Call me British but...

EKIMIKE

I just don't get all this (reaction to capturing Boston terrorist suspect):







It's like a weird kind of disaster-induced nationalism. Maybe it's my 'British' sense of dignity and humility that makes it all seem so alien but I can't help but think this is exactly the kind of thing that stokes the fire of ideological hatred against the U.S.

It's a bit of a jump but for me that kind of emphatic, self-aggrandising behaviour combined with the irrationality of nationalism leads to ordinary people going a step too far in their sense of self-confidence: Boston bombing: How internet detectives got it very wrong

You could argue that the reaction of people relates to them being allowed back on the streets after essentially being under a curfew but it's exactly the same reaction as the one to bin Laden's death - no curfew for that.

It makes me wince. Anyone else slightly disturbed by it all?

cornerblock

Had more or less the same feelings myself watching it today, they're a strange breed the Americans. To me and to anyone just switching on the TV you'd be forgiven for thinking that you were looking at a crowd celebrating a Superbowl win or some other sporting event, very odd behaviour.

Frank the tank

I felt very similar, however I remember when the Yorkshire ripper was caught and there was a sense of relief/almost jubilation. Not to the extent of going out on the street like those Bostonians though.

Always strange when you're on the outside looking in, how do you think Americans viewed the British only this very week with mixed reactions to Thatchers death. I would guess they thought it very strange.

chrisaonabike

EKIMIKE wrote:

It makes me wince. Anyone else slightly disturbed by it all?

Not me.

I'm as trad British as they come, but I totally get their reaction.

Boston is quite a small city as American big cities go (I lived there for a while, some years ago), and the sense I get is that the idea of some fcukers randomly blowing up dozens of innocents on a happy occasion like the Boston Marathon really hit them hard. I was at the Brighton Marathon the day before, cheering on my OH, and that brought it all closer to home I can tell you.

Imagine the 7/7 bombers not having been the suicide variety, then a two day curfew over most of London, with a big manhunt resulting in one terrorist dead and then the other one captured after a lot of hard police work (and remember - a cop was killed by those arseholes in Boston. Don't let the fact that the occasional bad thing happens to tarnish the police's reputation over here fool you - they are still the thin blue line between us and the bad guys).

I would have been out cheering the cops myself, and I'm not ashamed to say it. I don't much like the madness of some American excesses (and most Americans aren't like that), but we could do with a bit less snide cynicism in this country.

verylonglegs

Well fair enough you want to give a cop a pat on the back for putting his body on the line but wtf is with the flag waving? The American public are closer to the Islamists they believe they have been fighting for years now than they realise in terms of how brain-washed they are in their 'cause', two cheeks of the same backside.

ballysmate

I totally get where they are coming from. To them it is the most natural thing in the world to rally round the flag in either triumph or diversity, it is the way they are raised. Travel anywhere in the US and the flag is flown the length and breadth of the country. It is something that every single citizen identifies with. They may be Irish American, Italian American, Asian American, Hispanic American, whatever, they ALL consider themselves AMERICAN and proud of it.
Contrast that to the UK and the sense of national identity and pride in the country is not as strong. Some immigrant enclaves here don't even consider themselves to be British, the cultural identity just isn't as strong.
Unless it was a staged event, such as a Jubilee, it would seem absurd to anyone here to walk down the street waving a Union flag, that is just because of the way we have been brought up. But to an American, it is just the way he has been raised.

pinno

The old world vs the new world. If you consider that every Amercian president bar Obama has been elected to office by the bible bashing electorate. It is these christian fundamentalists that drive US domestic and foreign policy:
Teaching evolution as fact is illegal.
A right to bear arms.
A sense of nationalism in a what is essentially a young country that is actually quite fragile and dare I suggest, somewhat contrived.
Its also the home of Neo-liberalism where you are either a 'winner' or a 'loser'.

To the Americans, its COPS 2 Terrorists 1.

The islamic fundamentalists are driven by the clerics and their deliberate misinterpretation of the Quoran to further their own intertwined political and religious ends. I don't see the difference between this lot of fundamentalists and the other.
How do you fight a war against a superpower ? You can't beat them on their own terms so you resort to what we see as illicit, immoral methods. Is a remote controlled Drone dropping bombs on 'targets' any more legitimate than blowing up civilians ?
All's fair in love and war ?

