So what's the deal with tubs these days?

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

geetee1972 wrote:

I've been away so am late coming back to the thread and all the responses. Thanks for all the comments and insights. I think I can see the way through the pros and cons.

One other question, how many people running tubs actually mend their own punctures (as opposed to sending them off to someone else to do it)?

I have fixed a few... nothing I would be proud of, but they do work, except the base tape is not as well glued as it was before, but I suspect even the man in Doncaster cannot glue it back like Vittoria did

He lives between Barnsley and Rotherham - and he's very good. I've had tubs back from him, and apart from the marks he's made to highlight the repair area, you wouldn't know he's touched them.

mike6

Never ridden a tub so cant comment on comfort etc, but if they are that superior why are so many pro teams now riding clinchers?
I read a couple of years ago that the ratio, clincher to tub, was about 50-50. That was then, have the pro teams gone back to tubs since then?

bigpikle

I havent seen anything about pro teams riding clinchers except for the famous Tony Martin TT victory using a special new Conti TT clincher that was supposed to have less rolling resistance than the best tubs.

I've ridden a set of borrowed tub wheels for a few rides and loved them. They feel faster although times on the routes didnt suggest they actually were. I really liked them and will build a set some time soon.

The downer is the p* issue of course but I also believe they do suffer less than many clinchers if you choose sensible rubber. I have a good friend that only rides tubs outside of winter and very rarely suffers issues. He carries a spare pre-taped tub and can put it on a rim quicker than changing a tube. They are bulkier to carry though and there is the question of carrying 1 or 2 on longer rides, but I think that for the right kind of rides they are a very useable option. The cost of 2 tubs and a spare means a high cost of entry but as a bit of a luxury choice why not?

crumbschief

When i saw the thread title i wondered if it was going to be either about why your rather portly friend had stopped talking to you or it was going to be a nostalgic Miami Vice question,oh well.

Anyway not tried tubs myself but i fancy giving it a go in the future,

rereading that line i wonder if Sonny ever thought that as well.

solosuperia

I think a point is being lost here with regard to puntures in tubs.....
You use a non-setting glue, rip the punctured one off the rim, replace with a spare carried under your saddle with a quick release strap. CO2 cylinder ........... fold puntured tub up into back pocket of jersey.
Job done almost done.
Sitting at home, cup of tea in one hand, repair puncture at a leisurely pace.
Job done now.
Now the big question SILK or COTTON??????

Monty Dog

I still use tubs for racing, particularly CX where they're the only way to reliably run low pressures - you can run clinchers or tubeless at less than 2 bar without risk of burping / impact punctures.
Another reason tubs remain popular is that they are cheaper, lighter and more robust on carbon wheels - you can run flat on punctured tub and not risk damaging the rim - you'll crash/trash an all-carbon clincher rim doing the same.
That said, if you're not racing, and looking for something comfortable with low rolling resistance then tubeless is the future. Lack of an inner tube means rolling resistance is significantly reduced too (in response to Ugo's question) and sealants mean that only the most severe punctures are a problem. I have tubeless 29er and CX wheels - the comparative rolling resistance is remarkable, plus I've only had one puncture I've been aware of on the MTB in 10 months.

gbr236

It may have been a very rash decision
Just bought a set of ambrosia nemesis on DT hubs.
Continental sprinter gatorskin tubs fitted.
Ive bought a new 'spare' tub.

Now out on a ride do I carry a can of repair spray (I presume they are all the same)
What do i need to do to the new tub if i am going to carry it as well?

Just now need to make the jump to actually use them.....

bernithebiker

gbr236 wrote:

It may have been a very rash decision
Just bought a set of ambrosia nemesis on DT hubs.
Continental sprinter gatorskin tubs fitted.
Ive bought a new 'spare' tub.

Now out on a ride do I carry a can of repair spray (I presume they are all the same)
What do i need to do to the new tub if i am going to carry it as well?

Just now need to make the jump to actually use them.....

I carry a can of Dectathlon's puncture sealant - it works well, it's small, and it was voted best on test by a French magazine.

Just give the new (spare) tub a coat of glue and leave to dry.

gbr236

Does it have to be 'streched' or anything?

pilot_pete

gbr236 wrote:

Does it have to be 'streched' or anything?

