Slo-mo bike/motorcycle collision

Dezza

Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere... please remove this thread if it has.

This has been shown on sky news today: http://www.youtube.com/embed/dNFaAqS2f18

diy

A combination of the wrong line and target fixation. Happens a lot. He would have been staring at the cyclist unable to change course despite all his efforts. You can see he closes the throttle 3-4s before impact which makes the bike run wide, he then brakes about 2s before sealing his fate. Had he maintained an open throttle he would have been able to overtake the cyclists. He's also on the wrong line and should have stayed wide for longer on the way in and not cut the apex. It would have increased his view ahead by a few meters, made him a tiny bit slower on the entry (though he was riding nowhere near the limits) and put him on the throttle not rolling off at the critical point.

Dezza

diy wrote:

A combination of the wrong line and target fixation. Happens a lot. He would have been staring at the cyclist unable to change course despite all his efforts. You can see he closes the throttle 3-4s before impact which makes the bike run wide, he then brakes about 2s before sealing his fate. Had he maintained an open throttle he would have been able to overtake the cyclists. He's also on the wrong line and should have stayed wide for longer on the way in and not cut the apex. It would have increased his view ahead by a few meters, made him a tiny bit slower on the entry (though he was riding nowhere near the limits) and put him on the throttle not rolling off at the critical point.

The way you describe it sounds like the biker is a relative novice. I've never ridden a motorcycle so I have no idea how easy it is to control those beasts off a corner.

declan1

diy wrote:

A combination of the wrong line and target fixation. Happens a lot. He would have been staring at the cyclist unable to change course despite all his efforts. You can see he closes the throttle 3-4s before impact which makes the bike run wide, he then brakes about 2s before sealing his fate. Had he maintained an open throttle he would have been able to overtake the cyclists. He's also on the wrong line and should have stayed wide for longer on the way in and not cut the apex. It would have increased his view ahead by a few meters, made him a tiny bit slower on the entry (though he was riding nowhere near the limits) and put him on the throttle not rolling off at the critical point.

This exactly. Looked seriously painful though :shock:

diy

Dezza wrote:

The way you describe it sounds like the biker is a relative novice. I've never ridden a motorcycle so I have no idea how easy it is to control those beasts off a corner.

It is very, very hard to steer a motorcycle on a bend or around a hazard when you have closed the throttle. Even harder when you are braking. He may not be a novice, its very hard to train yourself to loosen up and get on the gas in these situations because your instinct is to brace up and brake.

In the UK most post learner courses cover cornering (vanishing point, steering dynamics etc) and they would have picked up on the line.

The issue is that the moment you close the throttle the weight transfers to the front and it makes the bike sit up which forces the bike to run wide. On a motorbike often the best way to tighten the corner is to open the throttle a little more which will make the rear drive the front up making the steering lighter. It also (because motorbike tyres are fat at the back and thin at the front) drives the rear out making the turn tighter.

adr82

According to the YouTube description the guy who took the brunt of the impact escaped without any broken bones, lucky for him especially as he landed on his back/neck. Someone's lovely Dura Ace wheels were not so fortunate though :?

mbthegreat

Much of the same theory applies to bicycles, which is why braking in a turn is a bad idea. If you think you are going wide you're best off looking round the bend and trying to ride it out, panicing is just gonna send you flying into the kerb.

declan1

At 1:04 - "Nothing's bleeding terribly............. except for that arm."

herb71

declan1 wrote:

At 1:04 - "Nothing's bleeding terribly............. except for that arm."

I was going to comment on the same statement.

Cyclist would have had a sore neck judging by the way his head whipped, head took a knock as well. Helmet paid for itself that day. Could have been more serious, glad to see the guy walking at the end with nothing too serious.

I ride a motorbike as well, the comments above are on the right track. Biker is looking at the cyclist all the way through the bend. Looked like he apexed early, so was always going to run wide. Bike is hardly leaning, so lots of scope to pull a narrower line had the biker been more capable, even after the initial positioning error.

We need Smidsy for an expert view.

goonz

Just my view but it looked deliberate. I know its wrong and i have no clue about bike handling, but it didnt look like he was going THAT fast, and he could have stopped? It felt bad when seeing the guys fly off the bike but I winced more when I saw those poor wheels and that lovely ti bike totally thrashed!

