How light is realistically possible...

meesterbond

...for the following pair of wheels:

Budget - £700
Weight - 80-85kg
Usage - Sunday best, fair weather, Alps / Majorca etc so must be light and stiff enough to go up and brake well enough to come down but won't be used day-to-day

I'm building up an 'aero' bike at the moment and will move my Cosmic Carbones onto that and the missus has kindly agreed to buy some replacements for the lightweight bike but for the life of me, I cannot decide what to go for.

Hed Ardennes seem expensive for what they are, Shamals and Fulcrum Zeros are an option, not averse to handbuilts but not sure where to start. Was looking at Wheelsmith Race23s but Derek isn't taking orders...

I've searched extensively here, but just ended up more confused than when I started when I was just going to go out and buy a set of Kysrium SLs or a higher speced pair of Cosmics!

Any thoughts?

Camcycle1974

Kinlin xr200 rims <400g, Laser spokes and alloy nipples. Should leave plenty of cash for some lightweight hubs. Probably won't last very long but at least they can be re-built unlike a light weight factory wheel. 1300g would be my best estimate as a minimum weight without too few spokes.

Crozza

if weight is the main criterion, why are you looking at clinchers?

adambutterwick

Dura Ace c24s: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-dura-ac ... lset-2013/
or non tubeless: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-dura-ac ... lset-2013/

meesterbond

Very happy to think about tubs... in fact the more I think about it the more I like the idea...

Also bike is Campag so I'll get struck by lightning if I stuck Shimano wheels on.

ednino

meesterbond wrote:

Also bike is Campag so I'll get struck by lightning if I stuck Shimano wheels on.

pkripper

I'd go for the lightish but dependable dt240s, cx-ray spokes, on 28h archetypes - not sure of the weight overall, but probably around the 15-1600g mark. And i'd trust them implicitly if built by a good builder.

As for lighter, easily possible, but coming down an alpine descent, excessively light wouldn't be my choice.

meesterbond

Ok, so done a bit more research and have a quote for Crono F20s on Tune hubs (28/28) which would come in at sub 1300g. If the Cronos are too lightweight, then Nemesis rims would be more than adequate and still come around 1450g I'd imagine, plus they'd probably be stiffer.

The other alternative was Cadence rims on the same hubs est. at 1350g a set, but I think I fancy tubs for best...

It would be so much easier if I could just afford a pair of 303s...

Tb2121

If you want the lightest and strongest wheels- try spada bike- it's an Italian company- wheels made by Snr Spada, he has a shop north of Milan, and makes absolutely wonderful wheels. They are all tubular but are a marvel of engineering- you can strip the hubs down in 1 minute, which helps with upkeep, they have been tested against some of the best wheels out there and are in the top 5 for weight, strength etc. Mr Spada is an absolute gent, he'll tell you anything you want to know- and his customer service is something that only used to be available in the 50's! Italian cyclists love spada wheels, and he is well known over there. The only issue they have had is in 2010 a couple of riders who used power washers to clean their bikes blasted the bearings in the rear hub- causing the hub over a 6month period to seize up, one rider smashed up his super record rear and front derailleur because of it. Mr spada paid for the riders new wheels, new mechs and slightly changed the designs to try and stop water from a power washer getting into the bearings- I don't think you'd get that from Fulcrum, Campag, or shimano- and in a way I think the rider was stupid in the first place using a power washer on a bike- but there you go.

Tb2121

Spadabike.com - brava wheels -1kg per tub pair
Enve spada- 850g per tub pair
Stilleto- 1.2kg per tub pair
Oxygeno- 1.3kg per tub pair
Spillo- 945g per tub pair
Tivan- 35/50mm carbon- 1020g/1200g pair tub

These range from £400-£1400 obviously the carbon are some of more expensive wheels but still great prices.
Now that's what I call light- check out hubs on YouTube- beautiful.

ugo.santalucia

Tb2121 wrote:

If you want the lightest and strongest wheels- try spada bike- it's an Italian company- wheels made by Snr Spada, he has a shop north of Milan, and makes absolutely wonderful wheels. They are all tubular but are a marvel of engineering- you can strip the hubs down in 1 minute, which helps with upkeep, they have been tested against some of the best wheels out there and are in the top 5 for weight, strength etc. Mr Spada is an absolute gent, he'll tell you anything you want to know- and his customer service is something that only used to be available in the 50's! Italian cyclists love spada wheels, and he is well known over there. The only issue they have had is in 2010 a couple of riders who used power washers to clean their bikes blasted the bearings in the rear hub- causing the hub over a 6month period to seize up, one rider smashed up his super record rear and front derailleur because of it. Mr spada paid for the riders new wheels, new mechs and slightly changed the designs to try and stop water from a power washer getting into the bearings- I don't think you'd get that from Fulcrum, Campag, or shimano- and in a way I think the rider was stupid in the first place using a power washer on a bike- but there you go.

There is a fine line between giving advice and advertising... the latter is not allowed... you seem to keep going on about these folks quite a lot for a newcomer. In fact, all your posts but one are about advising these people

BTW: I have lived 27 years of my relatively short life in Italy and never heard of mr Spada and still go down to Italy fairly regularly and I have never seen a Spada wheel, so let's keep things in perspective and avoid false advertising, shall we?

Tb2121

No false advertising here mate, just someone who hates the big companies kicking the little competitors, I'm building up an all Italian bike so had to do plenty of research on Italian components- if I've found out that cicli andreis, cherierici cycles and spada bikes are good companies to talk to why shouldn't I tell the rest of the community- in not saying buy from these but at least email them and see what they can offer. I've had to put a lot of leg work in to find out about companies who offer great service in a country that is frankly on its knees- why shouldn't I give them a shout out when they've been so good to me- so please get off your high horse.

And one more thing ugo, my last 2 posts have been about ceramic bearings and Campagnolo khamsins- i flutter about a bit if I'm spell focused on spam advertising- and as an Italian if expect you to be proud of a cycling heritage that can offer companies such as spada who offer products that are artisan in the only way Italian products can be.

Tb2121

Oh and another great company to look at is Marchisio- they do wheels and they have had a special offer on- fully Italian made, great hubs, good spokes and look cool. Again just advice.

ugo.santalucia

Tb2121 wrote:

and as an Italian if expect you to be proud of a cycling heritage that can offer companies such as spada who offer products that are artisan in the only way Italian products can be.

Proud of the Italian cycling heritage? What Coppi, Tullio Campagnolo and Cino Cinelli? Then we can draw a line...

Just yesterday I found out that Rossin is only a sticker maker these days, for frames made in China. Probably 10% of Colnago frames are made in Italy and the same applies for most of the others manufacturers (note I haven't use the word frame builders).
The latest Campagnolo group sets are not something to be proud of, I'm afraid... what used to be precision engineering has become Chinese-quality rubbish...

I'm afraid none of the components that your friend Mr Spada uses for his wheels is made in Italy (unless he uses Alpina spokes, which he probably doesn't), let's hope at least the wheels are assembled in Italy, as most of the times this not the case either.
Marchisio? I have a Marchisio freewheel from 1979, still working, the same cannot be said about a pair of Centaur Ergo level class 2008...

Tb2121

This is my exact point mate- my Scapin bike is 100% made and developed in Italy, Marchisio wheels are again made in italy (I don't know about where they get the carbon from), spada wheels are made in Italy with hubs that spada developed. In today's world it's hard enough to get objects that aren't made or produced in Asia but I'd rather give my hard earned cash to a bloke who's trying to produce a good quality product against the giants that are Campag, shimano, etc etc.
And yes why shouldn't you be proud of the Italian heritage?! It seems you forget the halcyon days of Campagnolo when they cared about a product- I ask you to email mr spada and see how much he cares about his product and tell me that the Italian heritage has gone- he's passionate as are the people I've dealt with at Scapin and Marchisio.