PS Anyone who replies thinking that I condone killing by any means for any reason, is wrong so don't get on some silly bandwagon.

Cleat Eastwood

pinarello001 wrote:

The old world vs the new world. If you consider that every Amercian president bar Obama has been elected to office by the bible bashing electorate. It is these christian fundamentalists that drive US domestic and foreign policy:
Teaching evolution as fact is illegal.
A right to bear arms.
A sense of nationalism in a what is essentially a young country that is actually quite fragile and dare I suggest, somewhat contrived.
Its also the home of Neo-liberalism where you are either a 'winner' or a 'loser'.

To the Americans, its COPS 2 Terrorists 1.

The islamic fundamentalists are driven by the clerics and their deliberate misinterpretation of the Quoran to further their own intertwined political and religious ends. I don't see the difference between this lot of fundamentalists and the other.
How do you fight a war against a superpower ? You can't beat them on their own terms so you resort to what we see as illicit, immoral methods. Is a remote controlled Drone dropping bombs on 'targets' any more legitimate than blowing up civilians ?
All's fair in love and war ?

PS Anyone who replies thinking that I condone killing by any means for any reason, is wrong so don't get on some silly bandwagon.

Funnily enough I've been winding up a group on FB called Christians Against Obama - its a mad mad world my masters.

EKIMIKE

You see, I understand the cops slapping each others backs and high five'ing because they've done a job and done it well, considering they have a suspect in custody. That's why I didn't post any of the many pictures of cops doing as described.

I'd be talking with friends and family about how great it is that the two suspects are either dead or in custody and that justice will hopefully be served but I wouldn't crack out the flag of St. George and start jumping around on the street. That's not to say it's wrong to do that but I can't help but observe a kind of scary undercurrent of nationalism (and I do find nationalism a scary, irrational ideology!) to it all. It's the kind of ideology that fosters conflict not peace. That in itself raises the crucial and obvious question of: Why does the U.S. keep being targeted by terrorists? The answer is of course very complex. More complex than simply blaming the Americans themselves for being how they are but still, I can't help but feel it is a factor however large or small. #

Don't get me wrong, I'm not out for a bit of yank bashing (ZZZZzzzzzZZZzzzzz) - it's more the 'them and us' ideology of nationalism that I'm tapping into. Especially when a few bellends with a heady sense of self-importance go and racially profile a missing kid and label him a suspect. What's more the media jump all over it too.

VTech

As brits we are the opposite so I would ask which is better/worse ?
Most people here dont give a shiatsu about the UK but more about what it can do for them.
Whenever im in the states there are flags on houses and businesses which to me is heart warming, even on St George's day in the UK I reckon 50%+ dont even know what day it is.

dynamicbrick

Patriotism is something Americans are very comfortable with.

The concept of USA is something interesting, given that the vast majority of Americans never even leave their own state. I suppose it could have something to do with the vast size of the place, and the need to belong to something in what is a very large, sparsely populated, and entirely selfish place.

For us Brits it seems a strange thing, but it is worth noting that if you look at any photos of gatherings during the age of the Empire, you'll see the same thing - fervent nationalism, flag waving, and congratulating each other on the good fortune of being British.

It's also worth considering that the white British are all of the same basic descent, with only accent to mark out which bit you're from - whereas white Americans have hugely different geographical roots only a few generations old. Consquently, being British is fairly easily defined in the national self-consciousness (stiff upper lip, fair play, suspicion of the French, not too excitable, emotional repression), whereas for Americans I imagine it's much harder to pin down, hence flag waving and high fiving everywhere.

On the subject of roots, would it be churlish to point out that Boston, with its large Irish descended community, was one of the major fund raisers for NORAID?

FatTed

VTech wrote:

As brits we are the opposite so I would ask which is better/worse ?
Most people here dont give a shiatsu about the UK but more about what it can do for them.
Whenever im in the states there are flags on houses and businesses which to me is heart warming, even on St George's day in the UK I reckon 50%+ dont even know what day it is.

That's because 50% of people in Britain are not British (English I guess for St George's day)

VTech

How many English raise the flag or do anything out of the norm in St George's day then ?

ballysmate

dynamicbrick wrote:

Patriotism is something Americans are very comfortable with.