Yes, but on a rim (unglued) for a week or so. Don't put one end under your foot and pull up against it whatever you do!

If it is pre-stretched it will make it slightly easier to put on the rim when out on the road if you need to replace a punctured tub.

As for tub puncture repairs, they can't be that hard as I was fixing my own at the age of 14 without a proper kit! Simply used my mums sewing kit with some cat gut type twine to sew back up and glue to stick the tape back on! Seemed to work alright....

PP

bigpikle

I thought that if you used the sealant to repair a puncture out on the road then it pretty much made the tub impossible to repair?

lotus49

I have been following this thread with interest, particularly after the early comments about changing tyres not being a big deal compared to clinchers.

As the thread has gone on though, that claim is looking more and more divorced from reality. Apart from the fact that punctures are hard enough to repair that the tyres need to be sent off to be mended, there is the time taken to remove the old glue, put the new glue on, stick the tyre on (probably not straight because that also appears to be difficult) I now learn that tubs need to be pre-stretched (carefully) before you can get the blighter on the wheel easily.

If I ever had any doubt as to whether it might be worthwhile switching to tubs, this thread has completely dispelled them. Tubs would have to be able to cycle up the hills for me before I would think that the massive hassle of using them would be even remotely worth it.

As I said earlier, if tubs are your bag, then good luck to you, but I it is now abundantly clear why hardly anyone uses them outside competition.

bernithebiker

lotus49 wrote:

I have been following this thread with interest, particularly after the early comments about changing tyres not being a big deal compared to clinchers.

As the thread has gone on though, that claim is looking more and more divorced from reality. Apart from the fact that punctures are hard enough to repair that the tyres need to be sent off to be mended, there is the time taken to remove the old glue, put the new glue on, stick the tyre on (probably not straight because that also appears to be difficult) I now learn that tubs need to be pre-stretched (carefully) before you can get the blighter on the wheel easily.

If I ever had any doubt as to whether it might be worthwhile switching to tubs, this thread has completely dispelled them. Tubs would have to be able to cycle up the hills for me before I would think that the massive hassle of using them would be even remotely worth it.

As I said earlier, if tubs are your bag, then good luck to you, but I it is now abundantly clear why hardly anyone uses them outside competition.

Why not try riding on a pair, and then tell us what you think?

thegreatdivide

lotus49 wrote:

I have been following this thread with interest, particularly after the early comments about changing tyres not being a big deal compared to clinchers.

As the thread has gone on though, that claim is looking more and more divorced from reality. Apart from the fact that punctures are hard enough to repair that the tyres need to be sent off to be mended, there is the time taken to remove the old glue, put the new glue on, stick the tyre on (probably not straight because that also appears to be difficult) I now learn that tubs need to be pre-stretched (carefully) before you can get the blighter on the wheel easily.

If I ever had any doubt as to whether it might be worthwhile switching to tubs, this thread has completely dispelled them. Tubs would have to be able to cycle up the hills for me before I would think that the massive hassle of using them would be even remotely worth it.

As I said earlier, if tubs are your bag, then good luck to you, but I it is now abundantly clear why hardly anyone uses them outside competition.

You already stated they weren’t for you so why post again?

I just rode the Etape Caledonia on mine and they did an exemplary job. So feckin smooth! I’m now looking at a pair of 1000g FFWD f2r tubs for the Alps…

markos1963

I can't see much difference in the repairability of tubs or clinchers. What happens on a clincher ride? You go out, get a flat, have a wrestling match with the tube and tyre, go home and spend the evening trying to find the hole and repair it. Tub ride, go out, get a flat(rare) quickly rip off tyre, replace with spare, go home and either spend half an hour repairing(that's how long the last one took me) or just bag it up for posting to repairer.

lotus49

thegreatdivide wrote:

You already stated they weren’t for you so why post again?

I just rode the Etape Caledonia on mine and they did an exemplary job. So feckin smooth! I’m now looking at a pair of 1000g FFWD f2r tubs for the Alps…

To reiterate my point based on additional information that I didn't have when I posted the first time (ie that they need stretching).

You already said you liked your tubs, why did you post again?

bernithebiker

lotus49 wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

You already stated they weren’t for you so why post again?

