Opening a bike shop??

ugo.santalucia

MountainMonster wrote:

smidsy wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

That is exactly the problem. I don't see why people are so obsessed at saving every little penny and not supporting your local economy and/or someone's shop. I think laziness plays a large part as well!

You surely do not believe that.

Come on, if you can get somehting the same but cheaper then any sane, rational person would.

People work hard for their money and things are getting tighter and tighter so every pound saved is a blessing.

Hobbies are expensive enough without paying more for something than you have to.

I accept that local businesses need to thrive too but when online retailers supply what you want it is very difficult for them. Just look at HMV, Blockbuster, Comet etc etc.

I do support my LBS as much as I can (always get tools, nuts, bolts, brake pads etc) and even pay them to true wheels and stuff, but I got my Basso at 50% reduction so I am sure as hell not going to pay full price down the LBS.

OP - this debate is exactly why it is very difficult for a LBS and only affirms my earlier stance.

Coffe, cakes and cycling related something, maybe, selling bikes and clothing is very very tough.

That is very true, but sadly I do believe it. Every single generation in the history of the world says things are getting harder and harder, and that money is tighter than ever. I can understand that, but part of the problem why the economy is getting worse and worse is because people would rather save their extra x amount of money for themselves rather than thinking for the greater good. If people bought local that would stimulate the jobs market, open up new shops, and not just put the cash in the pocket of a few giants. Economies of scale is great, and that is why online faces thrive so well, but the truth is that it is doing more damage than good.

These problems will always exist, but boosting your local economy is the only way things will improve. Shopping online just gives a few people a job in some warehouse, and does not really provide much benefit. The truth is online shopping has made the population very lazy, this effects work patterns, the economy, health and many other things. I just see shopping online differently than most people, probably because I am not solely focused on saving myself money whenever I can.

I think it is great being able to go into shops, ask for help and they help me right then and there, I can ask them what they recommend for whatever the job is, and walk away with it that day in most cases. If I have to order it, oh well, still go through the shop. I don't have to deal with posting of items when a warranty claim is done, if something breaks on me I can get it switched out that day rather than waiting weeks, and I make buddies. I ride with my local shop simply because they are a great group of guys and girls, ride at times that fit me, and they have a great shop. None of these things are possible with the likes of CRC or Wiggle (to a certain extent, but you won't have people from Wiggle calling you inviting you for rides, or forming a friendship).

Life is about so much more than saving money!

So not true... we have to stop blaming internet for the loss of jobs/local shops and dream of an age where everything did cost twice as much and there was paractically no choice. That was the same era when in Britain you could only buy potatoes, carrots and apples... everything else was extravagant. The economy wasn't thriving either and there was unemployment and crap jobs down mineshafts...
If a shop does well, it can survive and thrive and expand... if a shop does not well, it has no reason to be there. People are fair and if they have a great local shop, they will use it. Nobody stops shops from selling online as well, many do (Spa cycles in Harrogate, to name one... )
The problem is that half of the shops have incompetent staff and have not done their homework to cater for the local crowd... they have therefore no reason to exist.

If the business plan is right, the shop will work... people are fair

VTech

I wouldnt worry about charging, its a mistake many people make and one that couldnt be further from reality.

Lets take "Ugo" for example, I have read countless posts saying he can make wheels and that he is reliable.
I dont know his personal situation so this is based on business and nothing more but for me, I would gladly pay for advice as well as labour and so would the majority.
People often think that its cheeky to charge for all services but thats life and at the end of the day you need to make money, without that your just another statistic of a failed business.

If I wanted wheels made I would first think about looks (im being honest here to paint a picture of a varied customer) then safety which would be my overall deciding factor. If I had purchased a set of carbon rims for example (as I did) I would want to have them checked, for this I would happily pay a fee and take them to someone like Ugo, he should then charge me, lets say an hours labour each wheel so maybe £200+vat and away I go happy in the knowledge that all is good.

You will then automatically think that the cost is a lot of money and so many potential customers would rather stay away, now this is where the real point is made. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE LOST CUSTOMERS, THEY WERE NEVER YOUR CUSTOMERS TO BEGIN WITH !!!!
You do NOT need the type of customer who will penny pinch on safety, you need to put your effort into customers that want good, honest, reliable advice and service that gets the job done. There are plenty of those about and if you get it right, the business will succeed.
You will also need to match your LBS with a very good web presence.

