Downtube Shifters rock

mr_eddy

Ok so I have in my some what limited cycling ownership journey been fortunate enough to own several bikes (I still have 3 bikes but that is another story). I have owned MTB, Road, Fixie's and hybrids. I have had Gripshift, Thumbshift, rapidfire, STI and dowtube shifters (Shimano, SRAM and Campy).

Despite all the above when the sun is shining and I have a few hours spare at the weekend I invariably go for the Downtube equipped bike, here are my 5 reasons why:

1. Pure simplicity, So easy to set up and use. I know there will be no pre/post ride tweaking required.

2. Fine adjustment, I have a friction tube shifter for the front mech and as such I can eliminate front mech chain rub with ease, no tools required !

3. Clean looks, Unless you have SRAM/Campy or high end Shimano you often see bikes with cables hanging out all over the place, its looks naff. Having the brakes do just the braking means the feel is so much better, because the levers do also move side to side they don't wobble around or rattle either.

4. Improves form, in my opinion if you are constantly flicking through gears with your hands on STI levers then you never learn to get stuck in and power up that hill or past that commuter, with DT shifters where you can't always safely take your right hand off the bars means you just have to put the power down, reminds me of when I ride my fixie. Its a more direct approach and more rewarding.

5. Cheap, If you do need to replace a shifter or cable (rare) then its so much cheaper than the equivalent STI part. You only have to look on eBay and you can get a pair of Dura Ace DT shifters and some nice brake levers for the price of one Dura Ace brifter.

As a bonus you also have the advantage on most index Shimano DT shifters to switch to friction shifting if you wish, handy for fine tuning or if you want to switch to a new cassette and have not had chance to sort the indexing out. Can't do that with STI levers.

Many say that its dangerous taking your hand of the bars but its no worse than taking your hand off to grab a water bottle etc, if you need both hands then you just learn to put in more power.

I appreciate STI levers have there place, when split seconds count on race day or if you are in heavy traffic and need to have hands on the bar at all times then it makes sense but for everything else I cannot fault DT shifters.

Anyway anyone else got any reasons to like/dislike DT shifters ?

Pross

Agreed. I still use my old 7 speed steel bike in winter which has downtube shifters. To give myself some extra gears I switched the 7 speed cassette for a 10 speed with the smallest sprocket removed. Originally I was running this in friction mode but when the 20 year old levers finally broke I replaced them with Dura Ace 10 speed downtube shifters which allowed me to index the gears again. The quality of gear change is superb, far more crisp than my Tiagra STI and I haven't had to adjust it at all since I set it up and the start of the winter whereas I am constantly tweaking the barrel adjusted on the STI.

The downsides are that the brake lever hoods don't provide such a solid platform for your hands as the combined STI hoods do and that changing gear is less convenient on DT shifters, especially if you are racing or when you hit that sudden unexpected hill.

Monkeypump

I don't dislike DT shifters, just like I didn't dislike VHS tapes at the time. However, we now have a better solution.

Aside from (perhaps) point 4, most of your comments can be used to defend your preference but don't really stand up to scrutiny as arguments against STIs. I think saying STIs 'have their place' is a massive understatement. Rather, DT shifters have their place - on vintage frames ridden by luddites

I enjoy using my XT thumbies on an old mountain bike. They work as well as they did new, but I suspect it's mostly nostalgia that brings a smile to my face.

And it might just be me, but my current Ultegra set up doesn't need 'constant tweaking' - it's well maintained and it just works.

drlodge

I moved from DT shifters last year on my old bike, changed shifters to Shimano 2300. It was an absolute joy to be able to easily change gear in an instant. Now with the Campag 11s setup on the Rourke, its even better since the ratios are so close, one click and a fine adjustment later, you're in the perfect gear.

I take your points above, but when doing long rides, I really like being able to have the precise gear I need.

With modern shifters, its also possible to change gear when riding out of the saddle, something that's not possible with DT shifters.

DT shifters - RIP I'd say.

peat

Monkeypump wrote:

I
..........your comments.......... don't really stand up to scrutiny as arguments against STIs. I think saying STIs 'have their place' is a massive understatement.

