Help getting into racing!

nationharris

Hiya,

would like advice on entering races.

How do I get a cat4 license?

Is there any rules regarding weight/gearing/etc?

What should I expect if I were to enter a race?


Any help really would be great!

danlikesbikes

License you will get from British Cycling - http://www.britishcycling.org.uk

For adult riders gearing is not limited but for junior ranks there are rules.

Weight as in the bike, there is a minimum weight though have yet to attend a race where this was ever considered.

Expect it to be fast, painful, hard, lots of shouting (sometimes), a real learning experience & something that you either think was hard but you want to do again or was too hard for you to want to do again.

If you find out where your local circuit is contact them and see if they do and intro, coaching, or open sessions on the course so you can ride it with other racers and get an idea of what to expect.

Setarkos

Hold your line!
Don't break abruptly!
Ride safely and considerate.
Don't sprint for 53rd place!

danlikesbikes

Setarkos wrote:

Keep your line!
Ride safely and considerate.
Don't sprint for 53rd place!

I'd say sprint for any place as good as a training session, plus teaches you race craft & hopefully can learn from it for next time so instead of racing at the back you learn to place yourself and kick for a higher placing.

Setarkos

Danlikesbikes wrote:

I'd say sprint for any place as good a training session, plus teaches you race craft & hopefully can learn from it for next time so instead of racing at the back you learn to place yourself and kick for a higher placing.

Don't sprint at a race in a bunch or big group if you haven't done a few sprints in groups during training. It's unnecessarily dangerous.

danlikesbikes

Setarkos wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

I'd say sprint for any place as good a training session, plus teaches you race craft & hopefully can learn from it for next time so instead of racing at the back you learn to place yourself and kick for a higher placing.

Don't sprint at a race in a bunch or big group if you haven't done a few sprints in groups during training. It's unnecessarily dangerous.

Think perhaps you misunderstand me.

I agree with you that;
Keep your line!
Ride safely and considerate.
Is good advice, and therefore to;
Sprint for any place as good as a training session, plus teaches you race craft & hopefully can learn from it for next time so instead of racing at the back you learn to place yourself and kick for a higher placing.
Is perfectly safe and considerate to do in a race & compliments what you were advising the OP, if the OP can do both of your first points see no reason why they should not go for a sprint to hone both fitness & tactical knowledge.

Setarkos

Not sure if I fully agree, when you are not used to sprinting and have never done it in a comparably big group you are - even when you are trying to hold the line and ride safely - more prone to make mistakes.
I've seen to many unsafe sprints and my belief is that most of those responsible didn't mean to be dangerous to themselves and others.
That's why: only sprint if you know you can do so safely.

danlikesbikes

Setarkos wrote:

Not sure if I fully agree, when you are not used to sprinting and have never done it in a comparably big group you are - even when you are trying to hold the line and ride safely - more prone to make mistakes.
I've seen to many unsafe sprints and my belief is that most of those responsible didn't mean to be dangerous to themselves and others.
That's why: only sprint if you know you can do so safely.

Yeah think you make a good point & lots of sense (being honest not sarcastic as I know how it might sound)

I'd say that a new rider who can keep their line in a sprint & is capable of doing so needs to do nothing more than that and get on with it and race and sprint. Not sure what else a new racer needs to do or what other mistakes they could make that might cause and accident but it is past midnight and what is they say 'don't feed them after midnight or get them wet'

Think most of the accidents I have seen at races were not caused by either experienced or inexperienced riders keeping their line but caused by riders moving off their line or attempting to get through a gap that does not exists or is simply not big enough for their bike to fit in.

Agree that riding in a group is a good thing to do generally for the experience, but I know people who do not ride in groups and are fit enough to hold race pace and more sensible in their riding than some people of the same fitness who have ridden in groups and quite simply turn into chumps when they go racing and cause accidents.

maryka

Join a club, OP, and get some real-life advice rather than off the internet. Otherwise you risk being yet another liability on a bike in a race, causing crashes and possibly injuring yourself and others.