Price is an instant, once paid you don't think about the cost, you think about the enjoyment of the item or service purchased.


Now for what its worth, ill pretend that someone has asked me if I would do it.

Simon says; "VTech, would you open a little bike shop?"

VTech says; No, I would not open any customer faced shop in the current climate, the reason for this is down to higher business rates, little to no regeneration outlets available as shop front (most of these are in trading estates so no good for a LBS) and cost. To make a half decent shop, unless you had a worthy background of business you will need to pay upfront for stock and the bank will almost certainly not loan on a new business and most of the bridging loan companies went at the start of the recession so you would be left with a rough startup cost of;

Shop (rent, fixtures and fittings and decorating) £5k - £20k

Stock, to be competitive you will to stock several brands of bike, in 3-4 sizes for men and woman and kids, covering road, tri, bmx, mountain etc £30k - £100k

Wages, you would need to cover the wages by law. I would guess that you would start with 3 month contracts so for 2 staff lets call it £15k

Extras, this is the silent killer, you would need a "dip" account of around £30k to cover unexpected costs and there will be plenty.

This gives even a totally rough figure of £80k - £165k and I am still unsure if that would cover it.

I am not putting anyone off intentionally, there is a reason most businesses are now online.

MountainMonster

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

smidsy wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

That is exactly the problem. I don't see why people are so obsessed at saving every little penny and not supporting your local economy and/or someone's shop. I think laziness plays a large part as well!

You surely do not believe that.

Come on, if you can get somehting the same but cheaper then any sane, rational person would.

People work hard for their money and things are getting tighter and tighter so every pound saved is a blessing.

Hobbies are expensive enough without paying more for something than you have to.

I accept that local businesses need to thrive too but when online retailers supply what you want it is very difficult for them. Just look at HMV, Blockbuster, Comet etc etc.

I do support my LBS as much as I can (always get tools, nuts, bolts, brake pads etc) and even pay them to true wheels and stuff, but I got my Basso at 50% reduction so I am sure as hell not going to pay full price down the LBS.

OP - this debate is exactly why it is very difficult for a LBS and only affirms my earlier stance.

Coffe, cakes and cycling related something, maybe, selling bikes and clothing is very very tough.

That is very true, but sadly I do believe it. Every single generation in the history of the world says things are getting harder and harder, and that money is tighter than ever. I can understand that, but part of the problem why the economy is getting worse and worse is because people would rather save their extra x amount of money for themselves rather than thinking for the greater good. If people bought local that would stimulate the jobs market, open up new shops, and not just put the cash in the pocket of a few giants. Economies of scale is great, and that is why online faces thrive so well, but the truth is that it is doing more damage than good.

These problems will always exist, but boosting your local economy is the only way things will improve. Shopping online just gives a few people a job in some warehouse, and does not really provide much benefit. The truth is online shopping has made the population very lazy, this effects work patterns, the economy, health and many other things. I just see shopping online differently than most people, probably because I am not solely focused on saving myself money whenever I can.

I think it is great being able to go into shops, ask for help and they help me right then and there, I can ask them what they recommend for whatever the job is, and walk away with it that day in most cases. If I have to order it, oh well, still go through the shop. I don't have to deal with posting of items when a warranty claim is done, if something breaks on me I can get it switched out that day rather than waiting weeks, and I make buddies. I ride with my local shop simply because they are a great group of guys and girls, ride at times that fit me, and they have a great shop. None of these things are possible with the likes of CRC or Wiggle (to a certain extent, but you won't have people from Wiggle calling you inviting you for rides, or forming a friendship).

Life is about so much more than saving money!

So not true... we have to stop blaming internet for the loss of jobs/local shops and dream of an age where everything did cost twice as much and there was paractically no choice. That was the same era when in Britain you could only buy potatoes, carrots and apples... everything else was extravagant. The economy wasn't thriving either and there was unemployment and crap jobs down mineshafts...
If a shop does well, it can survive and thrive and expand... if a shop does not well, it has no reason to be there. People are fair and if they have a great local shop, they will use it. Nobody stops shops from selling online as well, many do (Spa cycles in Harrogate, to name one... )
The problem is that half of the shops have incompetent staff and have not done their homework to cater for the local crowd... they have therefore no reason to exist.

