Bamboo bikes

TanTan

Hi, I'm a university student and, as part of our assignment, we have to compose a marketing plan for a bike company that uses bamboo to make its frames. I'm trying to get some primary research together to help me with my recommendations and would like to ask if anyone can answer a few quick questions for me.

Here is a bit of basic info about the company and a link to the website:
Bamboo Bikes is a small company based in Scarborough, Yorkshire that build high performance bamboo bike frames and have been working with bamboo bike technology for four years.
The bikes are all hand-made and completely constructed from bamboo, with flax fibre lugs that add strength and shock-absorption. Bamboo Bikes use exclusive engineering technology under license from Oxford Brookes University.
The reasons for the company using bamboo as a material are as follows:
· Bamboo has a higher tensile strength than steel
· The natural stiffness of the bamboo is maximised so that it makes one of the stiffest frames
· Bamboo is extremely absorbent of vibrations and bumps in the road meaning that it performs well for performance riding such as mountain biking
· Bamboo tubes have consistent properties which make it an ideal natural material for high-tech applications such as bicycle frames
· Each one of the frames is unique due to the bamboo markings
· Using flax fibre lugs, the frames are constructed using natural materials which makes for great aesthetics and stronger frames
http://www.bamboobike.co/

My questions are:
1. Do you feel that you are concerned about the environment?
2. Would you consider purchasing a bike made out of bamboo? Why?
3. How much would you be willing to pay, on average, for a mountain bike made from bamboo?
4. Do you feel that you would need to test-ride the bike before making a purchasing decision?
5. Would you trust a bike made from bamboo? Why?

Please let me know any additional comments you have on the bikes

cooldad

1 - no
2 - no, because I am not a caveman.
3 - N/A
4 - N/A
5 - N/A

cooldad

ps - whoever does the pricing is on drugs.

bennett_346

1) Yes but a bamboo bike would not make me feel as if i were making a difference, since traditional frame materials such as aluminium and steel are often from recycled sources these days anyway (the manufacturer saves money doing this)
2) No, i have no need to and there are too many unknowns to be leaping into for me to feel it was worthwhile
3) No more than a conventional MTB of similar type
4) Yes, absolutely vital
5) At the moment, absolutely not, but if they had been around for say 5-6 years and had proven themselves, maybe.

Additionally i would just question the kind of person who would choose to buy bamboo over conventional frame materials as i see no benefit at all.

bennett_346

And agree with the comment on pricing - £749 for an ex demo FRAME? Jesus...

supersonic

How much do the frames weigh? What figures do you have for the tensile strength of the bamboo you are using?

cat_with_no_tail

So, this company is using uni students as a free marketing department?

Which university, and what course?

Jolly Swagman

That's nice. What will the pandas eat? Wait till the WWF hear about this. Their wrestlers will rip your heads off.

mcnultycop

People worry about carbon, you've got no chance of getting them on bamboo.

TanTan

Thanks for your comments. I personally don't have anything to do with the making of the bikes, all the information I know is either on the website or in the small paragraph I wrote in my comment. I'm simply just trying to collect some primary research.

supersonic

If you are marketing it, then potential buyers want to know weights, and see research that backs up their claims.

Bamboo has a higher tensile strength than steel
· The natural stiffness of the bamboo is maximised so that it makes one of the stiffest frames
· Bamboo is extremely absorbent of vibrations and bumps in the road meaning that it performs well for performance riding such as mountain biking
· Bamboo tubes have consistent properties which make it an ideal natural material for high-tech applications such as bicycle frames
· Each one of the frames is unique due to the bamboo markings
· Using flax fibre lugs, the frames are constructed using natural materials which makes for great aesthetics and stronger

The website at the minute is just full of unsubstantiated marketing spiel and buzzwords. At £1200 for a frame, people want a product that is better than the rest - where is the evidence? Why would I buy a bamboo frame when I can buy a carbon frame (99% recyclable) for less than £400 that weighs less than 3lbs, some with lifetime warranties?

Without some proper figures, they will just not sell except to a very small minority who will buy them because they are a bit different.

Anyway, to answer your questions:

1: To an extent, yes.
2: No. Because there is no real info on the frames or material, as above.
3: As above - lets see how it stacks up. No more than a competive weighted frame from carbon.
4: Yes.
5: As above, figures, facts, evidence.

