Should cyclists legally wear a helmet ?

Phil Fouracre

Another pointless thread! I want to illegally wear a helmet - is that safer than legally wearing one?????

MattC59

F*ck me, this again :roll:

Wear a helmet, don't wear a helmet. Make your choice, don't try to impose your opinion on others, and stop p*ssing and whining when others chose to do the opposite to you.

You can find stats on the internet to support any argument.

VTech

MattC59 wrote:

F*ck me, this again :roll:

Wear a helmet, don't wear a helmet. Make your choice, don't try to impose your opinion on others, and stop p*ssing and whining when others chose to do the opposite to you.

You can find stats on the internet to support any argument.

Read what ive written and you will see that I have not, nor would I ever force my opinion. I find it stupid to ride on the road without a helmet but I wouldnt make anyone do it. Im also not p*ssing and whining as others dont agree with me, do you honestly think I give a rats backside what people like you think ? I have simply said that I find it stupid that people wouldnt want to be safer thats all.

BTW, im yet to find proof of anyone dying due to wearing a helmet on a road bike but there are the odd one or two where someone had died by hitting their head on the floor (not you of course as its full of rocks)

Anyway, im off for a ride, its down to 36 degrees right now with a slight wind so im going to get that helmet on and cycle my legs away into the dessert........



























Dont worry though, like Arnie, ill be back

ooermissus

Vtech wrote:

im going to get that helmet on and cycle my legs away into the dessert

LOL. Blancmange?

MattC59

VTech wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

F*ck me, this again :roll:

Wear a helmet, don't wear a helmet. Make your choice, don't try to impose your opinion on others, and stop p*ssing and whining when others chose to do the opposite to you.

You can find stats on the internet to support any argument.

Read what ive written and you will see that I have not, nor would I ever force my opinion. I find it stupid to ride on the road without a helmet but I wouldnt make anyone do it. Im also not p*ssing and whining as others dont agree with me, do you honestly think I give a rats backside what people like you think ? I have simply said that I find it stupid that people wouldnt want to be safer thats all.

BTW, im yet to find proof of anyone dying due to wearing a helmet on a road bike but there are the odd one or two where someone had died by hitting their head on the floor (not you of course as its full of rocks)

Anyway, im off for a ride, its down to 36 degrees right now with a slight wind so im going to get that helmet on and cycle my legs away into the dessert........

Dont worry though, like Arnie, ill be back

And once again you assume that this was directed at you. If it was, I'd have quoted you. It was directed at the subject matter and anyone reading the topic. Stop being so f*cking sensitive :roll:
Exactly what is someone like me ?

pete_s

Lets make our environment safer so we wont need to wear helmets. Why are the Dutch not wearing them? Those guys cycle loads, are experts at riding in groups and yet I never see them wearing them in videos and pictures.

essjaydee

You mean, make wearing a helmet whilst riding a bicycle compulsory.....No.
Police resourcing is diabolical at present, so it wouldn't be effective anyway!

I wonder if more would wear a helmet, if they had to cover the medical costs of any head injuries incurred, if cycling without wearing one and they were involved in an accident?

Just a thought....

spen666

essjaydee wrote:

You mean, make wearing a helmet whilst riding a bicycle compulsory.....No.
Police resourcing is diabolical at present, so it wouldn't be effective anyway!

I wonder if more would wear a helmet, if they had to cover the medical costs of any head injuries incurred, if cycling without wearing one and they were involved in an accident?

Just a thought....

I think you need to engage brain cells to call it a thought, and you clearly have not done so.

What next? make heart attack victims pay for their medical treatment on basis that their lifestyle contributed to heart attack?

how about making RTA victims pay for treatment, I mean if they had not been on road/ pavement etc they would have not had accident?


A stupid suggestion and clearly one without thought as to the consequences

steve6690

You can't withdraw medical treatment for people who weren't wearing a helmet. How are you going to make someone pay if they can't afford it ? Take their house ? If you start down that road then where does it end ? Lots of people engage in sporting activities that carry more risk than sitting at home getting fat on cheese and watching tv. Some end up getting injured and needing treatment. I go scuba diving to deeper than average depths racking up a lot of decompression stops. If I get it wrong I could end up getting helicoptered to a recompression chamber - total costs could be around £20k to the NHS. Should I have to pay too ? People go climbing, hang gliding, play rugby/football etc etc. Where do you draw the line ? The NHS is there to treat us, not tell us how to conduct our chosen leisure activities.
It would make more sense to target illnesses resulting from obesity, smoking and boozing. These cost the NHS an absolute fortune every year but you just can't do it.
Plus, mandatory wearing of helmets is completely unenforceable. People simply wouldn't do it and most would just refuse to stop for the police.
One thing to note though, if you do sustain a head injury from a road traffic collision, you will probably find that the motorists insurance company will try to reduce what they pay you because you weren't wearing a helmet.

pete_s

steve6690 wrote:

Lots of people engage in sporting activities that carry more risk than sitting at home getting fat on cheese and watching tv.