Don't be a fool. Cover your tool.

estampida

I still have DX thumbies on one of my bikes, those or the xt (alloy clamp) were the best gear shifters ever made all the benefits of sti and friction adjustment when the going got tough

its a pity that they don't make a 9 speed version, probably down to the fact that the unit was very easy to strip and clean and repair

but I have considered these before, can get them online

http://www.paulcomp.com/thumbies.html

bompington

I have very limited experience of integrated shifters (a few weeks on an ill-fated Boardman), and downtube shifters are everyday life for me.
Mostly it doesn't bother me, but there a few disadvantages:
- they don't seem to last very long: about a year on my experience - the downtube of a bike in scottish winters, and a lot of the summers, is a pretty hostile environment. And the only Shimano compatible 9-speed shifters I can get that work are Dura Ace: £50 is a lot to pay when one of the levers has gone - I'm sorry but that doesn't seem cheap to me.
- it is simply harder, less safe and more awkward to change gear - so you spend more time in the wrong one. Yes, you can put up with it, but why? I spend way more time than I should in 1st gear in the big ring, purely because it's a faff to change the front.
- it is more or less impossible to change gear while out of the saddle, or braking. Comparisons to getting a water bottle are pointless - I don't reach for the water bottle when braking from 50 to standstill at the bottom of Jock's Brae on my commute home, but I would sure like to be able to pull away in something less than a 126" gear.

I'm afraid most of your reasons are, as mentioned above, just classic Luddism. Take it from someone who knows.

rolf_f

drlodge wrote:

With modern shifters, its also possible to change gear when riding out of the saddle, something that's not possible with DT shifters.

One of the very few downsides to DT shifters - well spotted.

I run both modern 10 speed and 6 and 7 speed friction shift DT shifters (OP has slightly got it wrong by using indexing on the rear - this is a negative).

Anyway, I love them both. To say that the STi is inferior to the DT shifter is as laughable as saying the STi shifter is superior to the DT shifter. They are different things with different advantages. Ultimately, the connection you get with the gears on friction DT, minimal cost (second hand replacements cost buttons and last years) the minimal maintenance required (how I snigger at those suffering the misery of single speed bikes because they think they are gaining huge savings in maintenance time!), the simplicity (once you've got your limit screws adjusted correctly, that's it - nothing left to do. Ever. Until the cable breaks and you have to thread a new one through), repairability, lightness (which admittedly goes to offsetting the frame weight ) are all real benefits over STi shifters.

When I switch from one to the other system, I tend to appreciate each time the benefits of the different systems but I can never decide which is actually better.

dynamicbrick

I have downtube shifters on the Peugeot, indexed rear and friction front, and Tiagra on the Cube.

There is something deeply satisfying about that physical connection betwixt metal lever and the clanking and clattering going on behind you; you know you've changed gear. However, you can't easily change gear when descending on the brakes, and if you're up out of the saddle on a climb, forget it.

That said, DT shifters force you to be a better rider - you have to plan ahead and think more carefully about cadence or ratio.. rather than just thinking 'different gear' and twitching a finger when required. In many ways it's like driving an old crash box lorry, it's an art form to do it right.

They also make for a far more elegant set of brake levers, and less cables pointing in all directions;


On balance though, I'd take the Tiagra every time... because despite the ugly great hoods and cables everywhere, it's not a royal pain in the arse when I run out of steam halfway up a hill

drlodge

dynamicbrick wrote:

Your bars look as thought they've swivelled in the stem, and are now pointing downwards. Or have you set them up like this for some reason?

dynamicbrick

drlodge wrote:

dynamicbrick wrote:

Your bars look as thought they've swivelled in the stem, and are now pointing downwards. Or have you set them up like this for some reason?

I'd had the thing a couple of days when I took that photo - I think they're at a different angle now... probably set to get the hoods flat (which is comfy for me as I have long arms). There's also a bit of photo angle going on I think.

Nonetheless, the bars are a very funny shape with the hoods on a fixed angle (i.e. due to the flat part of the bar they bolt to, you can't move them as you can on the Pug) so the only adjustment to hood position is by swivelling the whole bar.

thegreatdivide

bompington wrote:

I don't reach for the water bottle when braking from 50 to standstill at the bottom of Jock's Brae on my commute home

This will have gone over 99.99% of BR heads - but I know what you mean ;-)

Daz555

They look nice on a bike of the right age. That's it though. Nothing else postive to say about them.

AchillesLeftKnee

mr_eddy wrote:

Anyway anyone else got any reasons to like/dislike DT shifters ?

The only time I personally find myself thinking "Hmm, friction would beat indexed at this point" is in on the MTB in mega-muddy conditions when the indexing can, sometimes, let itself down. Other than that, nah, I'll stick with the ability to shift whilst out the saddle, and to accelerate smoothly and rapidly whilst seated whilst retaining full control of the bike (the latter making town riding in traffic so, so much easier!).

ballysmate

When i was a kid, DT were what people had. Two years ago, someone gave me an old bike and I started cycling again after I suppose 35 years. It had DT and I thought nothing of it. Some months later I took the plunge and brought a new bike. The difference was INCREDIBLE.
Back in the day, I used to like the RS2000 Escort. But it was of its day, and I would no more consider buying one now than going back to DT shifters.