If the business plan is right, the shop will work... people are fair

I can understand your reasoning, I just do not agree with it. A local shop, no matter how good it is, will not survive well when a very large portion of the consumers only buy based on price, and therefore turn to online retailers just to save money. That is the same reason a large portion of shops in many industries struggle so much, and why many go under.

All I am trying to get across is that price is not the only factor, but a huge portion of the population focus solely on that, which sends them onto the Internet. The sad part is many people deny this, yourself included. Now a days if shops want great employees they pay a premium for them, but with so much of the market share going to online retailers it is hard to afford this, so it only fuels the problems more. It is a bit of a chicken and egg problem.

rolf_f

Vtech needs to stop talking sense as it will confuse us all! There's no way I'd want to start a business with a high street physical presence these days. It just makes stuff so much more complicated. Last time someone talked about starting up a cycle business (online irrc) I suggested he sell beads! Chicks (for some reason) seem to love buying beads. There are even high street beed shops! What they do with them I'm not sure but the margins are huge, the product value is low, returns are straightforward and you don't need a vast warehouse for them. If you are selling, it doesn't matter what you are selling - the profit matters and profit is as much about minimising costs as maximising unit profit. Bike stuff is bulky, often high value and people return loads of stuff.

I'd add to his list that I think you need a lot of drive to succeed. Without that you can't win!

ugo.santalucia

VTech wrote:

and take them to someone like Ugo, he should then charge me, lets say an hours labour each wheel so maybe £200+vat

:shock: :shock: :shock:

ugo.santalucia

MountainMonster wrote:

I can understand your reasoning, I just do not agree with it. A local shop, no matter how good it is, will not survive well when a very large portion of the consumers only buy based on price, and therefore turn to online retailers just to save money. That is the same reason a large portion of shops in many industries struggle so much, and why many go under.

All I am trying to get across is that price is not the only factor, but a huge portion of the population focus solely on that, which sends them onto the Internet. The sad part is many people deny this, yourself included. Now a days if shops want great employees they pay a premium for them, but with so much of the market share going to online retailers it is hard to afford this, so it only fuels the problems more. It is a bit of a chicken and egg problem.

I would agree with you, but I am finding out this is not the case. There are customers who would buy anything that is on offer and there are customers who would buy something specific regardless of the price. In between there are many shades of grey and any LBS needs to find the tone that works in its area... that is why local knowledge is paramount.
Not everyone shops at Tesco, although very many do... I think we do need fewer LBS, but much better ones

VTech

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

and take them to someone like Ugo, he should then charge me, lets say an hours labour each wheel so maybe £200+vat

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Why does that shock ?

ugo.santalucia

VTech wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

and take them to someone like Ugo, he should then charge me, lets say an hours labour each wheel so maybe £200+vat

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Why does that shock ?

You will find that's a lot even for Strada Wheels...

A mercedes garage charges you that for labour, but we can't plug your wheels on a laptop and give you a diagnosis, I'm afraid...

VTech

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

and take them to someone like Ugo, he should then charge me, lets say an hours labour each wheel so maybe £200+vat

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Why does that shock ?

You will find that's a lot even for Strada Wheels...

A mercedes garage charges you that for labour, but we can't plug your wheels on a laptop and give you a diagnosis, I'm afraid...

Ok, maybe thats too much but the point is a good one, people tend not to value their time.
Its a vital business mistake.
I could charge £200 per day for my work and be booked for months in advance. I can charge £1000 a day and be just as booked.
Price has never been a factor in getting work, if your good at what you do (going back to your point about the LBS needing to be excellent) people will come.
This is the same for almost all trades.

smidsy

MountainMonster wrote:

Life is about so much more than saving money!

Only when you have so much you do not need to worry about it.

The vast majority of us are just about surviving, what with the cost of all things we need rising and salaries stagnating (or even shrinking).