Just sticking with the act of riding a bike, this isn't actually true. By being inactive you're more likely to develop health problems later on in life which will not only cost the NHS more, but more importantly shorten your life span and standard of living.

steve6690

Immediate risk. As in "risky pursuits". Nobody would define over eating as an extreme sport. We are arguing the same point

Druidor

Making helmets compulsory would incur a lot of effort policing it.

Personally think children should wear helmets. And once an adult if the dont want to continue so be it.

Get them using earlier may keep them using in later life.

I make my kids wear a helmet and high viz if on the road. As I do.

Some protection is better than none it cannot prevent major accident damage but can be the tipping from being a cabbage and recovering.

nicklouse

interesting ruling in Germany.

Bare-headed cyclists at 'some fault' for injuries

Cyclists who suffer head injuries in a collision but are not wearing helmets are at least partly to blame – even if the crash itself was not their fault, a German court has ruled.

The Higher Regional Court of Schleswig Holstein state ruled that although there was no law to force cyclists to wear helmets, they so obviously offered protection against injury that all reasonably minded people would do so.

Helmets were also affordable, so there was no reason not to wear one, the court said.

The ruling came after a woman sued the driver of a car for damages following an accident. She had been riding past the car on her way to work when the door was opened, and she smashed into it, banging her head on the ground as she fell.

She suffered serious head injuries which kept her in hospital for two months, and needed further treatment afterwards. She asked the court to rule on the car owner's fault in the incident, so she could pursue her for damages.

But the judge ruled that the injuries she suffered were 20 percent the fault of the cyclist for not wearing a helmet. She said a helmet would not have prevented the accident but that the cyclist had failed to take reasonable measures to protect herself because she was not wearing one.

"Cyclists these days are exposed to a particular risk of injury in daily traffic. The traffic these days is particularly tight, with motorized vehicles dominating and cyclists often only seen by drivers as hindering the free flow of traffic," the judge's verdict read.

She said there was no serious doubt that helmets were effective protection against head injury and that they were affordable – meaning that any reasonable person would buy and wear one.

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20130617-50353.html

Yellow Peril

I think the contributory negligence argument for failing to wear a helmet whilst cycling is probably inevitable. I can foresee it in most sports/activities where a participant fails to use a form of protection that is accepted as being a recognised safety measure for that particular activity be it scrum caps or shoulder pads for rugby or back protectors for motorcyclists then a judge may rule in their favour but discount for a contributory factor.

slowbike

Yellow Peril wrote:

I think the contributory negligence argument for failing to wear a helmet whilst cycling is probably inevitable. I can foresee it in most sports/activities where a participant fails to use a form of protection that is accepted as being a recognised safety measure for that particular activity be it scrum caps or shoulder pads for rugby or back protectors for motorcyclists then a judge may rule in their favour but discount for a contributory factor.

it does sound as though we are heading that way.
personally I usually wear a helmet whilst riding - the only times I don't are when I'm out for an "amble" as I'm unlikely to get myself into a situation where I'd need it (ie quiet roads/tracks, slow speed & stop when traffic comes along).
As such I'm against compulsory helmet wearing - but do agree that it is a reasonable safety precaution to take - certainly in most cases.

Perhaps the Pro compulsory helmet camp should remove their helmets occasionally and see what it feels like to ride free. Do you feel more vulnerable? If so perhaps you need to consider your riding style too - as has been said in this thread - a helmet is only a level of protection - it's not a magic forcefield - you can still receive significant injuries whilst wearing one!

VTech

Are the pro-compulsary arguing for 100% helmet wearing or just whilst on the road ?

I can personally see that cycling in the gardens, park etc would be nice with the wind blowing against the bald head but for the life of me cant fathom why riding on the road is better without than with.

slowbike

VTech wrote:

I can personally see that cycling in the gardens, park etc would be nice with the wind blowing against the bald head but for the life of me cant fathom why riding on the road is better without than with.

Have you tried it? (obviously at a sensible speed on suitable roads).

Helmets aren't uncomfortable but you do notice wearing them. We can ride down a cyclepath - but it's a fairly limiting ride - rather nicer to go along a couple of back routes to a pub for dinner (no - not for 9 pints) and amble back. It was quite refreshing not riding in full lycra, shoes, gloves and helmet .. or cycle computer/GPS!

For me it's not a case of one is better than the other - it's just nice to have the choice. IMHO, pretty much all safety gear should be optional and ppl should occasionally do without it as I'm sure having safety gear makes them more complacent.

