surrey league and bdf racing

oldwelshman

So why should I have to pay another fee to join Surrey League to be able to enter BCF races? It is expensive enough to join BCF, then have to pay another fee, before I can even enter a race?
How can they Justify £20 to enter a crit at Dunsfield?
Think I will hunt out LVRC races or just give up BCF races, it's taking the pissss.

jibberjim

oldwelshman wrote:

So why should I have to pay another fee to join Surrey League to be able to enter BCF races? It is expensive enough to join BCF, then have to pay another fee, before I can even enter a race?
How can they Justify £20 to enter a crit at Dunsfield?
Think I will hunt out LVRC races or just give up BCF races, it's taking the pissss.

Because it's a League, and you get benefits from being a member, but you don't have to join the surrey league to race in their races, you can wait until it's open for entry for non-league members and enter then (one of the benefits of membership is early entry). Of course you pay more as a non-league member in that case, but then you're not giving anything to the league so that's fair enough.

For the masters vets series at dunsfold (I'm assuming that's the one and not the 4th cat) you will be able to get in on the day as it's EOL anyway and the circuit limit is very high... You do not need to join the Surrey League though - bear in mind though that you will not get any winnings if you don't though.

oldwelshman

In reality it is a closed shop. If I do not pay the additional "member" fee I do not get entry and if I race at Dunsfold in the masters races I have to pay £20 if I don't join, then if I win I get no prize money. Are they bankers who run this? :-)
So basically I have to join the league to get the "benefit" of my entry being accepted.

maryka

oldwelshman wrote:

In reality it is a closed shop. If I do not pay the additional "member" fee I do not get entry and if I race at Dunsfold in the masters races I have to pay £20 if I don't join, then if I win I get no prize money. Are they bankers who run this? :-)
So basically I have to join the league to get the "benefit" of my entry being accepted.

The Surrey League is a league of clubs who promote races. It's primarily for the racers for those clubs (who help out on the days that their club is promoting). If your team/club isn't promoting races for the league, then frankly the rest of us are happy if you choose not to join and race -- all you're doing is taking race entry spots away from people who DO contribute to the league.

oldwelshman

maryka wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

In reality it is a closed shop. If I do not pay the additional "member" fee I do not get entry and if I race at Dunsfold in the masters races I have to pay £20 if I don't join, then if I win I get no prize money. Are they bankers who run this? :-)
So basically I have to join the league to get the "benefit" of my entry being accepted.

The Surrey League is a league of clubs who promote races. It's primarily for the racers for those clubs (who help out on the days that their club is promoting). If your team/club isn't promoting races for the league, then frankly the rest of us are happy if you choose not to join and race -- all you're doing is taking race entry spots away from people who DO contribute to the league.

Well to be honest that's just crap.
Are you saying that because I happen to live near Surrey and race for a team not in Surrey I should not be allowed to race in events organised by your clubs?
You have no idea what I contribute to cycling it just happens not to be in Surrey.
The team I ride for does a hell of a lot for cycling and sponsoring races and especially supports many youngsters with kit, equipment and bikes, coaching etc just happens not to be in Surrey.
All I was looking for was for a few decent crits to do for training as prep for track.
If everyone thought like you then I guess the track at Newport would make visitors join a "velodrome" league to be eligible to have a go on the track? or charge £5 extra for a session if you don't join?

maryka

oldwelshman wrote:

maryka wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

In reality it is a closed shop. If I do not pay the additional "member" fee I do not get entry and if I race at Dunsfold in the masters races I have to pay £20 if I don't join, then if I win I get no prize money. Are they bankers who run this? :-)
So basically I have to join the league to get the "benefit" of my entry being accepted.

The Surrey League is a league of clubs who promote races. It's primarily for the racers for those clubs (who help out on the days that their club is promoting). If your team/club isn't promoting races for the league, then frankly the rest of us are happy if you choose not to join and race -- all you're doing is taking race entry spots away from people who DO contribute to the league.

Well to be honest that's just crap.
Are you saying that because I happen to live near Surrey and race for a team not in Surrey I should not be allowed to race in events organised by your clubs?
You have no idea what I contribute to cycling it just happens not to be in Surrey.
The team I ride for does a hell of a lot for cycling and sponsoring races and especially supports many youngsters with kit, equipment and bikes, coaching etc just happens not to be in Surrey.
All I was looking for was for a few decent crits to do for training as prep for track.
If everyone thought like you then I guess the track at Newport would make visitors join a "velodrome" league to be eligible to have a go on the track? or charge £5 extra for a session if you don't join?

Nobody's saying you can't race in the Surrey League, we're just saying you need to pay to be a member or pay more to race as a non-member. That's how leagues work. :roll: I think you'll find other leagues like the SERRL are similar.