Giraffoto

DT were perfectly fine, but I've gotten used to always having the shifters under my fingers and I'd probably find it a faff now. There's a disadvantage - STI shifters make you lazy. Other than that they're great, and allow you to do "big ring to small ring, drop two cogs" fast enough to not lose momentum while climbing (which I never managed on 2x6 with DT shifters)

fossyant

Both my road bikes have DT shifters, but that's the era they are from. Dura Ace on one, Ultegra the other. I do find though, be it that you do have to think a bit more about when you are changing gear, that DT shifters make for a much crisper shift. It's either half the folk I ride with can't set gears up, but the crunching and clunking you get with STI !

Pross

bompington wrote:

- they don't seem to last very long: about a year on my experience - the downtube of a bike in scottish winters, and a lot of the summers, is a pretty hostile environment. And the only Shimano compatible 9-speed shifters I can get that work are Dura Ace: £50 is a lot to pay when one of the levers has gone - I'm sorry but that doesn't seem cheap to me.

About a year for a set of downtube shifters? I've just taken my 21 year old Ultegra shifters off and the bike spent 16 of those years in leaky garden sheds and one (harsh) winter under a plastic sheet in the back garden. The front shifter is still fine. IMHO they are far less delicate than a STI lever which is why I like them on my winter bike. £50 for a Dura Ace shifter isn't cheap but it's better than £250 for a 105 STI lever which is also more prone to crash damage.

random man

I love riding my 1990 Mercian with DT shifters, skinny framed steel bikes demand DT shifters, but I much prefer my Kuota Kharma with 105 STis, everything about it is so much smoother than the Mercian.
I'd rather ride the Mercian than my Merida aly frame with Sora shifters, the Mercian is a much more comfortable ride and the DT shifters give a cleaner change than Sora.

Hoopdriver

Pross wrote:

bompington wrote:

- they don't seem to last very long: about a year on my experience - the downtube of a bike in scottish winters, and a lot of the summers, is a pretty hostile environment. And the only Shimano compatible 9-speed shifters I can get that work are Dura Ace: £50 is a lot to pay when one of the levers has gone - I'm sorry but that doesn't seem cheap to me.

About a year for a set of downtube shifters? I've just taken my 21 year old Ultegra shifters off and the bike spent 16 of those years in leaky garden sheds and one (harsh) winter under a plastic sheet in the back garden. The front shifter is still fine. IMHO they are far less delicate than a STI lever which is why I like them on my winter bike. £50 for a Dura Ace shifter isn't cheap but it's better than £250 for a 105 STI lever which is also more prone to crash damage.

I agree. I'd marvelled at that statement too. I have never worn out a pair of DT shifters or had them erde away. I have a bike from the late 70s with the original downtube shifters

thiscocks

I have campagnolo veloce dt shifters on my commuter. Indexed rear mech lever (for 8 speed cassette) and friction front. Compared to the equivalent campag bar shifters the rear mech is more accurate and needs absolutely no adjusting once set up. Plus it has a very nice mechanical click to it and they look v nice.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Campagnolo-Veloc ... ~60_35.JPG

For those saying they are a pain to use I assume you all drive cars with flappy paddles

Bobbinogs

Ermm, I like DT shifters... and I like STI shifters. I like riding bikes and I like the fact that some come with different characters. One bike I have is all Shimano, one is all Campag and one is a Heinz 57 (Campag, Shimano and Suntour) and I don't give a monkey's

pliptrot

Downtube shifters are neither expensive nor much of a platform for adding marketing gimmicks like electronic shifting, blah blah blah, which makes them unappealing to manufacturers and -given the adage about a fool and his money- many cyclists, and of course they draw the ire of the morons who write the cycling press. In the early nineties Robert Millar, Marco Pantani and many others chose not to use STIs or Ergo levers. Ultimately, manufacturer pressure changed their minds, I suppose.

nweststeyn

thegreatdivide wrote:

bompington wrote:

I don't reach for the water bottle when braking from 50 to standstill at the bottom of Jock's Brae on my commute home

This will have gone over 99.99% of BR heads - but I know what you mean ;-)

Got caught in a hail shower into 25mph headwinds going UP Jocks Brae at the weekend.

Miserable. I hate that road.

rolfrae

I recently hopped back aboard my old 90s Peugeot with downtube shifters. I liked that I could use the friction setting to compensate for the gears being out of adjustment. However, I didn't like having to take my hands off the bars to change gears. I rode a route with loads of out of the saddle steep climbs and I had to make sure I was in the correct gear before the climb started. The fingers on my right hand were instinctively twitching at the brake lever trying to change gear!