TanTan

supersonic wrote:

If you are marketing it, then potential buyers want to know weights, and see research that backs up their claims.

Bamboo has a higher tensile strength than steel
· The natural stiffness of the bamboo is maximised so that it makes one of the stiffest frames
· Bamboo is extremely absorbent of vibrations and bumps in the road meaning that it performs well for performance riding such as mountain biking
· Bamboo tubes have consistent properties which make it an ideal natural material for high-tech applications such as bicycle frames
· Each one of the frames is unique due to the bamboo markings
· Using flax fibre lugs, the frames are constructed using natural materials which makes for great aesthetics and stronger

The website at the minute is just full of unsubstantiated marketing spiel and buzzwords. At £1200 for a frame, people want a product that is better than the rest - where is the evidence? Why would I buy a bamboo frame when I can buy a carbon frame (99% recyclable) for less than £400 that weighs less than 3lbs, some with lifetime warranties?

Without some proper figures, they will just not sell except to a very small minority who will buy them because they are a bit different.

Anyway, to answer your questions:

1: To an extent, yes.
2: No. Because there is no real info on the frames or material, as above.
3: As above - lets see how it stacks up. No more than a competive weighted frame from carbon.
4: Yes.
5: As above, figures, facts, evidence.

At the moment we are just collecting research into peoples' opinions of the bikes and of bamboo being used in bikes. We are aware that there are issues and changes that need to be made in relation to the marketing of the products; this is our assignment brief.

Your comments are useful as they give me an insight into how consumers perceive the products and the company, so thank you for that, I will be able to incorporate this into my report.

supersonic

I guess this is the thing - it is hard to have an opinion with so few details ;-).

Weights are EXTREMELY important!

But as above, if competitive, then why not?

mrmonkfinger

I'm fairly sure that bamboo is used for scaffolding in third world countries, largely because they can't afford to use steel.

Remind me why exactly it is better than alu/steel/carbon?

that said, my opinions on the company spiel:

Bamboo has a higher tensile strength than steel

and aluminium? or carbon/kevlar/other composites?

The natural stiffness of the bamboo is maximised so that it makes one of the stiffest frames

waffle

Bamboo is extremely absorbent of vibrations and bumps in the road meaning that it performs well for performance riding such as mountain biking

If its extremely stiff it isn't absorbing much of anything, although thats a fairly common misconception in bike land.

However, remind me why that is even slightly relevant when riding off road?

Bamboo tubes have consistent properties which make it an ideal natural material for high-tech applications such as bicycle frames

I'm pretty sure metal has more consistent properties.

BTW bike frames aren't high tech. Especially a straightforward double triangle hardtail.

Each one of the frames is unique due to the bamboo markings

so?

Using flax fibre lugs, the frames are constructed using natural materials which makes for great aesthetics and stronger frames

flax fibre, held together with what? why is that good? stronger frames? really? in what way?


seriously, if people can't shoot holes in the ad copy, its good.


your questions

1. somewhat
2. no, because we have metal and carbon widely available and of high quality
3. exactly as much as for one made out of any other material
4. maybe
5. yes

although I doubt I would buy one TBH, the pricing is nuts, and although I don't particularly care what the bike is made out of - its how well it works that matters - I'm unconvinced that bamboo is better in any way than the current common frame materials

Chunkers1980

They use bamboo in Hong Kong for scaffolding.

cooldad

They sell BSO's here made out of scaffolding

Giraffoto

TanTan wrote:

My questions are:
1. Do you feel that you are concerned about the environment?
2. Would you consider purchasing a bike made out of bamboo? Why?
3. How much would you be willing to pay, on average, for a mountain bike made from bamboo?
4. Do you feel that you would need to test-ride the bike before making a purchasing decision?
5. Would you trust a bike made from bamboo? Why?