You're getting your panties in a twist because you think you should be able to pay the discounted entry and get prize money the way that any other racer who races for a club that promotes a race in the Surrey League does, but without being a member whose club promotes. And that's wrong. So either suck it up and pay, or don't race. Simple. No need to stomp up and down listing your palmares of cycling volunteering.

oldwelshman

Not worried about paying entries just don't see why should pay BCF fee, then league fee and entry fee.
Does it really matter where a club promotes races? The whole point of clubs is they promote races UK wide wherever they happen to be. I have been lucky in some areas while working away, to be able to take a bike in the hope of entry and sometimes this is possible.
If every region did this it would mean you would end up with just regional racing and not be able to ride in other areas? Nothing to do with prize money, just was looking for couple of races without breaking the bank!

xixang

i agree with OWM. up here the local league is the same except each club has to pay £50 then each rider pays an additional fee on top before even paying for the actual race! And there generally aren't even prizes, maybe primes and an overall league prize but nothing for individual races. Most affiliated clubs don't even promote an event, so basically most clubs and riders pay a fee purely for preferential entry

Whats wrong with allowing those that want to race as part of the league paying a fee and being eligible for prizes and those that don't just racing?

maryka

xixang wrote:

i agree with OWM. up here the local league is the same except each club has to pay £50 then each rider pays an additional fee on top before even paying for the actual race! And there generally aren't even prizes, maybe primes and an overall league prize but nothing for individual races. Most affiliated clubs don't even promote an event, so basically most clubs and riders pay a fee purely for preferential entry

Whats wrong with allowing those that want to race as part of the league paying a fee and being eligible for prizes and those that don't just racing?

In a nutshell, people who do what you say won't put anything back into the league. They won't promote, they won't marshall, they'll just enter, win prize money and leave. The league is a cooperative, not a business.

Again, if you don't like the Surrey League rules, don't race in the Surrey League. There are plenty of other races you guys can do. The Surrey League is the largest league of its kind in the world, it doesn't need you to agree with it or race in it to keep going. And it's hardly going to change how it works because a couple of anonymous forum whingers don't like it.

racingcondor

You guys clearly have no idea how much time people volunteer to make racing work. Note that's volunteer, it's not a profit making enterprise.

I agree it can be expensive, especially if you don't race often but the idea of the league entry fee is to encourage people to come back for every race and aim for the league title.

Most affiliated clubs don't even promote an event, so basically most clubs and riders pay a fee purely for preferential entry.

Not all clubs promote an event but that doesn't mean they don't provide volunteers if a promoting club is struggling and if for instance, someone burns down the shed which holds all the marshalling equipment a Crystal Palace it will be the affiliated clubs that contribute to the replacements.

oldwelshman

racingcondor wrote:

You guys clearly have no idea how much time people volunteer to make racing work. Note that's volunteer, it's not a profit making enterprise.

I agree it can be expensive, especially if you don't race often but the idea of the league entry fee is to encourage people to come back for every race and aim for the league title.

Most affiliated clubs don't even promote an event, so basically most clubs and riders pay a fee purely for preferential entry.

Not all clubs promote an event but that doesn't mean they don't provide volunteers if a promoting club is struggling and if for instance, someone burns down the shed which holds all the marshalling equipment a Crystal Palace it will be the affiliated clubs that contribute to the replacements.

Of course I have an idea how much time people give and don't need you to tell me. I do a fair bit myself. My point is that I do not see why, when I pay BCF membership, should I have to pay league fees also to get entries. If I did this everywhere I wanted to race when working away it would cost me a fortune to pay these ontop of BCF fees. There are not that many races to enter outsdie SERL and Surrey League and if you do not join its very difficult to get entires so it is like a closed shop. If there were more races it would not be such a huge issue but there is a lack of choice, thats my point.
As you said above, most people pay to get preferential entry which defeats the object surely?

jibberjim

oldwelshman wrote:

There are not that many races to enter outsdie SERL and Surrey League and if you do not join its very difficult to get entires so it is like a closed shop. If there were more races it would not be such a huge issue but there is a lack of choice, thats my point.
As you said above, most people pay to get preferential entry which defeats the object surely?

The weekend road races are filled by members of the clubs that promote the league races - there's not enough space for you to race unless a clubs members which is promoting misses out. Why should you, who does nothing for the league, get preferential treatment over others?

You are free to enter all the midweek crits and handicaps, as they are EOL only and no preference is given to members. So I don't really see what you're missing out on - the occasional weekend event, ones which are over-subcribsed with members racing in any case.

bigmat

I sympathise OWM - its a bit of a closed shop mentality. It would be nice if you could race relatively easily anywhere in the country with the relevant licence and the race entry fee - league fees are a bit of a barrier to that (and to people like me in previous years when I couldn't race regularly enough to justify the licence and league entry on top of the actual entry fee). I would also say that I'd rather see a good mix of clubs represented in a race than a massive block from two or three clubs. Still, I can see the reasons behind it, just seems a bit of a protectionist policy.

oldhairylegs

maryka wrote:

In a nutshell, people who do what you say won't put anything back into the league. They won't promote, they won't marshall, they'll just enter, win prize money and leave. The league is a cooperative, not a business.