Racing bikes isn't just some lark you "give a go" on some Saturday afternoon. It's a real sport with real danger and real consequences for poor decisions. So please get some group riding experience (if you don't already) with experienced riders in close quarters before you line up with 50 others in a race.

I'd say this to every single person who want to get into racing, I'm not picking on the OP.

bigmat

Joining a club is definitely a good idea, but I'm curious whether other racers genuinely think even a fast club run in any way replicates a race environment? My club is pretty big and we have a decent turnout on chaingang rides, but its nowhere near as daunting as riding in a group in a race. We don't tend to have bunch sprints either - maybe the occasional unspoken duel up a climb or two, but certainly nothing like you'd get at the end of Hillingdon / Cyclopark etc. I'm not sure at what point you could class yourself as an experienced sprinter until you'd actually had a go in a few races - its the best and realistically only way to learn to be honest.

Setarkos

You never do a flat sprint to a road sign or some landmark or something?

jibberjim

BigMat wrote:

Joining a club is definitely a good idea, but I'm curious whether other racers genuinely think even a fast club run in any way replicates a race environment?

We do rides which replicate the speeds of 4th cat racing in a small group, so while you don't get used to being surrounded by other riders you do get used to the speeds and cornering and avoiding holes etc. at high intensities (higher than race intensities 'cos of the small group of course)

We also have once a year a training day at hillingdon where specific bunch skills are done.

Joining a club also means there are people who can tell you if you're doing things wrong / dangerously before you're doing them in the middle of 80 people. If you can't ride safely on a club run, you're certainly not ready to race.

bigmat

jibberjim wrote:

BigMat wrote:

Joining a club is definitely a good idea, but I'm curious whether other racers genuinely think even a fast club run in any way replicates a race environment?

We do rides which replicate the speeds of 4th cat racing in a small group, so while you don't get used to being surrounded by other riders you do get used to the speeds and cornering and avoiding holes etc. at high intensities (higher than race intensities 'cos of the small group of course)

We also have once a year a training day at hillingdon where specific bunch skills are done.

Joining a club also means there are people who can tell you if you're doing things wrong / dangerously before you're doing them in the middle of 80 people. If you can't ride safely on a club run, you're certainly not ready to race.

All true - definitely you should be able to ride on a fast club run without difficulties, but its still a step up to a race (in terms of riding in a bunch - our faster chaingangs can be a lot harder than a 4th cat race). I was just thinking about the suggestion that you shouldn't sprint in a race until you have sprinting experience - seems like a bit of a chicken / egg situation as I don't think you can really get that experience outside of a race.

@Setarkos - I only really do our evening chain gangs and generally the only "competitive" bits are a long uphill drag (flat sprint at the top, but there's generally no bunch by then) and a short sharp sprint uphill towards the end (again, tends to be a handful who feel strong / can be bothered rather than a big bunch). Not sure if there are sprints on the weekend runs but I doubt it.

displacedaussie

BigMat wrote:

I was just thinking about the suggestion that you shouldn't sprint in a race until you have sprinting experience - seems like a bit of a chicken / egg situation as I don't think you can really get that experience outside of a race.

I think the bigger problem is people sprinting for 50th place. New to racing, tired at the end of the race, and sprinting between (and through) people who have already sat up.

danlikesbikes

displacedaussie wrote:

BigMat wrote:

I was just thinking about the suggestion that you shouldn't sprint in a race until you have sprinting experience - seems like a bit of a chicken / egg situation as I don't think you can really get that experience outside of a race.

I think the bigger problem is people sprinting for 50th place. New to racing, tired at the end of the race, and sprinting between (and through) people who have already sat up.

Fair point made.

Conversely most of the accidents at our local circuit are often caused in initial 15 laps where racers are scared of getting dropped realise they are on the wrong wheel and then try to force their way through to get on the right wheel.