To be honest I think this has run its course but at least apologise for busting my balls about false advertising- I understand the need to be vigilant but your attack was completely uncalled for. I set about my intentions in previous posts and if you had read them you'd understand where I was coming from.

ugo.santalucia

Tb2121 wrote:

This is my exact point mate- my Scapin bike is 100% made and developed in Italy, Marchisio wheels are again made in italy (I don't know about where they get the carbon from), spada wheels are made in Italy with hubs that spada developed. In today's world it's hard enough to get objects that aren't made or produced in Asia but I'd rather give my hard earned cash to a bloke who's trying to produce a good quality product against the giants that are Campag, shimano, etc etc.
And yes why shouldn't you be proud of the Italian heritage?! It seems you forget the halcyon days of Campagnolo when they cared about a product- I ask you to email mr spada and see how much he cares about his product and tell me that the Italian heritage has gone- he's passionate as are the people I've dealt with at Scapin and Marchisio.

To be honest I think this has run its course but at least apologise for busting my balls about false advertising- I understand the need to be vigilant but your attack was completely uncalled for. I set about my intentions in previous posts and if you had read them you'd understand where I was coming from.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but there are at least 50 Mr Spada in this country, without the need to buy from overseas... some of them even pretend to have developed their own hubs... laser etching your logo on a set of hubs cost 1 USD per pair in Taiwan, I know because I enquired... don't think for a minute Mr Spada has a CNC machining workshop in his premises or a team dedicated to CAD design of alloy components. He gets his hubs shipped from Bitex like everybody else who claim to have developed something. There is only one Tullio Campagnolo and he is no longer with us.

I don't apologise, nothing personal, but if you come across like someone who is here to advertise a product, as a moderator I give you a warning, if you are genuinely enthusiastic time will tell, you can't expect people who have been here for many years to trust you when you have started posting yesterday... :?

Tb2121

Well I question your role as a moderator then. Its the age old question- who will police the police? It seems i have to prove my innocence!!!! WTF!
If you actually read my threads you would find I was sharing my "experience" of building a bike- the companies I mentioned are 5 in number- all independent. If i had a conflict of interest then which one am I working for?? I'm a new to the forum because I've nearly finished the bike, and wanted to share my build with a forum who have helped me with advice over the past 18 months (through stealthly looking at posts). Up to yesterday I had no need to be a member here, and I only became a member to help other people like me who want a super bike but not for super money. Shoot me!! your attitude literally stinks of being holier than thou!

but if we are going to get pedantic about this, what about your posts:

"If it's steel you're after, get a custom made one from a british artisan... look http://www.steve-goff-frames.co.uk/frames.shtml" - Do you have a conflict of interest here? Because to me it does seem like you are forcing the issue somewhat.

Another quote directly from you regarding someones knee pain:
"More than damage is probably inflammation, so yes, rest, ibuprofen (you can use the local anti-inflammatory cream = voltarol instead of swallowing pills) and I would use an ice pack too. If ignored it can become serious, right now it probably isn't
If the syntoms persist get referred to a specialist.
If you press on the patella, does it hurt?"

What are you on about- offering wikipedia advice and even advising medication to someone you don't even know. If they took your advice and suffered from kidney disease, ulcerative colitis, or stomachs ulcers- where do you stand Mr moderator???

Maybe anther example regarding Rotor Q rings:

"May I say that the all oval concept is a lot of bulxxhit?

I have a colleague sport scientist who has researched the efficiency of pedalling action according to many different styles and the conclusion is that the most efficient is the one you are most comfortable with, as you have optimised over the years your muscles to work that way... whether that is circling, ovalling, stomping or pulling up and down... there is no good for all.

To the OP, you can buy Q rings if you want to, it is just another way to spend some disposable income"

May I quote:
KNEE JOINT FORCES IN CYCLING AT TWO WORKLOADS WITH CIRCULAR AND NON-CIRCULAR CHAINRINGS
Hermann Schwameder, Gerda Strutzenberger, Tobias Wunsch, Josef Kröll, 2012.