The concept of USA is something interesting, given that the vast majority of Americans never even leave their own state. I suppose it could have something to do with the vast size of the place, and the need to belong to something in what is a very large, sparsely populated, and entirely selfish place.

For us Brits it seems a strange thing, but it is worth noting that if you look at any photos of gatherings during the age of the Empire, you'll see the same thing - fervent nationalism, flag waving, and congratulating each other on the good fortune of being British.

It's also worth considering that the white British are all of the same basic descent, with only accent to mark out which bit you're from - whereas white Americans have hugely different geographical roots only a few generations old. Consquently, being British is fairly easily defined in the national self-consciousness (stiff upper lip, fair play, suspicion of the French, not too excitable, emotional repression), whereas for Americans I imagine it's much harder to pin down, hence flag waving and high fiving everywhere.

On the subject of roots, would it be churlish to point out that Boston, with its large Irish descended community, was one of the major fund raisers for NORAID?

First off, and I am not suggesting you think differently, no-one in Boston deserves to be attacked in such a way and I don't condone or understand why people would do such acts.
The irony of Boston being targeted by such an attack hasn't been lost on me either. The IRA relied on misguided Irish Americans to raise money in and around Boston. Terrorists fled across the water to avoid arrest.
I would take issue with your description of America as being an 'entirely selfish place' The people I have met, over here and over there have been warm and friendly.
You are correct in asserting that the US tends to be very insular, insofar that the vast majority are not well travelled. I was served in a gift store in Georgia and the lady who served me, whilst being very nice, could not understand how the UK didn't 'have dollars'. Even when I showed her a £20 note to convince her, her immediate thought was that it was worth $20. She didn't appear stupid, and was holding down a responsible job, just blissfully unaware of the wider world. We in Europe tend to be more aware because we can jump on a plane and a hour later we can be in a different culture, listening to a different language. Not so over there.
Americans tend to quickly jump to their country's defence when they think it is being criticised. I was chatting to an American in a bar in Rome. He was obviously travelled and a civil engineer by trade, so also intelligent. I happened to say, what I thought a throwaway remark about America being unlucky to be a Superpower in this era instead of the 1800s when Britain was prominent. All we had to do was send a gun boat to whichever troublespot, knowing that the homeland was safe from attack. He took umbrage and went on about how Americans had done this and that and how great they were. He even told me how Ben Franklin had INVENTED electricity. As I said, he was educated, but still felt the need to defend his homeland, that he erroneously thought was being maligned.

VTech

A lot may come down to trivial things like history at school.
We could spend several lifetimes studying the subject here whilst a 3 year course could cover the USA so on a whole, they would have a better history of their society than us giving them more patriotism of achievement over such a small time.
It's weird really, I own a house that's twice as old as the USA.

Having said that, I love the place. It will be where I live at some point and as each year passes the pull of the place takes a step her grip with both me and the wife. The only major issue is where.

gavbarron

FatTed wrote:

VTech wrote:

As brits we are the opposite so I would ask which is better/worse ?
Most people here dont give a shiatsu about the UK but more about what it can do for them.
Whenever im in the states there are flags on houses and businesses which to me is heart warming, even on St George's day in the UK I reckon 50%+ dont even know what day it is.

That's because 50% of people in Britain are not British (English I guess for St George's day)

And something like 90 odd % of Americans aren't American by descent either.

America is a country that applauds success, be it the business man with a nice car or a national success such as the capture of a fugitive. In the UK however we are a bit less impressed by people doing their job well, we expect a lot from people and then when they don't achieve we take great pleasure in chastising them for it. It's just how we are

VTech

You have a great point. Not only do we chastise those who don't achieve to the highest level, we like to bring them down with a bang after they have achieved. It's the horrid part of British culture.

imposter2.0

VTech wrote:

even on St George's day in the UK I reckon 50%+ dont even know what day it is.

The Welsh/Scots/Irish couldn't give a stuff about St George's day, so don't confuse England with the UK pls.

dynamicbrick

Ballysmate wrote:

dynamicbrick wrote:

Patriotism is something Americans are very comfortable with.