^ NAIL/HEAD

It's only £20 to join Surrey League and you get £5 off every race as a member, so you get your money back after just 4 races. Also, clubs affiliated to Surrey League must organise and promote races as part of the deal.

oldwelshman wrote:

......give up BCF races

Do BCF put on any grass roots races?
If it wasn't for the likes of Surrey League and others, together with their affiliated clubs/members, then we wouldn't have much (any?) grass roots racing.

jibberjim

BigMat wrote:

I would also say that I'd rather see a good mix of clubs represented in a race than a massive block from two or three clubs. Still, I can see the reasons behind it, just seems a bit of a protectionist policy.

The Surrey League has a rider limit from a single club in place for very, very popular races - like the stage races.

bigmat

jibberjim wrote:

BigMat wrote:

I would also say that I'd rather see a good mix of clubs represented in a race than a massive block from two or three clubs. Still, I can see the reasons behind it, just seems a bit of a protectionist policy.

The Surrey League has a rider limit from a single club in place for very, very popular races - like the stage races.

I know - I got booted from the stage race I entered. "Ironically" the one Surrey League race I have done I got charged the non member rate even though I had paid the membership fee (ho hum).

colinsmith123

At as vet I can see no real benefit in joining these leagues. As Dai has already said, having paid for BC membership, League joining fees, and then typically £20 race entry it makes for an expensive day out. All LVRC races are £10, so why bother.

Dai, see you at Dunton and Hogg Hill?

fish156

colinsmith123 wrote:

At as vet I can see no real benefit in joining these leagues. As Dai has already said, having paid for BC membership, League joining fees, and then typically £20 race entry it makes for an expensive day out. All LVRC races are £10, so why bother.

Dai, see you at Dunton and Hogg Hill?

I personally don't think £20 to join Surrey League and £15 per race is a "deal-breaker" when compared to the cost of a bike, parts, kit, maintenance, fuel, and the commitment of time to training. Yes, it's nice to pay just £10 for an LVRC race, but there are more races on the road with Surrey League and SERRL plus they're more often or not supported by NEG outriders, which are worth the entry fee alone.

colinsmith123

colinsmith123 wrote:

At as vet I can see no real benefit in joining these leagues. As Dai has already said, having paid for BC membership, League joining fees, and then typically £20 race entry it makes for an expensive day out. All LVRC races are £10, so why bother.

Dai, see you at Dunton and Hogg Hill?

fish156 wrote:

colinsmith123 wrote:

At as vet I can see no real benefit in joining these leagues. As Dai has already said, having paid for BC membership, League joining fees, and then typically £20 race entry it makes for an expensive day out. All LVRC races are £10, so why bother.

I personally don't think £20 to join Surrey League and £15 per race is a "deal-breaker" when compared to the cost of a bike, parts, kit, maintenance, fuel, and the commitment of time to training. Yes, it's nice to pay just £10 for an LVRC race, but there are more races on the road with Surrey League and SERRL plus they're more often or not supported by NEG outriders, which are worth the entry fee alone.

Yes it is a dealbreaker, I've done the maths. There's sufficient LVRC events this season at Hogg Hill, Dunton and the Cyclopark round me to not justify the extra costs. Whilst NEG outriders are a bonus, I'd happily swap this for riders with sufficient bike handling skills to not crash around me, which seems to be lacking in 3rd and 4th cat races. Though of course riders do fall off in LVRC events too, just with less regularity.

maryka

One thing the SL does is give out money to all members at the end, rather than just the winners of events or the top 5/10 from every race or whatever. If you do enough races (not that many, a dozen or so) then you will easily get your £20 back. I know we don't race for money really, but since this thread is about money and cost of racing, you can count on getting more money back from the SL than you would from most other races.

oldwelshman

colinsmith123 wrote:

At as vet I can see no real benefit in joining these leagues. As Dai has already said, having paid for BC membership, League joining fees, and then typically £20 race entry it makes for an expensive day out. All LVRC races are £10, so why bother.

Dai, see you at Dunton and Hogg Hill?

Possibly yes, send me some details I have not got my lvrc or bcf handbook yet as moved. Also looking at crits in Brighton if I can get entry and may trek to Hillingdon for masters every two weeks also. Need to get some speed in.

Dess1e

oldwelshman wrote:

colinsmith123 wrote:

At as vet I can see no real benefit in joining these leagues. As Dai has already said, having paid for BC membership, League joining fees, and then typically £20 race entry it makes for an expensive day out. All LVRC races are £10, so why bother.

Dai, see you at Dunton and Hogg Hill?

Possibly yes, send me some details I have not got my lvrc or bcf handbook yet as moved. Also looking at crits in Brighton if I can get entry and may trek to Hillingdon for masters every two weeks also. Need to get some speed in.

All available on-line OWM, which you would appear to have access to.

To be honest I agree with you re leagues, but the Surrey League at least do allow individual membership. Other leagues based in other regions have some events that are promoted outside their region and expect officials and volunteers whose teammates aren't eligible to enter to officiate.