VTech

TBH, ive never ventured out without a helmet, having said that I never wore one as a kid and my mode of transport was a BMX from the age of maybe 5-17. Never had a serious accident or hospitalised from falling off.

But..... I would never let my kids ride the parks without wearing a helmet although I do let them ride in the gardens without (double standards ?)

I guess the point is, I am definitely pro safety, more so than pro helmet but believe that wearing a helmet is a definite safety tool.

Yellow Peril

Perhaps the Pro compulsory helmet camp should remove their helmets occasionally and see what it feels like to ride free. Do you feel more vulnerable? If so perhaps you need to consider your riding style too - as has been said in this thread - a helmet is only a level of protection - it's not a magic forcefield - you can still receive significant injuries whilst wearing one![/quote]

You have to possess a licence, be at least 16 years of age, have insurance and wear a BS kite marked helmet to ride a moped capable of no more than 30 mph on Britain's roads. Do you think it would be sensible to remove those requirements for moped riders? I don't I think they are common sense

Yet you can get on a bicycle with none of the above, ride shoulder to shoulder with your mates at speeds close to that of a moped, on a bicycle. Crazy isn't it? My top speed on a bicycle to date is 51 mph. I was lycra clad but had a helmet. If I'd have crashed the gravel rash would have hurt but at least I had some chance of avoiding a serious head injury with the helmet.

Always wear a helmet. Don't think of it as an infringement of your freedom or civil liberty just think of it as plain common sense.

Tim Dukes

Except it isn't common sense. Helmets are not even classed as PPE by the HSE as they don't fulfil the basic "personal protection" requirements. If we were really serious about promoting helmets as a safety tool we should be using the same standards as the aforementioned moped riders. Not some micky-mouse arbitrary measures used to test the helmets currently being sold as a universal panacea to all cycle accidents. Would anyone object to wearing more appropriate safety head gear comparable to that worn by modped riders? I would!

Indeed, if concerns about safety were extended to all road users (just to extend the moped argument a bit further) then car drivers and occupants should be wearing helmets too. The head injury rates in car accidents would immeadiately fall if they were compulsory...

slowbike

Yellow Peril wrote:

You have to possess a licence, be at least 16 years of age, have insurance and wear a BS kite marked helmet to ride a moped capable of no more than 30 mph on Britain's roads. Do you think it would be sensible to remove those requirements for moped riders? I don't I think they are common sense

Yet you can get on a bicycle with none of the above, ride shoulder to shoulder with your mates at speeds close to that of a moped, on a bicycle. Crazy isn't it? My top speed on a bicycle to date is 51 mph. I was lycra clad but had a helmet. If I'd have crashed the gravel rash would have hurt but at least I had some chance of avoiding a serious head injury with the helmet.

Always wear a helmet. Don't think of it as an infringement of your freedom or civil liberty just think of it as plain common sense.

The choice to wear a helmet or not is a freedom - it would be the compulsion to do so that is an infringement.
You mention riding shoulder to shoulder with other cyclists at up to around 30mph - would I wear a helmet? Of course I would. But what if I was riding sub 10mph away from other traffic - should I wear a helmet then? Well - no harm in doing so, but the chance of an off is significantly reduced as is the likely hood of head injury - it isn't removed, there is still the chance- just as there is a chance you'll trip at the top of the stairs and fall down head first - but you don't wear a helmet for that do you?

My concern with safety devices - and compulsion to use them - is that the users get complacent:
"I've got a helmet on so I can ride safely" ... no - you've got a helmet on so you have limited protection against a head injury in case of an accident.
"I've got lights on so everyone can see me" ... no - you've got lights on to make it more likely that someone will see you - doesn't mean they will or that they'll recognise it - you still need to be vigilant.

Safety kit is not there to absolve the user of responsibility - it is in addition to the normal precautions that should be taken. That is what is slowly being eroded away.

So when I suggest that you take your lid of and have a ride - you need to consider where/when/how you're riding and do so appropriately - then perhaps you'll appreciate the helmet as an additional tool.

nicklouse

Slowbike wrote:

personally I usually wear a helmet whilst riding - the only times I don't are when I'm out for an "amble" as I'm unlikely to get myself into a situation where I'd need it (ie quiet roads/tracks, slow speed & stop when traffic comes along).

that is what put a mate in hospital for 3 days. he had a slow speed fall off. woke up in hospital. Was not hit nor was anything involved. he just keeled over.