The concept of USA is something interesting, given that the vast majority of Americans never even leave their own state. I suppose it could have something to do with the vast size of the place, and the need to belong to something in what is a very large, sparsely populated, and entirely selfish place.

For us Brits it seems a strange thing, but it is worth noting that if you look at any photos of gatherings during the age of the Empire, you'll see the same thing - fervent nationalism, flag waving, and congratulating each other on the good fortune of being British.

It's also worth considering that the white British are all of the same basic descent, with only accent to mark out which bit you're from - whereas white Americans have hugely different geographical roots only a few generations old. Consquently, being British is fairly easily defined in the national self-consciousness (stiff upper lip, fair play, suspicion of the French, not too excitable, emotional repression), whereas for Americans I imagine it's much harder to pin down, hence flag waving and high fiving everywhere.

On the subject of roots, would it be churlish to point out that Boston, with its large Irish descended community, was one of the major fund raisers for NORAID?

First off, and I am not suggesting you think differently, no-one in Boston deserves to be attacked in such a way and I don't condone or understand why people would do such acts.
The irony of Boston being targeted by such an attack hasn't been lost on me either. The IRA relied on misguided Irish Americans to raise money in and around Boston. Terrorists fled across the water to avoid arrest.
I would take issue with your description of America as being an 'entirely selfish place' The people I have met, over here and over there have been warm and friendly.
You are correct in asserting that the US tends to be very insular, insofar that the vast majority are not well travelled. I was served in a gift store in Georgia and the lady who served me, whilst being very nice, could not understand how the UK didn't 'have dollars'. Even when I showed her a £20 note to convince her, her immediate thought was that it was worth $20. She didn't appear stupid, and was holding down a responsible job, just blissfully unaware of the wider world. We in Europe tend to be more aware because we can jump on a plane and a hour later we can be in a different culture, listening to a different language. Not so over there.
Americans tend to quickly jump to their country's defence when they think it is being criticised. I was chatting to an American in a bar in Rome. He was obviously travelled and a civil engineer by trade, so also intelligent. I happened to say, what I thought a throwaway remark about America being unlucky to be a Superpower in this era instead of the 1800s when Britain was prominent. All we had to do was send a gun boat to whichever troublespot, knowing that the homeland was safe from attack. He took umbrage and went on about how Americans had done this and that and how great they were. He even told me how Ben Franklin had INVENTED electricity. As I said, he was educated, but still felt the need to defend his homeland, that he erroneously thought was being maligned.

I didn't mean the people are selfish - far from it. Indeed, off the beaten track they are some of the friendliest people I've ever met (although I think it helps being British, and therefore automatically one of the good guys). Small town America also has an enviable level of civic pride, which is long lost in Blighty due to the more transient population.

The culture, however, is all about Self. The worship of self-made people, self-made wealth, etc. I think this is why they have a bafflingly strong respect - to us Brits - for those who make sacrifices for the community; firefighters, policemen, armed forces. They also have a baffling deferment to authority or anyone in a uniform - an American would never dream of talking to a policeman the way we do in this country.

Having travelled across and worked in America a lot, the thing which always strikes me is how big, diverse, and essentially empty the place is. As I said, I think this is why Americans are so patriotic - it is often the only connection they have with their nation. The sad irony of all of this is that the vast majority of Americans can't actually pinpoint the USA on an unlabelled globe (even with the political colours and boundaries still present).

Patriotism for Americans is an outward expression of nation, and all they perceive America to represent to the rest of the planet (freedom, wealth, bloody great aircraft carriers). For the British, patriotism is more dialled into the Victorian ideal of 'Play up, Play on, Play the game' of austere stiff-upper lipped explorers unflinchingly and quietly conquering the world in wholly inappropriate clothing with a cricket bat under one arm.

Lastly, returning to the point of the thread - we've had an awful lot of bombs go off in Britain over the centuries. It's far less shocking to us, having grown up with pictures of the Blitz, and under the shadow of the IRA campaigns. Don't forget it was only recently that litter bins returned to London streets after they were removed because the IRA kept putting things that go BANG! in them. Indeed, having grown up in the 80s, my first thought when seeing the replay of the explosion was 'that's not much of a bomb' as the sheer destruction of Bishopsgate or Omagh are what we're used to.

clickrumble

Imposter wrote:

VTech wrote:

even on St George's day in the UK I reckon 50%+ dont even know what day it is.