Please let me know any additional comments you have on the bikes

1. Yes
2. If the price - performance - features combination is right, and I need a new frame, then yes
3. A price commensurate with its performance. Boutique looks and image don't really come into it
4. Yes, unless there were already hundreds of reviews out there
5. Yes, because it's proven technology. But then "trust" doesn't say much - it just means I don't expect it to fall apart. Try asking if I'd expect it to be noticeably better than steel, aluminium or CF (no I don't)

Mtaylor2012

1. Yes, one of the advantages of riding a bike as well as being fun is its good for the enviroment.
2. After proper testing/reviews possibly, but not at that price.
3. Surely it costs less to manufacture than carbon or steel/Alu frames? Therefore the overall costs should be less, whats stated on that website is absolutely ridiculous and i wouldnt touch one with a barge pole at that price.
4. For sure, because all the marketing bull in the world wouldnt make me believe its a smoother ride, soaks up the vibrations better.
5. See point 2, after rigorous testing maybe but safe to say i am pretty skeptical about the idea if im honest.

The Rookie

Many comments as others.....I visited bamboo frame stand at the cycleshow at the NEC and put some of these question to them, the fact they couldn't (and I mean couldn't - it appeared they did not have the answers rather than had them and wouldn't) answer them means their who advertising campaign runs perilously close to breaching the Advertising rules (or blowing them wide apart!

TanTan wrote:

My questions are:
1. Do you feel that you are concerned about the environment?
2. Would you consider purchasing a bike made out of bamboo? Why?
3. How much would you be willing to pay, on average, for a mountain bike made from bamboo?
4. Do you feel that you would need to test-ride the bike before making a purchasing decision?
5. Would you trust a bike made from bamboo? Why?

1. Yes, which is why I ride a bike to work as well as just for pleasure (which isn't!)
2. Yes, if it made sense on a cost/benefit basis - not because of an alleged environmental friendliness of just 1 component of the entire bike - a component that forms around 15% of the entire bike (by weight)
3. Depends on how it matches up to the 3 traditional materials (steel, light metal alloys and carbon fibre)
4. Absolutely yes
5. Depends on the warranty offered and back up to it (Self warranty by almost assetless companies isn't a warranty!)

Clank

supersonic wrote:

The website at the minute is just full of unsubstantiated marketing spiel and buzzwords. At £1200 for a frame, people want a product that is better than the rest - where is the evidence? Why would I buy a bamboo frame when I can buy a carbon frame (99% recyclable) for less than £400 that weighs less than 3lbs, some with lifetime warranties?

Where to start?

Quick aside: Untrue on the CF recycled content, I'm afraid. As recycled material, complete carbon-epoxy systems are about fit for low grade filler material or landfill (not what I would term recycling). IF you strip the resin off you can recover the fibres as very low quality short-strand material, but it's nowhere near as valuable as continuous fibre: this is the kind of thing Trek and Speccy wish to achive with their reclaim proceedures. The math bit however: the fibre content of the average bicycle won't be any more than 55-57% by volume - I'd expect closer to 50.

Having said that, I also call BS on most of the pro-bamboo spiel, too. Unsubstantiated or misrepresented (there's more to material performance than tensile strength - for example aluminium alloys generally have lower tensile properties than steels, yet no one says they make a bad frame).

Flax bio-composite systems are another area that may be being mis-represented, too.

Do I care about the environment? I like to think so. Do I do anything about it? Probably not as much as I should. Would I buy a bamboo frame? No - not based on what everyone trying to sell the stuff is saying - some of which includes the phrase 'twelve hundred quid, please'.

bikaholic

OP, the bamboo bike is over 100 years old - it's good that people are revisiting it.

If you want to know why it didn't catch on, just look back into history. Hopefully, you will be able to draw lessons from it and make bamboo bikes popular this time around.

I have no qualms about riding bamboo framed bikes as I, sort of, built two myself back in the mid 90s. I got the idea from the Raleigh MTrax Ti 1000 and Trek's bonded framed bikes - the lugs sections could easily be had if you cut up an old dented frame...

What interests me now are bamboo frames that are actually grown using bonsai-esque training techniques (where young supple bamboo is manipulated to take on certain shapes). There was a university project doing exactly that and the results looked stunning, albeit the frame formed part of a recumbent buggy/bike.

1. Moderately concerned about environment.
2. Yes, if I can visualise the skill and the labour that went into making it.
3. About the same price as a basic aluminium mountain bike. Of course, I'd pay more for exotic frame finishes and such.
4. Yes, probably.
5. Yes, due to past experience of using bamboo.