Downtube shifters are great for their reassuring simplicity, but STI is so much easier/safer to use.

rolf_f

random man wrote:

I love riding my 1990 Mercian with DT shifters, skinny framed steel bikes demand DT shifters, but I much prefer my Kuota Kharma with 105 STis, everything about it is so much smoother than the Mercian.
I'd rather ride the Mercian than my Merida aly frame with Sora shifters, the Mercian is a much more comfortable ride and the DT shifters give a cleaner change than Sora.

You need to learn how to service your bikes properly. There should be nothing smoother about the Kharma than the Mercian. Infact, the reverse. I've just rebuilt an old Raleigh Tourer - it is like riding a silk bike on silk tyres on a silk road compared to my carbon bikes. Everything is as smooth as butter.

rolfrae wrote:

I recently hopped back aboard my old 90s Peugeot with downtube shifters. I liked that I could use the friction setting to compensate for the gears being out of adjustment. However, I didn't like having to take my hands off the bars to change gears. I rode a route with loads of out of the saddle steep climbs and I had to make sure I was in the correct gear before the climb started. The fingers on my right hand were instinctively twitching at the brake lever trying to change gear!.

Sounds like you are out of practice. There is absolutely no need to be sure you are in the correct gear at the start of the climb other than to be in the correct chainring if the climb is very steep. As for taking hands off the bars to change gear - it just becomes second nature. People are only really conscious of change (rather than absolutes - eg, if you change from a heavier bike to a slightly lighter bike, you notice it in the first instance but after a few minutes riding, the experience will seem much as it was before) which is why upgrading is largely an endless and pointless task though the shopping can be fun!

bigjim

Just back from a 25 miler on my 90s Raleigh Royal with DT shifters. I've not ridden it for 6 months. It felt so comfortable from the off and the gearchanges were just so smooth and quiet I'd forgotten how good DTs are. I'm now seriously considering switching my steel bikes back to DTs.
There is no problem hill climbing with DTs unless you are out of the saddle and the best way to tackle IMO long steep hills is to sit and pedal using your gears. How long do you stand up for anyway, before sitting back down?
I did a two week tour in France last year happily using DT levers on the Royal. They are good for touring as less likely to be damaged in handling and rarely cause any problems. Easier to attach bar bag as well.

rhext

I used to think back wistfully about being able to use DT shifters to eliminate chain rub. Then I found out that an occasionally irritating tendency to 'click' without changing gear on my new 105 shifters was actually a trim adjustment that eliminated chain rub when properly set up (which it was). And then I realised that the shifters on my old commuter bike had a similar function (how I could have been using it for 6 years without working out what it was for escapes me, but there you go). For me, that eliminated the one remaining advantage that DT shifters had over modern STIs and I won't be looking back again.

rolf_f

bigjim wrote:

Just back from a 25 miler on my 90s Raleigh Royal with DT shifters. I've not ridden it for 6 months. It felt so comfortable from the off and the gearchanges were just so smooth and quiet I'd forgotten how good DTs are. I'm now seriously considering switching my steel bikes back to DTs.
There is no problem hill climbing with DTs unless you are out of the saddle and the best way to tackle IMO long steep hills is to sit and pedal using your gears. How long do you stand up for anyway, before sitting back down?
I did a two week tour in France last year happily using DT levers on the Royal. They are good for touring as less likely to be damaged in handling and rarely cause any problems. Easier to attach bar bag as well.

And your picture reminds me of the obvious fact that if you are riding a heavily laden tourer, you won't be climbing out of the saddle for reasons other than gear shift limitations!

Nice Royal BTW. I've just bought a 1987 Randonneur - I like it!

bigjim

I thought I was going pretty light. I'm one of those riders that does spend a lot of time out of the saddle. Even loaded. Don't know why as it's not that efficient but I'm not a natural spinner.
I have to force myself to stay seated. I like dancing on the pedals but you can't do that for long on some hills so it's easy enough to time the gearchanges. I don't see STI's as particularly more efficient. They both have there good and bad points IMO.
The grey paint on the headstock on my Royal is marked and it bugs me all the time. I can't figure out how to touch it up or spray it. I bought the frame and forks for £50 posted and built it up from there. Beautiful bike to ride. Not too heavy for a tourer. 531ST throughout. 12kg.

Monty Dog

I'm off to ride the Retroronde on my 1983 Gios next weekend. Included is a kermis around the centre of Oudenaard on the saturday night - I think I'll just be leaving it in one gear for the duration and a couple of Hoegaardens for courage! Haven't raced with DT shifters for about 20 years...