The Welsh/Scots/Irish couldn't give a stuff about St George's day, so don't confuse England with the UK pls.

I suppose I'm English but I don't give a stuff about St George's day either

Frank the tank

It took the 9/11 bombings to sting the Americans into questioning their funding of the IRA. They saw sense, shame it took such an atrocity though.

Never been to the USA myself but I have spoken to several Americans and I can honestly say every single one of them have been thouroughly decent. I did ask one though in spite of this, why do I find Americans obnoxious,and basically her answer boiled down to as a race they're insular and ignorant of the wider world.

Dynamicbrick makes some very good points, a lot more eloquently than I.

jawooga

EKIMIKE wrote:

Anyone else slightly disturbed by it all?

Funnily enough I'm more comfortable with that than the reaction to when Princess Di was killed.

hipshot

Flag waving is a fundamentally silly activity. Having some vague pride in your country does not benefit your fellow citizens or your country by one iota. It's just a form of tribal bellowing, like a terrace chant.

Cleat Eastwood

hipshot wrote:

Flag waving is a fundamentally silly activity. Having some vague pride in your country does not benefit your fellow citizens or your country by one iota. It's just a form of tribal bellowing, like a terrace chant.

Or if you support Tranmere for terrace chant read 'lone voice sobbing'

hipshot

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

Or if you support Tranmere for terrace chant read 'lone voice sobbing'

I think they're lucky to get that most weekends

the playing mantis

dynamicbrick wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

dynamicbrick wrote:

Patriotism is something Americans are very comfortable with.

The concept of USA is something interesting, given that the vast majority of Americans never even leave their own state. I suppose it could have something to do with the vast size of the place, and the need to belong to something in what is a very large, sparsely populated, and entirely selfish place.

For us Brits it seems a strange thing, but it is worth noting that if you look at any photos of gatherings during the age of the Empire, you'll see the same thing - fervent nationalism, flag waving, and congratulating each other on the good fortune of being British.

It's also worth considering that the white British are all of the same basic descent, with only accent to mark out which bit you're from - whereas white Americans have hugely different geographical roots only a few generations old. Consquently, being British is fairly easily defined in the national self-consciousness (stiff upper lip, fair play, suspicion of the French, not too excitable, emotional repression), whereas for Americans I imagine it's much harder to pin down, hence flag waving and high fiving everywhere.

On the subject of roots, would it be churlish to point out that Boston, with its large Irish descended community, was one of the major fund raisers for NORAID?

First off, and I am not suggesting you think differently, no-one in Boston deserves to be attacked in such a way and I don't condone or understand why people would do such acts.
The irony of Boston being targeted by such an attack hasn't been lost on me either. The IRA relied on misguided Irish Americans to raise money in and around Boston. Terrorists fled across the water to avoid arrest.
I would take issue with your description of America as being an 'entirely selfish place' The people I have met, over here and over there have been warm and friendly.
You are correct in asserting that the US tends to be very insular, insofar that the vast majority are not well travelled. I was served in a gift store in Georgia and the lady who served me, whilst being very nice, could not understand how the UK didn't 'have dollars'. Even when I showed her a £20 note to convince her, her immediate thought was that it was worth $20. She didn't appear stupid, and was holding down a responsible job, just blissfully unaware of the wider world. We in Europe tend to be more aware because we can jump on a plane and a hour later we can be in a different culture, listening to a different language. Not so over there.
Americans tend to quickly jump to their country's defence when they think it is being criticised. I was chatting to an American in a bar in Rome. He was obviously travelled and a civil engineer by trade, so also intelligent. I happened to say, what I thought a throwaway remark about America being unlucky to be a Superpower in this era instead of the 1800s when Britain was prominent. All we had to do was send a gun boat to whichever troublespot, knowing that the homeland was safe from attack. He took umbrage and went on about how Americans had done this and that and how great they were. He even told me how Ben Franklin had INVENTED electricity. As I said, he was educated, but still felt the need to defend his homeland, that he erroneously thought was being maligned.

I didn't mean the people are selfish - far from it. Indeed, off the beaten track they are some of the friendliest people I've ever met (although I think it helps being British, and therefore automatically one of the good guys). Small town America also has an enviable level of civic pride, which is long lost in Blighty due to the more transient population.