Glad they are ok though. An who was that chick??? Gotta love a bikers chick!

Jon_1976

watching that made me incredibly angry! :evil:

rolf_f

Surely in this case the motorcyclist could have run wide? Not that much space but it looked like enough space to be better than ploughing straight into the back of the cyclist.

Strith

There's lots of things the biker could have done, but its lack of experience that's the problem. A few guys I used to ride with have come off in similar incidents, thankfully not hitting cyclists or injuring themselves to badly.

diy

You have to remember that even though this is a relatively light bike (Sv650) its still more than twice the weight of the rider. With motorcycles you have to use the weight of the bike to make it steer you cant just lean or turn the bars. Particularly when you have just braked causing your body to slide forward loading up your arms. Nice that nobody attacked the rider and everyone was calm.

peat

Rolf F wrote:

Surely in this case the motorcyclist could have run wide? Not that much space but it looked like enough space to be better than ploughing straight into the back of the cyclist.

As has been described in detail above, it's target fixation. Once he's into "Oh no, a bike! Don't hit the bike!" mode, it's curtains.

It's easy to watch it over and over and say what he 'should' have done.

Strith

Just hope they threw the book at the biker. No excuses for riding like that. Idiot.

Jon_1976

diy wrote:

Nice that nobody attacked the rider and everyone was calm.

Probably cos he did the wise thing: kept helmet on and acted sheepish. Just annoying that someone has to pay for his inexperience.

hipshot

I know this is America, but whoever recorded this took their role seriously. Even climbing the hill to establish a long shot of the recovery truck at the end. Very Hollywood.

Navrig

Target fixation - there is a horrible web page describing how an experienced motorbike rider in the states on a very open road ploughed into the front of an oncoming SUV. No other vehicles on the road, not speeding but the rider just spent too long looking at the oncoming hazard rather than looking along her best line through the sweeping bend.

http://www.msgroup.org/casestudy1.aspx

Cyclists suffer from it too. Think about how often you hit a pot hole or a stone even though you see it coming. If you see it with your peripheral vision you'll steer to miss it. If you look at it.....

Next time you are on your bike in a big open space try staring at a mark on the road and at the same try to avoid it. You'll be surprised at how "hard" it is not to

nicklouse

http://news.sky.com/story/1084820/calif ... o-cyclists

Jon_1976

Navrig wrote:

Target fixation - there is a horrible web page describing how an experienced motorbike rider in the states on a very open road ploughed into the front of an oncoming SUV. No other vehicles on the road, not speeding but the rider just spent too long looking at the oncoming hazard rather than looking along her best line through the sweeping bend.

http://www.msgroup.org/casestudy1.aspx

Cyclists suffer from it too. Think about how often you hit a pot hole or a stone even though you see it coming. If you see it with your peripheral vision you'll steer to miss it. If you look at it.....

Next time you are on your bike in a big open space try staring at a mark on the road and at the same try to avoid it. You'll be surprised at how "hard" it is not to

I remember my brother in law (who is a motor biker & cyclist) telling me about it in a racing scenario. I remember a similar thing mentioned in the Stig's (top gear) autobiography. Similar thing, but when in a car, he was told by someone wiser: when you have oversteer don't just feed in opposite lock aimlessly, look where you want to go and your hands will do the rest.

declan1

I get it quite often when riding. I see a big ditch alongside the road, and that's it - I'm riding in the ditch.

I don't blame the biker at all for the accident; I can completely understand how it happened - as long as he said sorry afterwards!

johngti

My dad was a paramedic in north Wales - every summer there'd be carnage on the roads around snowdonia due to bikers not really understanding how capable their machinery was. The classic way to kill yourself on a bike is to go into a bend slightly more quickly than your comfort level and decide to drop the bike rather than accelerating your way out of it. Many middle aged bikers (who had previously ridden when they were teenagers and bought the latest sports bike with their bonuses) died from impacts with stone walls, other vehicles and lamp posts. If they'd kept their head, leant over a little more and given it a bit more throttle through the apex, they'd have been fine.