Why do appropriate non-circular chainrings yield more crank power compared to conventional circular systems during isokinetic pedaling? L. Malfait, M.Mech.Eng. G. Storme, M.Sc.Mech.Eng. M. Derdeyn, M.Sc.Mech.Eng & Appl.Math. 2010.

Effects of chainring design on performance in competitive cyclists. C. O'Hara, 2011. CalPoly.

Which actually support the use of ovoid chainrings for increasing power and speed and apparently do not increase load at the femoral/tibial or patella/femoral joint. So your "mate" and the advice you give is wrong- but who can tell the Moderator that?

Please in future if you have an issue with a topic/member etc get in contact with the person first, because at the moment you are oppressing people who are only trying to share their experiences.

gaddster

No offence ugo but what is your actual problem with this chap?

ugo.santalucia

gaddster wrote:

No offence ugo but what is your actual problem with this chap?

Nothing... up to today he had intervened on 8 occasions, 7 of which to advise to buy frames and wheels from an Italian source... I was wondering whether he was genuine or simply advertising... we had cases in the past... at the time I was not the Police, now I am, so I pierced him to see if he is real... he seems real and very lively, so all is good, no point to make a big deal, the rest was just usual exchange of opinions, we like opinionated members...

gaddster

Well it's certainly spirited in here today! :-)

nweststeyn

Well this has been entertaining, at least... but not very informative.

ugo.santalucia

gaddster wrote:

Well it's certainly spirited in here today! :-)

Normal day in the office then... bad weather for cycling, good for an argument...

ugo.santalucia

nweststeyn wrote:

Well this has been entertaining, at least... but not very informative.

What do you mean? I revealed that all the R &D comes down to printing stickers... is that not informative enough???

nweststeyn

I want to know what wheels I should buy... I have £75 and would like the wheelset to be under 1000g and really good at climbing and descending, but also be bombproof and low maintenance.

8)

ugo.santalucia

nweststeyn wrote:

I want to know what wheels I should buy... I have £75 and would like the wheelset to be under 1000g and really good at climbing and descending, but also be bombproof and low maintenance.

8)

I think a chap on weightweenies did something similar... it involves a lot of drilling and machining and mismatching components, but it is definitively possible/ bar the bombproofness, of course... let me know if you are interested, as I am!

nweststeyn

I'll send pics of the wheels when they're folded around a fence

sloppyschleckonds

Great thread, would read again. 8/10

ooermissus

Signor Strada's website is poetic when filtered through the magic that is Google translate:

Some models have the rear wheels of an asymmetrically.
All components are selected and modified to create the perfect synergy
that enhances the features.

The housings of the nipples in the circle are processed manually
to obtain the perfect output directions of the radius
and the proper support of the surfaces nipple-circle.

In this way, in addition to eliminating the side loading of the thread,
the wheel becomes less sensitive to loosening of the rays.

The result is durable enough wheels,
how to read ...
and beautiful.

dodgy

ugo.santalucia wrote:

gaddster wrote:

No offence ugo but what is your actual problem with this chap?

Nothing... up to today he had intervened on 8 occasions, 7 of which to advise to buy frames and wheels from an Italian source... I was wondering whether he was genuine or simply advertising... we had cases in the past... at the time I was not the Police, now I am, so I pierced him to see if he is real... he seems real and very lively, so all is good, no point to make a big deal, the rest was just usual exchange of opinions, we like opinionated members...

Not a fan of moderating on this site over the years, but it's better these days.

I'd say your moderating on this issue was excellent, you challenged someone and uncovered his real intentions. Fair enough.

Tb2121

Ye but Ugo, you've got it wrong again- I did not once advise a member to buy- I advised to look and offered an opinion. I also did not advise he buy/anyone buy from one source. I shared 7 sources I have dealt with- please as a mod read my posts properly and then make a decision instead of jumping to conclusions. Anyway enough, but at least learn from this because you risk looking silly- though I understand your need to be vigilant.

meesterbond

Thanks for the input but being Bikeradar I changed the criteria, upped the budget and settled on a pair of Campag Bora One Black Label Tubs... should be here some time next week.

Now to decide on which tubs to use.