The culture, however, is all about Self. The worship of self-made people, self-made wealth, etc. I think this is why they have a bafflingly strong respect - to us Brits - for those who make sacrifices for the community; firefighters, policemen, armed forces. They also have a baffling deferment to authority or anyone in a uniform - an American would never dream of talking to a policeman the way we do in this country.

Having travelled across and worked in America a lot, the thing which always strikes me is how big, diverse, and essentially empty the place is. As I said, I think this is why Americans are so patriotic - it is often the only connection they have with their nation. The sad irony of all of this is that the vast majority of Americans can't actually pinpoint the USA on an unlabelled globe (even with the political colours and boundaries still present).

Patriotism for Americans is an outward expression of nation, and all they perceive America to represent to the rest of the planet (freedom, wealth, bloody great aircraft carriers). For the British, patriotism is more dialled into the Victorian ideal of 'Play up, Play on, Play the game' of austere stiff-upper lipped explorers unflinchingly and quietly conquering the world in wholly inappropriate clothing with a cricket bat under one arm.

Lastly, returning to the point of the thread - we've had an awful lot of bombs go off in Britain over the centuries. It's far less shocking to us, having grown up with pictures of the Blitz, and under the shadow of the IRA campaigns. Don't forget it was only recently that litter bins returned to London streets after they were removed because the IRA kept putting things that go BANG! in them. Indeed, having grown up in the 80s, my first thought when seeing the replay of the explosion was 'that's not much of a bomb' as the sheer destruction of Bishopsgate or Omagh are what we're used to.

excuse the massive tree but this is bang on i think. the point about empire, the insular nature of a lot of americans (by circumstance and geography more than choice, ete etc). i speak to americans on a daily basis through work, both ones over here and those in the states, and even in those who are self depreciating about things such as their patriotism, and can make a joke about it, you can still see its ingrained in them to be that way. also thats how the schools churn them out, rather than making them ashamed of their history like we are these days (all these apologies for the empire and stuff, BS!)

Pross

I can sort of understand it in this situation. Remember, the city was effectively locked down for 24 - 48 hours whilst the police looked for the suspect so they must have been relieved to finally be allowed back out and get on with the everyday life. As has been pointed out up thread though there is certainly an irony that a city that contributed so much to supporting terrorism in the past is behaving in such a way about a home grown terrorist. Maybe in future years when they remember this tragic event they will spare a second or two to remember all those killed by weapons that were partially paid for by donations in the bars of their city.

pinno

I hope we have not adopted this yankeeism 'Lock down' so holywoodish. Dynamickbriky - you missed Canary Wharf. I worked in that building fitting compooters. I hated the place and when the IRA poped it and all the windows broke with thankfully no loss of life, I had to smile.
The thing I remember was the cage lift on the side of the buidling going up at a hell of a rate and not always stopping exactly at the point of departure. I'm digressing... i'll get my coat.

MountainMonster

the playing mantis wrote:

dynamicbrick wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

dynamicbrick wrote:

Patriotism is something Americans are very comfortable with.

The concept of USA is something interesting, given that the vast majority of Americans never even leave their own state. I suppose it could have something to do with the vast size of the place, and the need to belong to something in what is a very large, sparsely populated, and entirely selfish place.

For us Brits it seems a strange thing, but it is worth noting that if you look at any photos of gatherings during the age of the Empire, you'll see the same thing - fervent nationalism, flag waving, and congratulating each other on the good fortune of being British.

It's also worth considering that the white British are all of the same basic descent, with only accent to mark out which bit you're from - whereas white Americans have hugely different geographical roots only a few generations old. Consquently, being British is fairly easily defined in the national self-consciousness (stiff upper lip, fair play, suspicion of the French, not too excitable, emotional repression), whereas for Americans I imagine it's much harder to pin down, hence flag waving and high fiving everywhere.

On the subject of roots, would it be churlish to point out that Boston, with its large Irish descended community, was one of the major fund raisers for NORAID?