Jon_1976

declan1 wrote:

I get it quite often when riding. I see a big ditch alongside the road, and that's it - I'm riding in the ditch.

I don't blame the biker at all for the accident; I can completely understand how it happened - as long as he said sorry afterwards!

I know when I look over my right shoulder, I start to turn right..does that count?

Doesn't happen with the left though :?:

rolf_f

peat wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Surely in this case the motorcyclist could have run wide? Not that much space but it looked like enough space to be better than ploughing straight into the back of the cyclist.

As has been described in detail above, it's target fixation. Once he's into "Oh no, a bike! Don't hit the bike!" mode, it's curtains.

Yes, I got the target fixation thing - it was more a response about the comments discussing the difficulty of tightening the line. If closing the throttle would make it difficult to tighten the line, then it should make it relatively easy to widen it.

declan1 wrote:

I don't blame the biker at all for the accident; I can completely understand how it happened - as long as he said sorry afterwards!

You should blame the biker for the accident. It was the bikers fault - 100%. You can't argue with that! You can understand and sympathise with the circumstances but it was his fault entirely and "sorry" would be scant compensation to me if my body and bike had been wrecked by their poor bike handling.

Navrig

Rolf F wrote:

Yes, I got the target fixation thing - it was more a response about the comments discussing the difficulty of tightening the line. If closing the throttle would make it difficult to tighten the line, then it should make it relatively easy to widen it.

I think the point being made is that once he closed the throttle he realised he was in trouble and, then, by fixating on the bicycle he lost the opportunity to run wide. There didn't appear to be much space to the RHS of the cyclist however he should have gone there and sacrificed himself and his motorbike.

Rolf F wrote:

You should blame the biker for the accident. It was the bikers fault - 100%. You can't argue with that! You can understand and sympathise with the circumstances but it was his fault entirely and "sorry" would be scant compensation to me if my body and bike had been wrecked by their poor bike handling.

Totally agree and given it was in California I am sure he will be dragged through the courts both criminal and civil until his insurance company pays out a fairly significant sum. With video evidence like that he and his insurance company will have nowhere to go.

mbthegreat

nicklouse wrote:

http://news.sky.com/story/1084820/california-crash-biker-skittles-two-cyclists

First comment is about road tax. Sometimes I just despair.

diy

Rolf F wrote:

Yes, I got the target fixation thing - it was more a response about the comments discussing the difficulty of tightening the line. If closing the throttle would make it difficult to tighten the line, then it should make it relatively easy to widen it.

Once he has loaded up the front, the bars go straight and all he can do is just go straight on. Basically at that point he's a passenger on a missile. He cannot steer to the right any more easily than he can steer to the left. In the latest Learner test there is now a brake/swerve element to deal with this very issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TrXIaJSFNQ

From my days of teaching advanced, I have to say its not new riders (just passed the test) that have the problems, they are normally pretty good. Its those who rode in their teens and have come back to it after 20 years. The born again bikers (motorbikings equiv. of MAMILs). Just as we see fat blokes in their late 40s on 5 grand bikes we also see fat blokes in their late 40s on bikes with close to 1bhp per kg, who wouldn't be safe on scooters.

Bobbinogs

mbthegreat wrote:

nicklouse wrote:

http://news.sky.com/story/1084820/california-crash-biker-skittles-two-cyclists

First comment is about road tax. Sometimes I just despair.

Yeah, watched Sky news report on this yesterday and 'cuddly' Eamon Holmes first response was "why don't cyclists ride on pavements?" In fact, when I was riding up a local hill the other day some loon leaned out of a passing car window and shouted "get on the fecking pavement", don't think it was Eamon though.

lotus49

declan1 wrote:

I don't blame the biker at all for the accident; I can completely understand how it happened - as long as he said sorry afterwards!

It was an unfortunate accident but it was completely the biker's fault. If you cannot stop or avoid an obstacle in the road, you were going too quickly. I dare say the US has something similar but the Highway Code says that you should always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear ahead.

Strith

Tax comment is pretty standard, always makes me chuckle.
Target fixation or not the root cause of that accident was the biker riding like a tool, it was his fault 100%.
There's clearly lots of cyclists on that road, I just hope other motorists think ahead a bit more than this one.