Forum home Commuter cycling forum Commuting chat

Dutch Roundabout

kurakokurako Posts: 1,098
edited May 2013 in Commuting chat
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22347184

My first though is holy censored that is some scary sh**.

"The layout gives cyclists priority and means they are in the clear line of sight of drivers when vehicles exit the roundabout."

Great. So drivers *should not* plough into cyclists because they are in sight and as we know people are always giving full attention to the road ahead and are never distracted or make mistakes. Yeah, right.
«134

Posts

  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,954
    If you can try and persuade that roundabouts shouldn't be passed through without lifting your left foot, then it might stand a chance. I'm impressed that they've gone to the trouble of building one to test what people do when faced with one out of the blue, and who knows, maybe people will take to them like they were always like that. But, as that photo in the article shows, it only takes some driver 'in a hurry' to not give way and you've got a cyclist wedged under the engine.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • draysdrays Posts: 119
    That sends shivers down my spine...

    How many drivers are going to drive straight through expecting cyclists to give way?
    2014 Planet X Pro Carbon
    2012 Boardman Hybrid Comp
    2010 Boardman Pro Hardtail
    c1994 Raleigh Outland MTB
  • ManiaMuseManiaMuse Posts: 89
    In two minds. It could work I suppose, although could also lead to some pretty horrific collisions if drivers ignore it and cyclist assumes invulnerability.

    Probably works in the Netherlands because drivers are used to them but over here would almost certainly confuse drivers at least for a while.
  • HeadhuunterHeadhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Yep, I can certainly see drivers in and around London ploughing straight through these without giving way. They already do at many zebra crossings, I've almost been mown down by motorists pushing through zebras as I am about 2 thirds of the way across, just skimming the back of my legs...
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • EKE_38BPMEKE_38BPM Posts: 5,980
    I saw it on the news this morning and my first thoughts are all negative.

    Imagine a roundabout with four exits, let's call them north, south, east and west. A cyclist riding north and wanting to take the east exit will enter the south exit and will have to cross two exits (west and north), negotiating two sets of traffic from the RAB which may or may not give way to it. If traffic does give way at the exits it will drastically slow traffic on the RAB and lead to congestion on the approaches to the RAB and the RAB itself.
    The cyclist, who has now taken the west exit, has to now merge with the traffic coming off of the RAB, which has hopefully seen them.

    I think that if I ever come across one of these RABs I will continue with my usual style of vehicular cycling as I feel I will be safer and it will be faster for me and traffic generally.
    FCN 3: Raleigh Record Ace fixie-to be resurrected sometime in the future
    FCN 4: Planet X Schmaffenschmack 2- workhorse
    FCN 9: B Twin Vitamin - winter commuter/loan bike for trainees

    I'm hungry. I'm always hungry!
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,954
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    I saw it on the news this morning and my first thoughts are all negative.

    Imagine a roundabout with four exits, let's call them north, south, east and west. A cyclist riding north and wanting to take the east exit will enter the south exit and will have to cross two exits (west and north), negotiating two sets of traffic from the RAB which may or may not give way to it. If traffic does give way at the exits it will drastically slow traffic on the RAB and lead to congestion on the approaches to the RAB and the RAB itself.
    The cyclist, who has now taken the west exit, has to now merge with the traffic coming off of the RAB, which has hopefully seen them.

    I think that if I ever come across one of these RABs I will continue with my usual style of vehicular cycling as I feel I will be safer and it will be faster for me and traffic generally.

    Quite. The whole point of a RAB over a standard junction with lights is (or perhaps that should be 'was' as so many RABs now have lights as well) that vehicles can pass through it more quickly. Apparently, Milton Keynes was originally designed with crossroads at each junction, but switched to RABs as they were cheaper to build. This led to the grid of roads being 50mph dual carriageways, rather than the planned <30mph suburban routes.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • phy2sll2phy2sll2 Posts: 680
    They do work, though my experience is limited to Belgium.

    It will take a while for people to get used to.

    There will have to be additional 'calming' on the roundabouts themselves until that happens, I think.
  • OrigamistOrigamist Posts: 807
    In the Netherlands roundabouts where cyclists have priority are slightly more dangerous than roundabouts where cyclists do not have priority. The Dutch know this, but due to favouring bicycle travel they retain cycle priority in urban roundabouts. This is essentially a political decision aimed at changing road user behaviour by making cycling seem more appealing and convenient. If the trial is successful and widely implemented, it will herald a significant shift in the modal transport hierarchy.
  • That does look scary. It's hard enough getting drivers to avoid stopping beyond the advanced stopping line at traffic lights, never mind a complex system like that roundabout. How do you go about educating road users (including cyclists as well as drivers) about these things?