I just rode the Etape Caledonia on mine and they did an exemplary job. So feckin smooth! I’m now looking at a pair of 1000g FFWD f2r tubs for the Alps…

To reiterate my point based on additional information that I didn't have when I posted the first time (ie that they need stretching).

You already said you liked your tubs, why did you post again?

I think it's hard to form an opinion on the perceived 'difficulties' of tubs, when you've never actually ridden them to see if the (small) extra hassle is worth it or not.

ugo.santalucia

lotus49 wrote:

I have been following this thread with interest, particularly after the early comments about changing tyres not being a big deal compared to clinchers.

As the thread has gone on though, that claim is looking more and more divorced from reality. Apart from the fact that punctures are hard enough to repair that the tyres need to be sent off to be mended, there is the time taken to remove the old glue, put the new glue on, stick the tyre on (probably not straight because that also appears to be difficult) I now learn that tubs need to be pre-stretched (carefully) before you can get the blighter on the wheel easily.

If I ever had any doubt as to whether it might be worthwhile switching to tubs, this thread has completely dispelled them. Tubs would have to be able to cycle up the hills for me before I would think that the massive hassle of using them would be even remotely worth it.

As I said earlier, if tubs are your bag, then good luck to you, but I it is now abundantly clear why hardly anyone uses them outside competition.

They are clearly not for you... but if you haven't tried them, I would not try to put other people off them based on rumours... advice should be first hand, anyone can use google and find the usual horror stories about badly glued tubs and irreparable punctures...

markos1963

What Ugo says, try them then comment. If it's not for you then all well and good.

I apply the N+1 rule to tyres anyway. I get a bike to go with each tyre application I need.

TT bike- tubs
Club/ fast summer bike- Lightweight clinchers
Commuter bike- puncture proof tourers
Winter fixed bike- gatorskins

lotus49

ugo.santalucia wrote:

They are clearly not for you... but if you haven't tried them, I would not try to put other people off them based on rumours... advice should be first hand, anyone can use google and find the usual horror stories about badly glued tubs and irreparable punctures...

Fair comment Ugo. I very much respect your knowledge and I have seen that you have been one of the most well-informed and helpful contributors to this forum.

It was not my intention to put anyone off. I was merely setting out the conclusions I had drawn from the discussion. Unfortunately, I shan't have the opportunity to try tubs for myself unless I pay for them - something I am very unlikely to do for the reasons I have outlined above, but I shall refrain from making further comment unless I do get that chance.

ugo.santalucia

Over the years I have tried many tyres and although some clinchers are better than others, when you ride a quality tubular, the rest becomes much of a muchness...
These days I only use overengineered clinchers for practicality, indestructible touring tyres and the likes for commuting and winter riding... and tubulars for the good days and the epic rides.
The appeal of a set of Conti Gatorskin or GP 4000 is equal to zero for me... they are just another set of numb tyres with no soul.

You just have to pinch a tubular with your fingers, the way it resonates, the vibrations, the lively feedback it gives... it is another world, if it faster or not, frankly I don't care... for me it's just like going back to a vynil record on a quality stereo system, as opposed to an MP3 plugged into your ears that are clinchers

Too much poetry? Maybe, but there is practicality and there is soul and both have their place

thegreatdivide

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Over the years I have tried many tyres and although some clinchers are better than others, when you ride a quality tubular, the rest becomes much of a muchness...
These days I only use overengineered clinchers for practicality, indestructible touring tyres and the likes for commuting and winter riding... and tubulars for the good days and the epic rides.
The appeal of a set of Conti Gatorskin or GP 4000 is equal to zero for me... they are just another set of numb tyres with no soul.

You just have to pinch a tubular with your fingers, the way it resonates, the vibrations, the lively feedback it gives... it is another world, if it faster or not, frankly I don't care... for me it's just like going back to a vynil record on a quality stereo system, as opposed to an MP3 plugged into your ears that are clinchers

Too much poetry? Maybe, but there is practicality and there is soul and both have their place

Ha! I glue my tubs in the spare room surrounded by quite an extensive record collection

andy_wrx

I started running tubs on my TT wheels simply because I got a far better price on secondhand tubular aero wheels than clinchers.
- presumably they are cheaper because of a lower demand on the secondhand market due to all the horror opinions of tubs Lotus49 examples above.

