Water Softeners

asquithea

About to move into a new place, where the local water is rather hard (Guildford, approx 275 ppm).

Previous owner had a water softener unit, which he took with him, leaving the plumbing behind. I thought I might follow his example, and buy one, as I've got a bit fed up with scale and crap soap lathering.

Anyone got an opinion on these things? Was thinking about something like this: http://www.aquastream-softeners.co.uk/w ... midi-meter

(Also looking into the coil or magnetic jobbies, but I can't see any evidence they work, so I'll be steering clear.)

confused@BR

I live in Northamptonshire and have installed units in the two houses I have occupied (will install another when I move). Very simple to fit (as you have the connections), use washing machine hoses not the difficult stuff the manufacturers often wish on you; with a direct benefit of soft water and an indirect benefit of longer washing machine/dishwasher lifespan.

asquithea

What model did you use? Any pros and cons?

knedlicky

We got a water softener 7-8 years ago; our hardness is about 315 ppm. It's placed in the line just after water enters the house, so before it divides to taps, heating, washing machine, etc. My wife thought it would be a good idea although I was more sceptical, especially when the plumber also explained it wouldn't really help with hot water (because, despite the salt, the scale comes back out of solution when the water temperature rises - not sure what temperature he said, about 40 deg C I think). Now we've had it a while, I'm still sceptical of its value.

The kettle and coffee machine still get as much scale, as does the shower unless you make a point of rinsing it with cold water after a hot shower.
It might help in not leaving stains when cleaning surfaces or mopping floors or rinsing washing-up (pots/pans) with cold or lukewarm water, and there should be no longer scale build-up in cold water pipes, but I doubt it makes much difference to scale build-up in hot water pipes, or to scale accumulating in central heating radiators during winter.

Also, the unit, although not large, still takes up more space than I'd like. Once installed, at least the running costs are low. It's a German make - Grünbeck, more expensive than what you're looking at, but maybe the specifications are higher.

At the time of making our choice, I too looked at the magnetic systems, but I felt they probably hardly worked at all.

confused@BR

Not a current model, they are much the same, work on the same principles, so get one the size that suits and is reasonably automatic. Plumbers usually hate them as they have nothing to do with them in the normal course of trading They do work but they don't work miracles.

Oh! by the way, you should not fit a water softener ahead of the tap you will be taking drinking water from. Kettles will continue to fur up, the water for drinking is not to be softened.

asquithea

Good to know. I think the plumbing already has a bypass to a drinking water tap.

Surprised to hear that they're not necessarily fully effective.Think I'll do it anyway, but set my expectations a bit lower.

pease

The water in Woking isnt too hard. Although saying that I have lived here all my life. If you are worried about scale a simple cartridge scale inhibitor would do the same thing

Giraffoto

They're a great idea if you live in hard water areas (like Cambridgeshire), Atlantis are a good brand. If you retro-fit one into a system that's run for several years on hard water the accumulated scale will start to come out of the pipes and block up your shower head a few times - just something to be aware of

mikeeye

knedlicky wrote:

My wife thought it would be a good idea although I was more sceptical, especially when the plumber also explained it wouldn't really help with hot water (because, despite the salt, the scale comes back out of solution when the water temperature rises - not sure what temperature he said, about 40 deg C I think). Now we've had it a while, I'm still sceptical of its value.

Are you sure about this? I have had a water softener for several years now and it seems to do the trick on hot and cold taps all around the house (except for the kitchen cold tap which is unsoftened).

The quarter turn ceramic tap in the kitchen scales up badly (our water is 19.00 Degrees Clark according to the supplier, who also categorize it as "hard"). The kettle furs up as expected and my coffee machine, which is plumbed in on the softened water doesn't. Our shower cubicle does show some water marks, but I'm pretty sure it'd be worse without the softener.

Nothing in this explanation of how a softener works makes me think they don't work on hot water. But if you have a source, I'm happy to learn.

knedlicky

MikeEye wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

the plumber also explained it wouldn't really help with hot water (because, despite the salt, the scale comes back out of solution when the water temperature rises - not sure what temperature he said, about 40 deg C I think).

Are you sure about this? I have had a water softener for several years now and it seems to do the trick on hot and cold taps all around the house (except for the kitchen cold tap which is unsoftened)

I had to do some research both about water behaviour, and about the water softener which I have, in order to answer. But at least I’ve now got a much better understanding of things myself.
It’s a pretty long answer and my apologies if some info is already known or obvious, but it clarifies much to me about my situation, and I hope it maybe helps others!

First of all, as confused@BR says above, drinking water should not be completely softened. This appears to be for health and hygenic reasons. Consequently, all water softener units installed before taps for drinking water (as is my case) mix softened water from the unit with unsoftened water before allowing water to go on from the unit. So I never have totally ‘soft water’, only water which is less hard than before - about 120 ppm hardness instead of 370 ppm (in my research I discovered my water is harder than I wrote in my first post).

(If a unit doesn’t serve drinking water taps, it still mixes softened and unsoftened water to achieve about 70 ppm hardness, because below 55 ppm hardness isn’t advised - it can cause excessive corrosion from within pipes)

Secondly, as mentioned in your link, water softening units have to have a regeneration period, meaning every now and again water flows through its softening part in the reverse direction. How often this happens, as mentioned in your link, can be controlled by various methods. In my case it seems to be based on water usage, and comes on every 25-30 hours. The regeneration lasts for about an hour and when this is happening, the unit no longer mixes softened water from the unit with unsoftened water. So if I turn a tap on during that hour, what comes out is 370 ppm hard water once more.

(A way around this, to always have softened water, like stated in your link, is to have a double unit, so when one unit needs to regenerate, then the other unit takes over. But of course this both costs more money and occupies more space)

Thirdly, scale is deposited by all water, though for water up to 120 ppm hardness, especially when no hotter than 60 deg C, deposits are so negligible that they aren’t quickly noticed.
Scale deposits increase drastically when water is heated above 60 deg C, especially when the water has more than 120 ppm hardness.

So in my case, it can be I’m sometimes showering in 370 ppm hard water, or taking water from the drinking water taps with that hardness. Even when I draw off 120 ppm hard water but then boil it in the kettle or a pan on the stove, it’s likely I’ll still get scale, if not as much as with 370 ppm hard water.

My original post may have been inaccurate in its logic and info, but it seems having a water softerner doesn't free one totally from the problems of scale.

asquithea

Awesome post - thanks. I'll find out a bit more about the regeneration pattern for the unit I'm interested in.

mikeeye

Thanks for the reply knedlicky.

According to this site, my 19 Degrees Clark equates to 271ppm so my water is softer than yours. The softener I have is metered, and runs its recharge cycles in the wee small hours, so I'm not sure how often it occurs, but I would be surprised if it's daily as yours seems to be. I wonder if you're doubt about the effectiveness of yours is that it's recharging so often that it's happening at times when water is being used - I think it's pretty rare for us to draw any water when the machine is performing a recharge.

I'm also very doubtful that my softener blends softened and un-softened water which may also improve things.

Anyway, for the OP, my softener is from EMWC, but I've had it 11 years now so it's not a current model.

Thanks again for your detailed response knedlicky.