Tim Dukes

Nicklouse, was the cause of your mates accident ever discovered? People don't normally just keel over so I'd be thinking along the lines of a coronary, stroke, fit or something like that. Granted a helmet may have saved a lot of grief (being sort of designed for that kind of fall, on the limited info. provided) but would the fall have been any better if he'd been walking without a helmet?

slowbike

nicklouse wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

personally I usually wear a helmet whilst riding - the only times I don't are when I'm out for an "amble" as I'm unlikely to get myself into a situation where I'd need it (ie quiet roads/tracks, slow speed & stop when traffic comes along).

that is what put a mate in hospital for 3 days. he had a slow speed fall off. woke up in hospital. Was not hit nor was anything involved. he just keeled over.

I did say unlikely - how many ppl who are out for an amble on their bikes have a fall of any significance? Just because it's statistically unlikely doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. I'd wager you're statistically more likely to fall down the stairs.

I say it time and time again - its all about assessing the risks.

smidsy

I know 2 people who are only still here because they did wear a helmet.

I know there are debates around the effectiveness of them but based on the above I know where I stand on this.

Yellow Peril

As another poster says it is all about risk assessment. Riding a bicycle which is not a natural activity and involves precision balance and speed (even the slowest of riding is at a jogging pace). Factor in pedals which secure you to the machine, generally flimsy clothing and the fact that it is an activity mostly involves sharing territory with other vehicles and the risks start to mount up.

I'm on my third helmet since I started wearing one back in the mid nineties. The other two were totalled on those occasions when I was taken out by cars.

VTech

Does anyone know of someone who has died or been seriously injured because they wore a helmet whilst cycling ?

Just a thought.........

Hoopdriver

Slowbike wrote:

nicklouse wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

personally I usually wear a helmet whilst riding - the only times I don't are when I'm out for an "amble" as I'm unlikely to get myself into a situation where I'd need it (ie quiet roads/tracks, slow speed & stop when traffic comes along).

that is what put a mate in hospital for 3 days. he had a slow speed fall off. woke up in hospital. Was not hit nor was anything involved. he just keeled over.

I did say unlikely - how many ppl who are out for an amble on their bikes have a fall of any significance? Just because it's statistically unlikely doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. I'd wager you're statistically more likely to fall down the stairs.

I say it time and time again - its all about assessing the risks.

I wasn't going at all fast when I took a heavy spill on black ice last February. I was wearing a helmet - I always do. It was not relevant in this particular spill as I didn't hit my head, but instead landed very heavily on my right shoulder. Plenty of soft tissue injury. Still getting therapy on it - another treatment just this morning in fact. I am back riding again, but let me tell you it is very easy to take a heavy fall at relatively low speed and on a quiet road. It was 5am when I wiped out, not a car in sight. I could just as easily have banged by head on the curb. As it was, I didn't miss it by much. Accidents happen. It is only smart to take precautions. I consider wearing a helmet to be not a lot different than bringing along a patch kit, spare tube and pump. You don't go out the door expecting to use them, but if circumstances arrive when you need the stuff, you want it, then and there.

slowsider

Hoopdriver wrote:

I wasn't going at all fast when I took a heavy spill on black ice last February. I was wearing a helmet - I always do. It was not relevant in this particular spill as I didn't hit my head, but instead landed very heavily on my right shoulder. Plenty of soft tissue injury. Still getting therapy on it - another treatment just this morning in fact. I am back riding again, but let me tell you it is very easy to take a heavy fall at relatively low speed and on a quiet road. It was 5am when I wiped out, not a car in sight. I could just as easily have banged by head on the curb. As it was, I didn't miss it by much. Accidents happen. It is only smart to take precautions. I consider wearing a helmet to be not a lot different than bringing along a patch kit, spare tube and pump. You don't go out the door expecting to use them, but if circumstances arrive when you need the stuff, you want it, then and there.

And are you wearing shoulder pads now ?

Only asking, cos Mrs slowsider is convinced there is a market for them, with an airbag-style inflatable device, since I dislocated my AC joint last year.

Hoopdriver

slowsider wrote:

Hoopdriver wrote:

I wasn't going at all fast when I took a heavy spill on black ice last February. I was wearing a helmet - I always do. It was not relevant in this particular spill as I didn't hit my head, but instead landed very heavily on my right shoulder. Plenty of soft tissue injury. Still getting therapy on it - another treatment just this morning in fact. I am back riding again, but let me tell you it is very easy to take a heavy fall at relatively low speed and on a quiet road. It was 5am when I wiped out, not a car in sight. I could just as easily have banged by head on the curb. As it was, I didn't miss it by much. Accidents happen. It is only smart to take precautions. I consider wearing a helmet to be not a lot different than bringing along a patch kit, spare tube and pump. You don't go out the door expecting to use them, but if circumstances arrive when you need the stuff, you want it, then and there.

And are you wearing shoulder pads now ?

Only asking, cos Mrs slowsider is convinced there is a market for them, with an airbag-style inflatable device, since I dislocated my AC joint last year.

I am assuming your question is made in jest...