Initially it was definitely offputting : how to put them on ? glue or tape ? if glue, how many coats ? prestretch ?
Lots of websites with contradictory warnings made it all seem so complicated
- it actually turned-out to be relatively easy.

Ran for over two years without p*nct*re - 10's, 25's, 50's, riding-out to the club 10's
I carried an aerosol of sealant but never needed it.
It was taped under the saddle and I took it off over this last Winter to re-do the tape : only to find it had rubbed against the saddle rails, punctured the can, all set solid inside - dunno how long I'd been carrying it like that !

Finally got a pinch flat in a pothole (tubs don't pinch ? mine did) riding-out to the club 10 last week.
As was only just-over half a mile after setting-out from home, I rode back on the flat and got my spare wheels.

Again much reading-around as to how to fix the tub, again looked horribly complicated from various websites.
£16 for Pete Burgin to fix it, plus postage - but worth it for a part-worn 2½-year-old Conti Podium ?
I thought I'd have a go at fixing it myself
- turned-out not to be hard at all : identifying where the hiss was inside the casing and finding the hole was probably the most difficult part, then picking a section of the base tape off and opening a bit of the stitching, fixing the innertube was exactly the same as patching a hole in a clincher innertube, then restitching was easy enough (I'm used to darning-up holes in my gloves and overshoes as well), glueing the basetape back and then glueing it back on the wheel.

So yes, a lot more faff than just changing an innertube, but nothing like so complicated as the web indicates.
It does take time, as you need to do it in stages and wait overnight for glue to dry or tyres to stretch, etc.
It's not quite zen, but there's definitely a feeling of satisfaction to doing it : you feel very in-touch with the whole process, artisan-style.

The ride is good, it feels pretty fast, although I'd have to try the clincher versions of my wheels to fully compare.

And whilst getting a p*nct*re is something I really don't want, these are my TT wheels and a p*nct*re in either clinchers or tubs would mean the end of my timed ride, unless it was my once-a-year 100 when I'd fix and carry on
- and actually, until last week, I felt they were rather more p*nct*re-resistant than fast clinchers, so better-suited to riding-out to the club 10's, or doing 25's & 50's on rough Cheshire courses.

pashda

I have both clinchers and tubs. My TT bike came with carbon wheels and tubs so I had to learn how to glue the tyres (shop refused for insurance reasons which I found a bit odd) and found it to be easy enough but it took a couple of days in total due to waiting for the glue to "go-off". My LBS says the tubs I have are very average and a bit heavy compared to race tubs but they still feel better to ride on than the clinchers I have tried (prorace 3, ultremo ZX recently). I am looking for a wheel upgrade for the road bike and will prob go for tubs. Just my opinion and I think the best thing is see if you can borrow a set and try them out.

rolf_f

markos1963 wrote:

I can't see much difference in the repairability of tubs or clinchers. What happens on a clincher ride? You go out, get a flat, have a wrestling match with the tube and tyre, go home and spend the evening trying to find the hole and repair it. Tub ride, go out, get a flat(rare) quickly rip off tyre, replace with spare, go home and either spend half an hour repairing(that's how long the last one took me) or just bag it up for posting to repairer.

Personally, I think tubs are probably worth trying and hopefully I will one day. But you have to be fair! What happens on a clincher ride? You go out, you get a flat (rare), don't have a wrestling match with the tube and tyre but swap the tube quickly, go home and spend five minutes over a cup of tea repairing it. Unless you are very ham fisted it is clearly a quicker process overall than dealing with the tub. So be honest, clinchers clearly have their drawbacks over tubs but the speediness of the puncture repair process doesn't seem to be one of them!

Still, it's been fun putting a Veloflex Master clincher onto a campag Neutron....... Got the other to do tonight!

ugo.santalucia

Rolf F wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

I can't see much difference in the repairability of tubs or clinchers. What happens on a clincher ride? You go out, get a flat, have a wrestling match with the tube and tyre, go home and spend the evening trying to find the hole and repair it. Tub ride, go out, get a flat(rare) quickly rip off tyre, replace with spare, go home and either spend half an hour repairing(that's how long the last one took me) or just bag it up for posting to repairer.