    Having said that, until I saw the news story, I'd thought a Dutch roundabout was something from Roger's Profanisaurus in Viz that can't be described on a family forum such as this
  • CiBCiB Posts: 6,098
    rjsterry wrote:
    Apparently, Milton Keynes was originally designed with crossroads at each junction, but switched to RABs as they were cheaper to build. This led to the grid of roads being 50mph dual carriageways, rather than the planned <30mph suburban routes.
    MK was always planned to have its grid roads connected with roundabouts - the joke was that every time a planner put down his coffee mug another roundabout was added; it's not a good joke tbh. The grid roads are generally NSL - 60 for single c/way, 70 for dual except for odd bits where 40 limits have been imposed, usually following a bit of campaigning following a fatality (even though there are numerous underpasses & footbridges to separate traffic from peds, but that's another argument).

    I can't see this Dutch RAB being adopted in the UK; it goes so against the ingrained attitude that most drivers use on RABs. And as the only clear indication of priority is the white paint on the road surface which will be eroded away as surely as night follows day, the design has a built-in reduction of effectiveness over time. I really wouldn't like to see my kids being taught that they have RoW on this sort of junction.
  • Daz555Daz555 Posts: 4,040
    Fairly sure a "dutch roundabout" is some sort of deviant sexual behaviour. :mrgreen:
    You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
    If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
    If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.
  • msmancuniamsmancunia Posts: 1,457
    The best roundabout I've used is one in Salford near the M602. It's dug out underneath, with well-lit subways for pedestrians and cyclists, with illuminated lines to follow to tell you which exit to take for your direction.
    Commute: Chadderton - Sportcity
  • notsobluenotsoblue Posts: 5,838
    Strict liability probably has a lot to do with why this works in The Netherlands.
  • cookeeemonstercookeeemonster Posts: 1,976
    Bloody hell you people are negative.

    Lets just keep everything as it is as everything is soooooooooooo great right now.

    They are trying something that works elsewhere, theres no reason why it wont work here...yes there'll be a bit of confusion at first but there's confusion on current roundabouts anyway from the way people drive.

    Give them credit for trying it out and lets see what happens....
  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    I am sick and tired of this pandering to the Dutch system of cycling. I am.

    The hybrids have won. This is the death of the road bike. Gone are the days where you'd approach a roundabout with glee and lean into the apex and roar out the other end powered along by gravitational boost! Nay, the time defying slingshot around the Sun move [reference. Greg] is dead. It's over, next will be SCR and when that is made 'safe' cycling will literally be the sport of the pussies.

    The RAB would need a change in attitude/cultural shift from all parties to work. Giving way isn't a Londoner's strong point. I don't like it, I liked how it was back in 2007/08 all that was needed was a more awareness not f*cking wide spread change.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • notsobluenotsoblue Posts: 5,838
    You're like a black Jeremy Clarkson on two wheels, DDD.

    Edit: Without the irony.
  • pangolinpangolin Posts: 3,130
    Or the speed
    Genesis Croix de Fer
    Cube Attain
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,954
    CiB wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Apparently, Milton Keynes was originally designed with crossroads at each junction, but switched to RABs as they were cheaper to build. This led to the grid of roads being 50mph dual carriageways, rather than the planned <30mph suburban routes.
    MK was always planned to have its grid roads connected with roundabouts - the joke was that every time a planner put down his coffee mug another roundabout was added; it's not a good joke tbh. The grid roads are generally NSL - 60 for single c/way, 70 for dual except for odd bits where 40 limits have been imposed, usually following a bit of campaigning following a fatality (even though there are numerous underpasses & footbridges to separate traffic from peds, but that's another argument).

    Well I was told this by a senior planner at Milton Keynes council during a design competition we entered, but it may well be apocryphal. Wikipedia seems to confirm your version.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • mrolimroli Posts: 3,622
    They already do at many zebra crossings, I've almost been mown down by motorists pushing through zebras as I am about 2 thirds of the way across, just skimming the back of my legs...
    f*&king idiot cyclists are just as bad - the one near me which has a school at the end of it, the motorists generally behave pretty well, but the cyclists are awful....
  • spen666spen666 Posts: 17,709
    So we are going to make cyclists safer by making them cross roads at 90degrees to the other traffic, thus increasing the time they are at risk of collissions.