I am afraid that unless the cost of living falls, or salaries increase we need to think about saving money where ever and when ever we can.

ugo.santalucia

smidsy wrote:

The vast majority of us are just about surviving

Said the man who had just bought a new hand made carbon frame...

BelgianBeerGeek

Sound advice VTech.

I would just like to add that any business should have something that makes it better or different from the competitors. If you are yet another mainstream LBS why would I, as a customer, come to you?

VTech

ugo.santalucia wrote:

smidsy wrote:

The vast majority of us are just about surviving

Said the man who had just bought a new hand made carbon frame...

And there is THE MOST important lesson you will ever learn in any business.

It doesnt matter what you charge for something, people will buy it.
People spend, not on what they can afford, but what they want.

How many of you know unemployed people with big screen TV's and Sky TV package ?
They will then moan that they cant afford to pay the electricity bill after spending £30 a month on TV.

Im not saying all unemployed or poor people do this but my point is valid.
People spend on what matters just as much as whats needed.


I need a 3 bed house, 1 car, food for 5 and a phone.
I guess thats the same for so many but we choose to have a bigger house, maybe 2 cars, go out for meals, Pay TV etc etc etc etc.

VTech

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

I would just like to add that any business should have something that makes it better or different from the competitors. If you are yet another mainstream LBS why would I, as a customer, come to you?

Another great point.

Why ?

Answer this, solve it and you will be one step ahead of your rivals.

smidsy

ugo.santalucia wrote:

smidsy wrote:

The vast majority of us are just about surviving

Said the man who had just bought a new hand made carbon frame...

True enough, but that is a great example of my argument.

I was able to buy that:
a) because I saved money by not buying stuff for quite a while.
b) because it was 50% off via a well known on-line retailer.
c) because I finally stopped paying for my previous marrriage, so at last I have some (not large amounts) of disposable income.

Anyway, the point is that if I had gone down to my LBS to buy it I would have had to find another £1500, which I do not have. Hence just about surviving.

So by not spending on stuff down the high street I was able to buy the frame :-)

ugo.santalucia

smidsy wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

smidsy wrote:

The vast majority of us are just about surviving

Said the man who had just bought a new hand made carbon frame...

True enough, but that is a great example of my argument.

I was able to buy that:
a) because I saved money by not buying stuff for quite a while.
b) because it was 50% off via a well known on-line retailer.
c) because I finally stopped paying for my previous marrriage, so at last I have some (not large amounts) of disposable income.

Anyway, the point is that if I had gone down to my LBS to buy it I would have had to find another £1500, which I do not have. Hence just about surviving.

So by not spending on stuff down the high street I was able to buy the frame :-)

I built a set of wheels for a guy who told his wife he found them in a skip... he asked me to use some old rim tape to make everything more realistic, I have even given him a pair of old rusty skewers...

supermurph09

When unhappy with my work situation last week, I dreamt up something like owning a bike shop. Forgiving the fact I dont really have the knowledge about bikes, just a passion I thought to make it work you'd need to offer a bike fit service. If you offer a good service people will come and spend £130-£180 for the privilidge. If you can do one a day, at £150 a time, thats about £55k revenue. That would pay someone a decent wage, leave you with a nice profit and get people coming to the shop. I'd also look to speak to some of the big chains that dont offer their own fits and offer discount for their leads. I'd also been in contact with all the local fitters so they can refer people on to you if they are busy, works both ways. Add in a nice place for people to come, drink coffee, eat cake with some good stock lines then you're surely off and running?

binkybike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

smidsy wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

smidsy wrote:

The vast majority of us are just about surviving

Said the man who had just bought a new hand made carbon frame...

True enough, but that is a great example of my argument.

I was able to buy that:
a) because I saved money by not buying stuff for quite a while.
b) because it was 50% off via a well known on-line retailer.
c) because I finally stopped paying for my previous marrriage, so at last I have some (not large amounts) of disposable income.

Anyway, the point is that if I had gone down to my LBS to buy it I would have had to find another £1500, which I do not have. Hence just about surviving.