First off, and I am not suggesting you think differently, no-one in Boston deserves to be attacked in such a way and I don't condone or understand why people would do such acts.
The irony of Boston being targeted by such an attack hasn't been lost on me either. The IRA relied on misguided Irish Americans to raise money in and around Boston. Terrorists fled across the water to avoid arrest.
I would take issue with your description of America as being an 'entirely selfish place' The people I have met, over here and over there have been warm and friendly.
You are correct in asserting that the US tends to be very insular, insofar that the vast majority are not well travelled. I was served in a gift store in Georgia and the lady who served me, whilst being very nice, could not understand how the UK didn't 'have dollars'. Even when I showed her a £20 note to convince her, her immediate thought was that it was worth $20. She didn't appear stupid, and was holding down a responsible job, just blissfully unaware of the wider world. We in Europe tend to be more aware because we can jump on a plane and a hour later we can be in a different culture, listening to a different language. Not so over there.
Americans tend to quickly jump to their country's defence when they think it is being criticised. I was chatting to an American in a bar in Rome. He was obviously travelled and a civil engineer by trade, so also intelligent. I happened to say, what I thought a throwaway remark about America being unlucky to be a Superpower in this era instead of the 1800s when Britain was prominent. All we had to do was send a gun boat to whichever troublespot, knowing that the homeland was safe from attack. He took umbrage and went on about how Americans had done this and that and how great they were. He even told me how Ben Franklin had INVENTED electricity. As I said, he was educated, but still felt the need to defend his homeland, that he erroneously thought was being maligned.

I didn't mean the people are selfish - far from it. Indeed, off the beaten track they are some of the friendliest people I've ever met (although I think it helps being British, and therefore automatically one of the good guys). Small town America also has an enviable level of civic pride, which is long lost in Blighty due to the more transient population.

The culture, however, is all about Self. The worship of self-made people, self-made wealth, etc. I think this is why they have a bafflingly strong respect - to us Brits - for those who make sacrifices for the community; firefighters, policemen, armed forces. They also have a baffling deferment to authority or anyone in a uniform - an American would never dream of talking to a policeman the way we do in this country.

Having travelled across and worked in America a lot, the thing which always strikes me is how big, diverse, and essentially empty the place is. As I said, I think this is why Americans are so patriotic - it is often the only connection they have with their nation. The sad irony of all of this is that the vast majority of Americans can't actually pinpoint the USA on an unlabelled globe (even with the political colours and boundaries still present).

Patriotism for Americans is an outward expression of nation, and all they perceive America to represent to the rest of the planet (freedom, wealth, bloody great aircraft carriers). For the British, patriotism is more dialled into the Victorian ideal of 'Play up, Play on, Play the game' of austere stiff-upper lipped explorers unflinchingly and quietly conquering the world in wholly inappropriate clothing with a cricket bat under one arm.

Lastly, returning to the point of the thread - we've had an awful lot of bombs go off in Britain over the centuries. It's far less shocking to us, having grown up with pictures of the Blitz, and under the shadow of the IRA campaigns. Don't forget it was only recently that litter bins returned to London streets after they were removed because the IRA kept putting things that go BANG! in them. Indeed, having grown up in the 80s, my first thought when seeing the replay of the explosion was 'that's not much of a bomb' as the sheer destruction of Bishopsgate or Omagh are what we're used to.

excuse the massive tree but this is bang on i think. the point about empire, the insular nature of a lot of americans (by circumstance and geography more than choice, ete etc). i speak to americans on a daily basis through work, both ones over here and those in the states, and even in those who are self depreciating about things such as their patriotism, and can make a joke about it, you can still see its ingrained in them to be that way. also thats how the schools churn them out, rather than making them ashamed of their history like we are these days (all these apologies for the empire and stuff, BS!)

Bit of a random side note on this regarding the police. There are huge differences between police forces between the US and the UK. The only reason the yutes over here talk to the Police the way they do is because they do not really have to fear retaliation. When I first started coming over here I would simply laugh at them if they tried to stop me, what are they going to do, shoot me in the back as I walk away? (I was 15).

There is a lot to be said about the lack of protection and authority for police in the UK, and there is a lot to be said for the over-authority available to police forces in the States. Just wanted to point that out.

MichaelW

The British equivalent to waving flags and chanting YOOO ESSS AYYY is surely the hoards of people, armed with brooms, who came out onto the streets after the London riots to do a bit of tidying up. I expect they had a nice cup of tea as well.