    I have to say my first thoughts are this creates far more problems than it solves and seems to have been designed to solve a problem that does not exist (cyclists getting crushed whilst on roundabout other than at exit points) by exacerbating the real problem (cyclists getting crushed at exit points by vehicles turning across/ into them)
    Want to know the Spen666 behind the posts?
    Then read MY BLOG @ http://www.pebennett.com

    Twittering @spen_666
  • davmaggsdavmaggs Posts: 1,008
    I'm not so negative about this idea as some.

    I think that we aren't the target audience for this design, we are already out there mixing it up with traffic. The hardened commuter sees paths and separates lanes as being a hindrance (which they are), but they aren't intended for us.

    Where this would work is in getting leisure routes to be joined up rather than people running out of 'safe' path as they hit a scary bit. At the moment quiet cycle routes or residential side roads are cut off by fast ring roads or frightening roundabouts, the less experienced cyclist is trapped unless they try their luck and get themselves over to the next area of safety.

    Not every roundabout is a high speed mass of fast cars, they are many on ring roads or around town centres that could adopt this system as they are quieter a lot of the day.
  • MonkeypumpMonkeypump Posts: 1,528
    In addition to the risk of injury to cyclists, isnt' having a stop-point immediately on the RAB exit going to cause increased traffic and car accidents?

    A good percentage of the time drivers will have to stop for cyclists with little warning. Cue rear-ender from the car behind, potential multi-car involvement and complete stand-still. At best, even stopping appropriately is going to slow the traffic flow considerably.

    I like the approach of trying something different, but can't see this working (or ever being rolled out on a big scale anyway).
  • EKE_38BPMEKE_38BPM Posts: 5,980
    Monkeypump wrote:
    In addition to the risk of injury to cyclists, isnt' having a stop-point immediately on the RAB exit going to cause increased traffic and car accidents?

    A good percentage of the time drivers will have to stop for cyclists with little warning. Cue rear-ender from the car behind, potential multi-car involvement and complete stand-still. At best, even stopping appropriately is going to slow the traffic flow considerably.

    I like the approach of trying something different, but can't see this working (or ever being rolled out on a big scale anyway).

    Like wot I said.

    Seems to me the general consensus is a thumbs down for this design from the Commuting Chat possee (or should that be peloton?) but, as has been said, this isn't really aimed at us, we already play in traffic.
    My one concession to this design is that it would provide a filter lane for turning left. I think that is called damning it with faint praise.
    FCN 3: Raleigh Record Ace fixie-to be resurrected sometime in the future
    FCN 4: Planet X Schmaffenschmack 2- workhorse
    FCN 9: B Twin Vitamin - winter commuter/loan bike for trainees

    I'm hungry. I'm always hungry!
  • roger_merrimanroger_merriman Posts: 6,155
    I think it might work better for most cyclists, I personally like roundabouts, I'm calm confident rider. But lots don't like and make a meal out of roundabouts.

    RE the increased shunts? Round here do get zebras close by don't seem to get more shunts than a busy roundabout might get.

    I short I think it's worth giving it a punt.
  • pitchshifterpitchshifter Posts: 1,476
    Problem: HGV's kill cyclists at junctions.

    Solution: Lets make roundabouts fuuuunnnky!
  • SketchleySketchley Posts: 4,235
    Won't the cyclist on cycle bit in that picture be in the blind spot of HGV on the roundabout?
    --
    Chris

    Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/5
  • davmaggsdavmaggs Posts: 1,008
    Problem: HGV's kill cyclists at junctions.

    Solution: Lets make roundabouts fuuuunnnky!

    What does the HGV at junctions problem have to do with this?

    I feel sorry for people who try to solve problems. You can bet all your world assets, that the moment you post a solution online for one particular problem, someone will come along with their favourite issue and say that this should over-ride all other work and until you solve their issue then you should never work on anything else.
  • SketchleySketchley Posts: 4,235
    phy2sll2 wrote:

    That'll never work here, they are going the wrong way round it.....
    --
    Chris

    Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/5
  • phy2sll2phy2sll2 Posts: 680
    Also, apart from roundabouts, there's scope to improve junctions. Watch these two:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HDN9fUlqU8&feature=youtu.be
Sign In or Register to comment.