So by not spending on stuff down the high street I was able to buy the frame :-)

I built a set of wheels for a guy who told his wife he found them in a skip... he asked me to use some old rim tape to make everything more realistic, I have even given him a pair of old rusty skewers...

Now, that is the kind of service money can't buy online! I'd like some archetypes ... I'd have to pay you to ride them round the block a few times to wear the brake track a bit

MountainMonster

smidsy wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

Life is about so much more than saving money!

Only when you have so much you do not need to worry about it.

The vast majority of us are just about surviving, what with the cost of all things we need rising and salaries stagnating (or even shrinking).

I am afraid that unless the cost of living falls, or salaries increase we need to think about saving money where ever and when ever we can.

That is very true on the living part. Prices for space here at extortionate compared with most of Europe, let alone everywhere. The one thing I will say is this: when prices and costs are so much lower in other places for living and having fun, yet they are still seeing such a boom in online shops, does that really mean that it is just about saving money? Society as a whole is too pampered and lazy I think. Hell I know friends who only leave their house to go to the pub, to take care of appointments they have to do and have all of their stuff delivered; even their groceries. Pretty sad how things are going

ugo.santalucia

MountainMonster wrote:

smidsy wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

Life is about so much more than saving money!

Only when you have so much you do not need to worry about it.

The vast majority of us are just about surviving, what with the cost of all things we need rising and salaries stagnating (or even shrinking).

I am afraid that unless the cost of living falls, or salaries increase we need to think about saving money where ever and when ever we can.

That is very true on the living part. Prices for space here at extortionate compared with most of Europe, let alone everywhere. The one thing I will say is this: when prices and costs are so much lower in other places for living and having fun, yet they are still seeing such a boom in online shops, does that really mean that it is just about saving money? Society as a whole is too pampered and lazy I think. Hell I know friends who only leave their house to go to the pub, to take care of appointments they have to do and have all of their stuff delivered; even their groceries. Pretty sad how things are going

Thing is, going to Tesco on a saturday afternoon is hardly exciting is it? On the contrary I know people who travel 30 miles to spend an hour at Sigma sport in Kingston...
20 years ago people were queuing to spend a saturday afternoon at Ikea.
Whenever I can, I am always happy to do a two hour round trip on the tube to go and pick up some rims at Brick Lane Bikes... I could have them delivered, would cost me less, but I enjoy the place (and stop for coffee at a cafe' around the corner)...
Moral is people move their axxes when there is something they are interested in... supermarket have stopped being exciting places 50 years ago, hence home delivery is booming

goonz

Its a good idea, depending on where you are if you are in London get down to the cycle shop in East Sheen and see how they operate, fairly similar to your idea. Cafe outside sitting and bike shop. Also dont forget selling energy drinks and other recovery aids not just coffees.

Most importantly and for me pretty darn important about my lbs, how passionate are you about bikes and how much do you know about them?

VTech

When I first joined this forum I was blasted for a comment I made about a similar thing where a guy wanted to work within the bike industry and I said something along the lines of.

"Are you fit ? decent looking ?
Get yourself into the exercise business, offer 1-2-1 training, aim at the housewife market, they love nothing more than a little eye candy and will pay handsomely for the privilege of getting fit, losing weight and having a touch of glamour to the regime."

I stand by that comment, I could go on about the subject and maybe people didnt like the point I was trying to make but its valid, its a great marketplace for someone who can fit the bill (obviously a fat, bald 40 something doesnt hit the spot) but you get the meaning.

If you like cycling, you can do this with low outlay and high income.
My wife is paying around £80/week for a personal trainer at the moment, she is getting fitter, losing a few kilo and feeling good about it. Its all good.

g00se

Just a few mores thoughts to add that seem to work for the surviving LBSes around here...

Actual bikes sales could be difficult depending upon shop size, location and competition with chains and internet. So you need to have something else to offer - or find an angle to compete on a level playing field.

1. Bikes - look for bikes people want but can't get easily get below RRP online. So, if you're in a London commuter belt, look to stock Bromptons. Dutch bikes may be a way to go to if there's the yummy-mummy middle-class thing going on?