Personally, I think tubs are probably worth trying and hopefully I will one day. But you have to be fair! What happens on a clincher ride? You go out, you get a flat (rare), don't have a wrestling match with the tube and tyre but swap the tube quickly, go home and spend five minutes over a cup of tea repairing it. Unless you are very ham fisted it is clearly a quicker process overall than dealing with the tub. So be honest, clinchers clearly have their drawbacks over tubs but the speediness of the puncture repair process doesn't seem to be one of them!

Tub repairing aside, I don't see how you can comment on how easy/quick it is to fix the problem on the road if you haven't tried... problem with the topic is that a lot of people have very strong opinions based on internet rumours...

rolf_f

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

I can't see much difference in the repairability of tubs or clinchers. What happens on a clincher ride? You go out, get a flat, have a wrestling match with the tube and tyre, go home and spend the evening trying to find the hole and repair it. Tub ride, go out, get a flat(rare) quickly rip off tyre, replace with spare, go home and either spend half an hour repairing(that's how long the last one took me) or just bag it up for posting to repairer.

Personally, I think tubs are probably worth trying and hopefully I will one day. But you have to be fair! What happens on a clincher ride? You go out, you get a flat (rare), don't have a wrestling match with the tube and tyre but swap the tube quickly, go home and spend five minutes over a cup of tea repairing it. Unless you are very ham fisted it is clearly a quicker process overall than dealing with the tub. So be honest, clinchers clearly have their drawbacks over tubs but the speediness of the puncture repair process doesn't seem to be one of them!

Tub repairing aside, I don't see how you can comment on how easy/quick it is to fix the problem on the road if you haven't tried... problem with the topic is that a lot of people have very strong opinions based on internet rumours...

I'm not commenting on anything I haven't tried - if you read what I said I was simply saying that implying that there is something terribly difficult and time consuming about fixing clincher punctures is a bit disingenuous - my only assumption about tubs is based on what users themselves have been saying ie fixing tubs doesn't seem to be as quick as fixing a punctured inner tube but neither is it as difficult a process as a lot of people make out. I made no comment at all about how easy or otherwise it is to fix a tub on the roadside. The problem with the topic is that people have very strong opinions about posts they haven't actually read properly!

meesterbond

So, if one wanted to experience the magical qualities of tubular tyres, which brands and models should you try? FMB, Veloflex, Vittoria?

The only reason I ask is that I've got Continental Comps on my tub wheels and I'll be damned if I can tell the difference... that said, everything I've read implies that they're a particular stiff ('hosepipe-like') tub and thus not really representative. When I get the next set, I don't want to make the same mistake. Plus they were a total nightmare to glue on.

dennisn

On a related topic let's not forget Tufo tubular clinchers. I've been riding Tufo 700x25 Elite Ride Tubular Clinchers for more than a few years now and have not found any reason to fault them. No worries about pinch flats(they are tubeless), super easy to change a tire, no need for rim tape, no worries about burrs on the rim, nice smooth ride(at least on the 25's), can be fixed with most tire "goo's", tire stays on if you flat, haven't had flat problems, just seems, for me, to be very conveineint and useful. Worth the money for me.
Note that I don't race and have heard from some racers(or did I read it on the Internet) that maybe the rubber is a bit too hard for really fast, tight cornering. Must be true. :roll:
Now I know some people will come back at me saying that they require you carry a spare. Truer words were never spoken but ya know what, carrying a spare was never an issue for me. And when people talk about not wanting to carry around the weight of a spare tubular I sort of become speechless. Mostly because I simply can't believe that this is any kind of a real problem. Doesn't even sound like a reason to me. But I rant on. Sorry. :oops:

racingcondor

@ meesterbond -

I think the problem you have is that you're on Conti's. I carry a Conti Giro as a spare and have Vittoria SC on the wheels (the Giro was cheap and looks the same). Once they are worn out I plan on moving to Veloflex Criterium or possibly an FMB or Dugast.

Tub or clincher Conti tyres are stiffer than the more traditional tyres so while they should last very well (and certainly the good ones grip very well) they're not quite the same for feel as anyone who's moved between a GP4000 clincher and a Vittoria CX will agree. Tubs take that difference and magnify it as you don't lose a chunk of the inner tube volume inside the rim.