Or the last 3rd of the race where racers are in a bunch and worried about loosing out and make poor decisions including forcing their way through to get position or just trying to get the jump on a group coming into corners by going down the outside far to fast as the group are slowing slightly/no long accelerating and running into the group as they crash back into the group and take people out with them

Setarkos

BigMat wrote:

@Setarkos - I only really do our evening chain gangs and generally the only "competitive" bits are a long uphill drag (flat sprint at the top, but there's generally no bunch by then) and a short sharp sprint uphill towards the end (again, tends to be a handful who feel strong / can be bothered rather than a big bunch). Not sure if there are sprints on the weekend runs but I doubt it.

I does seem to be less common in the UK but nevertheless I practice sprints towards the end of group rides quite often. Sometimes a 1-on-1 side by side no tactics involved sprint but also agreeing on a suitable finish that everybody knows (eg. traffic sign) beforehand and doing an actual group sprint. I think that's ideal for inexperienced riders because there is nothing to win and the more experienced riders can call it off or pull out and then explain what was done wrong afterwards and try again.

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

I does seem to be less common in the UK but nevertheless I practice sprints towards the end of group rides quite often.

Our club used to it all the time, but the newer cyclist who are now overwhelming the club seem to just not do it much at all, None of the Cat 2's in the club do it - I think they're scared of being beaten, lots of the riders also ride extremely negatively up hills, just staying glued to the back of who they percieve to be the stronger climber. The only competition appears to be the aim not to lose face by being dropped, I still ride with the aim of getting dropped (ie ride as close as I can to the limit so that I may break...)

alihisgreat

nationharris wrote:

Hiya,

would like advice on entering races.

How do I get a cat4 license?

Is there any rules regarding weight/gearing/etc?

What should I expect if I were to enter a race?


Any help really would be great!

I wrote up my thoughts about my first race a few weeks ago here: http://twohundredandsomethingwatts.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/race-report-phil-corley-cycles-day-at.html

might be worth a read.

Setarkos

jibberjim wrote:

Our club used to it all the time, but the newer cyclist who are now overwhelming the club seem to just not do it much at all, None of the Cat 2's in the club do it - I think they're scared of being beaten, lots of the riders also ride extremely negatively up hills, just staying glued to the back of who they percieve to be the stronger climber. The only competition appears to be the aim not to lose face by being dropped, I still ride with the aim of getting dropped (ie ride as close as I can to the limit so that I may break...)

Well, some people win training rides others win races

Just kidding, if it works for you I'm the least to judge. Personally during the season I prefer to do the intense rides by myself and practice sprints at the end of steady endurance group rides - also because you can do about 5 after an endurance ride whereas when you're riding at your limit it won't be more than 1 or 2.

I think Greg LeMond once said you should finish off every training ride with a sprint.

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

Just kidding, if it works for you I'm the least to judge. Personally during the season I prefer to do the intense rides by myself and practice sprints at the end of steady endurance group rides - also because you can do about 5 after an endurance ride whereas when you're riding at your limit it won't be more than 1 or 2.

Our steady endurance group rides tend to be 4 hours at 290+ NP, still finish 'em off with a few sprints, from your description yours are a bit easier? But I just don't have the time for those... Certainly managed more than 5 today, of course I suspect my sprints aren't producing the same numbers as you.

Setarkos

I'm rarely doing 4h 290+ NP rides during the season when I'm focusing on racing (or ever for that matter :oops: )
Actually I don't even produce such numbers in races - what's your FTP? - that's about 300TSS :shock: I think for most people (you may be different) who race on the weekends that is way too hard and if your club rides are like that I understand that many riders ride more conservatively.
My training is a bit more polarized; either intervals (on my own) or L2/L3 as group rides - sometimes 60-90min chain gangs, although I'm not a fan.
When I'm as tired as in a race (eg. after a hard group ride) and then put everything into a sprint as I would in a race I'm gasping for air and can repeat that maybe once more after 10mins of 100W... After 3h L2/L3 I'm happy to do a few sprint drills - so in terms of practicing sprints I think that's more efficient.
(Anything below 1100W (70kg) doesn't count as a sprint )

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

I'm rarely doing 4h 290+ NP rides during the season when I'm focusing on racing (or ever for that matter :oops: )
Actually I don't even produce such numbers in races - what's your FTP? - that's about 300TSS :shock:

~335ish but I guess that's the point, it barely compromises a subsequent ride at all, so I might as well do that as ride easier...