2. A lot of shops are irked by folks buying bikes and bits online and bringing them into the shop to be fixed, fitted etc. Make this a feature (though may be worth avoiding the cheap, made-of-cheese catalogue bikes). Safety checks, fitting etc. Look to sell new stems, saddles, pedals etc. during the fitting where they'd be needed for the fitting process.

3. Befriend local bike clubs / CTC etc and offer sponsorship, discounts etc. If you can tie in with a large local club, there could be some loyalty to fall back on.

4. If it's a biggish place, look to get involved with local events so you're seen as an active part of any local club scenes. This will work hand in hand with the cafe.

Coach H

I had an electronic conversation with Ugo when he was first considering his concept. YOU may want to open a bike shop with the sideline of a coffee shop however your bank manager is FAR more likely to lend money for a coffee shop in a viable location and if you are lucky, have good local market research, a good business model they may take a risk on an LBS on the side.

Great concept though. Sunday morning opening is a must and find a way of getting the local club run leaders to change the meeting point that they have had for the last 30+ years to your shop and you will pick up at least sundry item trade.

AchillesLeftKnee

MountainMonster wrote:

That is very true on the living part. Prices for space here at extortionate compared with most of Europe, let alone everywhere. The one thing I will say is this: when prices and costs are so much lower in other places for living and having fun, yet they are still seeing such a boom in online shops, does that really mean that it is just about saving money? Society as a whole is too pampered and lazy I think. Hell I know friends who only leave their house to go to the pub, to take care of appointments they have to do and have all of their stuff delivered; even their groceries. Pretty sad how things are going

Hmm, not sure why the avoidance of shopping is considered sad. Not everyone finds shopping to be a pleasant experience. Personally, I hate it, even for discretionary purchases.

Pross

My tuppence. Forget a shop that sells the big ticket items. Concentrate on consumables and common upgrades together with repairs. Rather than be one of those LBS (understandably) complaining about the competition from online retailers use it to your advantage. Advertise yourself as fitting parts purchased elsewhere by the customer - I've never understood bike shops that won't fit online purchases, there is more profit in the labour than in the sale. Assuming you have the necessary skills yourself run a few evening classes in basic bike maintenance and advertise them. If selling bikes consider providing a good range of kids bikes, in my experience that is the sort of area that is poorly covered. Have a few other things like rarer cycling books and DVDs. Offer a fast turn around on repairs - you can either get a good market from commuters who need something fixed for their return journey or even a 'while you wait' service so that they increase spend in your cafe. Depending on your on your location make sure you are open on a Sunday - that's when most people get their bike out and realise something needs fixing or replacing. So few bike shops do this, I've never understood why, they can be closed for a couple of days midweek if necessary with very little loss of trade in most smaller towns. I suspect it is due to my final point - forget about cycling yourself, the time when you would usually go out is going to be your peak period!

ooermissus

Pross wrote:

run a few evening classes in basic bike maintenance

Not just basic maintenance. I think people would be interested in more specialist stuff.

cheaterkiller

sprintkid wrote:

Hello all, I need some feedback from some like minded people. I have been toying with the idea for some time now of opening a bike shop. A property that would be perfect for my dream shop has come vacant so I've decided to get some feedback on my idea. I want to open a shop with all the usual stuff you would find in any decent bike shop. Everything from high end road bike through to kids bikes. But along side the bike shop I would like to run a cafe for cyclists. A place for a club ride cake stop. Or just someone out on their bike who fancies a cool place to chill out. I'd have screens with cycling on them. But I'd also like to have evenings with some roller race events and stuff like that. The question is do the fine people out there think this would be the sort of shop they would use??? All feedback welcome

Sound idea mate! Maybe you could even host club rides or somethin. Another idea would be to have some sort of cycle training type of thing where you could teach numpties like me proper cycle maintenance and repair. Seems to be sod all like that in my area. As for how basic or specialised the training is then that would depend on how much they can pay for the time.

goonz

Just stock it with the top of the range Assos, Rapha, Castelli, Gore and other hard to find Italian branded clothing manufacturers.

You will at least get all the MAMIL's in and they have to be bound to spend some money!

Jezzery

Maybe consider having a bike fitting service and employing someone or learning the trade yourself. This seems like a very popular business to be into at the moment. You could then sell them their perfect bike.