ValeTudoGuy

Bamboo has a value of between $24-$150 per metric ton, carbon is $1500-$3000 and requires more time to shape into a frame and that's not including the cost of the resin.

Aluminium Ranges between $300 and $2000 and steel $160 to $1000.

Bamboo is clearly a cheaper product so where does that company get off charging such a premium price? Oh and how do you go about fixing a broken bamboo frame?

Btw as a fisherman I can testify to how well (or should i say poorly) bamboo reacts to exposure to moisture..... Good luck with your overpriced bamboo frame being strait and un-warped after a couple of years maximum.

chez_m356

ValeTudoGuy wrote:

Bamboo has a value of between $24-$150 per metric ton, carbon is $1500-$3000 and requires more time to shape into a frame and that's not including the cost of the resin.

Aluminium Ranges between $300 and $2000 and steel $160 to $1000.

Bamboo is clearly a cheaper product so where does that company get off charging such a premium price? Oh and how do you go about fixing a broken bamboo frame?

Btw as a fisherman I can testify to how well (or should i say poorly) bamboo reacts to exposure to moisture..... Good luck with your overpriced bamboo frame being strait and un-warped after a couple of years maximum.

i wonder if they would supply a pricing structure like this company do

http://www.bamboosero.com/our-story/follow-the-money/

bikaholic

ValeTudoGuy wrote:

Bamboo has a value of between $24-$150 per metric ton, carbon is $1500-$3000 and requires more time to shape into a frame and that's not including the cost of the resin.

Aluminium Ranges between $300 and $2000 and steel $160 to $1000.

Bamboo is clearly a cheaper product so where does that company get off charging such a premium price?

You should understand a little bit about human nature. The high asking price has nothing to do with commodity prices - it's more to do with the creator getting too precious about their creation. What they should do instead is to let the market decide the price.

Oh and how do you go about fixing a broken bamboo frame?

This point is irrelevant since only a very tiny minority even bother to fix a damaged frame - that goes for carbon, aluminium, steel and titanium frames. They would just send it in under warranty or buy a new one.

Btw as a fisherman I can testify to how well (or should i say poorly) bamboo reacts to exposure to moisture..... Good luck with your overpriced bamboo frame being strait and un-warped after a couple of years maximum.

This is a valid point but not as critical as you make it out to be.

A designer/builder chooses the most suitable materials for the application. Just as there are numerous aluminium alloys, there are numerous varieties of bamboo with different characteristics. Since bamboo is a plant, it could probably be genetically modified too.

There are also chemical treatments and surface finishes that help to minimise expansion and contraction due to moisture.

ValeTudoGuy

bikaholic wrote:

This point is irrelevant since only a very tiny minority even bother to fix a damaged frame - that goes for carbon, aluminium, steel and titanium frames. They would just send it in under warranty or buy a new one.

In my opinion the point is totally relevant, if your charging £1200 for a product and list it's individuality or uniqueness among its positives then you are clearly aiming to sell to people who prize sentiment.
How many people who would spend over a grand on a frame that they are sentimental about due to its uniqueness are going to want it repaired if it brakes? I don't know but I suggest it's a higher percentage than consumers looking to pay £500+ for an aluminium frame to thrash or £1000+ for a Carbon frame that they expect to upgrade after a couple years of racing when the next lighter frame comes out.

This is a valid point but not as critical as you make it out to be.

A designer/builder chooses the most suitable materials for the application. Just as there are numerous aluminium alloys, there are numerous varieties of bamboo with different characteristics. Since bamboo is a plant, it could probably be genetically modified too.

There are also chemical treatments and surface finishes that help to minimise expansion and contraction due to moisture.

Tell this to the sport fishing industry because they must be devoid of top quality designers/builders and engineers who haven't been able to master the genetic modifying of the perfect bamboo and simple chemical processes and treatments to make it so hardy.

Oh wait, no that cant be right because the industry has world leading designers and engineers who work on the bleeding edge of composite material technology, like Dr Steve Harrison. Silly him for spending all of his time playing with carbon when a bit of varnish on the old grass sticks would have solved the industries woes when bamboo was king.

DCLane

Thanks to those who've completed this. In marking my students' assignments I'm trying to pick up and respond wherever they've used an online request for data.

And yes, I set them the task as part of an entrepreneurial marketing project for Bamboo Bikes!