Ugo says he won't build with that low spoke count, there's a reason for it - it won't build a strong or reliable wheel. So why do it? I think this is a big false economy, and you'll have no recourse if something breaks.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • elderoneelderone Posts: 1,410
    drlodge wrote:
    If Ugo says he won't build with that low spoke count, there's a reason for it - it won't build a strong or reliable wheel. So why do it? I think this is a big false economy, and you'll have no recourse if something breaks.
    Thats what Ugo said basically,but mavic build wheels with low spoke count as do shimano and I cant find info to say elites are not strong or reliable so I dont see your point.If I bought elites I,d still get 12 months warrentee.
    Don,t see where its a false economy.That would only happen for me if i bought something I didn,t want.
    Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,965
    Just because one builder won't build wheels with a low spoke count, does not make them a bad idea. I don't see how rim depth will materially affect hub choice. Perhaps someone could enlighten me?
  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,826
    Deeper rims = shorter spokes so you need narrower hub flanges. If the flange is too wide, the spoke will interface with the rim at too great an angle which can weaken the spoke hole in the rim.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,965
    drlodge wrote:
    Deeper rims = shorter spokes so you need narrower hub flanges. If the flange is too wide, the spoke will interface with the rim at too great an angle which can weaken the spoke hole in the rim.

    if you say so - but I run 50mm carbon tubular rims built onto wide flange hubs with plain gauge spokes with no issues whatsoever. They are crit wheels, so they've been getting plenty of stress in the two seasons I've been using them...
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,698
    elderone wrote:
    drlodge wrote:
    If Ugo says he won't build with that low spoke count, there's a reason for it - it won't build a strong or reliable wheel. So why do it? I think this is a big false economy, and you'll have no recourse if something breaks.
    Thats what Ugo said basically,but mavic build wheels with low spoke count as do shimano and I cant find info to say elites are not strong or reliable so I dont see your point.If I bought elites I,d still get 12 months warrentee.
    Don,t see where its a false economy.That would only happen for me if i bought something I didn,t want.

    Mavic and Shimano use agricultural spokes, which only go in their proprietary rims and flanges. I don't use them as the point of hand built is that of NON using proprietary parts that cannot be restocked or sourced as needed.
  • rrsodlrrsodl Posts: 486
    elderone wrote:
    Talking to my lbs today about wheels and the owner said he could build me any wheels I want.Now with kysrium elites as a rough guide to what im after,I would like to know where and what parts to buy to make a wheel with max wieght of elites but obviously cheaper.
    Looking at straight pull bladed spokes..f18..r 24.
    Rim I want is preferably 30mm
    So can any one recomend parts and prices that are good price,good rep etc.

    I have already spoke to Ugo about his wheels,but like the idea of them being done close to home for any repairs or what ever they may require.
    Any info would be appreciated.

    My advise would be to get your LBS to help you put together a list of components - They should know and if they cannot help you with that then look for somebody that can.
  • elderoneelderone Posts: 1,410
    thanks chaps,more confusing than I thought.I was expecting a nice list of this or that part etc but obviously not that simple.I will go back to bike shop and with the knowledge that I have no knowledge and let them sort it.
    thanks again.
    Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,698
    elderone wrote:
    thanks chaps,more confusing than I thought.I was expecting a nice list of this or that part etc but obviously not that simple.I will go back to bike shop and with the knowledge that I have no knowledge and let them sort it.
    thanks again.

    You need 1 x A 23 24 holes black machined
    you need 1 x A 23 28 holes black machined OC (off centre)
    You need 1 x Hope PRO 3 front hub 24 holes
    you need 1 x Hope PRO 3 rear hub 28 holes 130 mm Shimano
    You need 24 x Sapim Laser spokes 283 mm for radial front
    You need 14 x Sapim Race spokes 285 mm for rear Drive side 2 crossed
    You need 14 x Sapim Race spokes 288 mm for rear Non drive side 2 crossed
    You need 52 brass nipples 12 mm

    Better?
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,601
    Imposter wrote:
    Just because one builder won't build wheels with a low spoke count, does not make them a bad idea.

    I can understand a builder not wanting to build low spoke count wheels as they would seem to be more trouble, in the long run, than say 32 spoke wheels. Plus when a single spoke goes the bike becomes unrideable. Also performance gains would appear to be minimal at best, despite claims to the contrary.
  • elderoneelderone Posts: 1,410
    elderone wrote:
    thanks chaps,more confusing than I thought.I was expecting a nice list of this or that part etc but obviously not that simple.I will go back to bike shop and with the knowledge that I have no knowledge and let them sort it.
    thanks again.

    You need 1 x A 23 24 holes black machined
    you need 1 x A 23 28 holes black machined OC (off centre)
    You need 1 x Hope PRO 3 front hub 24 holes
    you need 1 x Hope PRO 3 rear hub 28 holes 130 mm Shimano
    You need 24 x Sapim Laser spokes 283 mm for radial front
    You need 14 x Sapim Race spokes 285 mm for rear Drive side 2 crossed
    You need 14 x Sapim Race spokes 288 mm for rear Non drive side 2 crossed
    You need 52 brass nipples 12 mm

    Better?
    Thanks very much Ugo...
    Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori
  • rrsodlrrsodl Posts: 486
    Imposter wrote:
    Just because one builder won't build wheels with a low spoke count, does not make them a bad idea. I don't see how rim depth will materially affect hub choice. Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

    Most "responsible" builders would shy away from building low spoke count wheels. On the other hand there are lots of people, I used to be of them, that want a builder to hand pick parts off the shelf and build them a set of wheels that resembles those fancy Mavic, Fulcrum, etc. and save them money in the process. I have, on one of my bikes, an old set of shimano wheels with 16 spokes in the front and 20 in the back. When I got these wheels I didn't know anything about wheels and my criteria to buy wheels at the time was that they should come within budget and that they looked good :D I was 17.5 stones at the time and rode the wheels without a worry in the world :lol: I even took part in a 90mls sportive. Now, on closer inspection, the spokes are about twice the thickness of a standard spoke on my other wheels. The rim also seems stronger than standard rims I've seen. So, what does all this tell me? Well, the weight of those 16 spokes must be about the same as 32 DB 1.8mm. The weight of the whole wheel is about the same as the weight of a 28 spokes front wheel I built for a friend. if I were to build a wheel with components readily available off the shelf with equal number of spokes ( 16) then I'm pretty sure those wheels would be lighter but they would not last very long and would put my safety at risk too. Now, the other way would be to go and buy the very same components that shimano used to build the wheelset. I can't do that anymore as shimano stopped making those wheels 3 or 4 years ago but if I could find them then I would not be saving any money, quite to the contrary. I think one spoke was about £8.99 the last time I saw them. So, what I'm trying to say is that I think a wheel can be built with more spokes, at the same weight and stronger than those low spoke count wheels, with the advantage that when something goes wrong ie, you bend the rim then you can be sure the wheel can be fixed without braking the bank.
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