Setarkos wrote:

When I'm as tired as in a race (eg. after a hard group ride) and then put everything into a sprint as I would in a race I'm gasping for air and can repeat that maybe once more after 10mins of 100W...

Interesting, I can churn out sub 10second sprints pretty regularly home at 80-90% of peak - I am very biased to CP sprinting, and if I have to do longer intervals (anything over ~550w for a minute is a single effort for the day and I have to crawl home)

Setarkos

jibberjim wrote:

~335ish but I guess that's the point, it barely compromises a subsequent ride at all, so I might as well do that as ride easier...

You do seem to be weird so the following might not apply to you
There is a formula (origin not known to me) for what IF you can maintain for what duration being IF=0.95^(t-1) (t is time in hours). According to that formula that ride (290W NP for 4h) should be absolutely your limit - otherwise your FTP is set too low...

CP1 550W with an FTP of ~335W... you seem to have a funny power profile

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

According to that formula that ride (290W NP for 4h) should be absolutely your limit - otherwise your FTP is set too low...

But it ain't if you do the other calcs (365 CP20 is pretty solid) What is true though is how easy I can produce NP busters... I think it's because of the high contribution of power from Creatine Phosphate stores, which can be restored while still riding. So I actually suspect it's just an NP Buster for the duration in effect.

Setarkos wrote:

CP1 550W with an FTP of ~335W... you seem to have a funny power profile

I've done over 650 three times in 4 years with a PM so it's actually higher, it's just the any effort over 550 floors me to the extent of crawling home afterwards.

saprkzz

OMG!.. I thought I was into cycling and knew my stuff, but these last few posts make me think i have logged onto the wrong forum!!.. Physics?? :roll:

A guy said to me the other day he has stripped all computers from his bike, when he is racing he was getting so blinded by stats, its all he was thinking and lost the enjoyment of it, he now races for the fun, and the only thing that matters is he beats the guy sprinting next to him!

Setarkos

jibberjim wrote:

But it ain't if you do the other calcs (365 CP20 is pretty solid) What is true though is how easy I can produce NP busters... I think it's because of the high contribution of power from Creatine Phosphate stores, which can be restored while still riding. So I actually suspect it's just an NP Buster for the duration in effect.

I'd be inclined to suspect a higher FTP. NP busters should only be possible to produce when you aim to do so and otherwise only on very rare occasions.
I almost always underestimate my FTP when I use Coggan's 20min test because I simply can't recruit my anaerobic capacity within such an interval. I like to use the Monod-Scherrer method - that also makes testing easier because the length of the interval isn't fixed so if you were pacing too low for 20min you can keep going or you can abort after 15min.
One interval of 3-5min and one of 15-30min is needed for the method.

saprkzz wrote:

OMG!.. I thought I was into cycling and knew my stuff, but these last few posts make me think i have logged onto the wrong forum!!.. Physics?? :roll:

A guy said to me the other day he has stripped all computers from his bike, when he is racing he was getting so blinded by stats, its all he was thinking and lost the enjoyment of it, he now races for the fun, and the only thing that matters is he beats the guy sprinting next to him!

We are just not good enough for that so we get into the numbers
But we have gone way off topic indeed... :roll:

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

I like to use the Monod-Scherrer method - that also makes testing easier because the length of the interval isn't fixed so if you were pacing too low for 20min you can keep going or you can abort after 15min.
One interval of 3-5min and one of 15-30min is needed for the method.

Gives 335 too... And I've plenty of maximal efforts in those ranges...

Setarkos

okay - that's plenty anyway